Is it time to move on from Recluse and Statesman? (non-doom post)
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2010-06-25 06:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I am a (mostly) redside player and I like Lord Recluse. And no, I do not consider him overused. The Arachnos as an organization is overused redside but that is different. The patron arcs should (at some point) be remade to use the new non-linear dialogue/mission system however.
As for GR content, I expect primal earth characters will have a low profile with most attention centered on Praetoria(ns). And the morality missions need to be (at least somewhat) generic and repeatable so probably no major-NPC-centered storylines there.
I do hope there is at least one mission where Arachnos are shown providing (deniable) cross-dimensional assistance to the Resistance. Lord Recluse will deal with anyone if he can profit from it and undermining someone as dangerous as Tyrant is well worth the cost.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
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See, that's what I actually like about him. That's his whole purpose for existing! It's very Silver-Age "comic booky". |
JJDrakken doesn't like the cliche homage: Then there Lord Nemesis, Look at me! Im a Attention *****! WEEEE!, Im involved in everything there has ever been, Im a walking Plot Device when everyone else is way to lazy to come up with something, so I must of did it! -sighs- I just want to take a power drill to his face for like 3hrs, then see if he wants to continue saying he's center of every damn thing anyone has ever done. |
I still chuckle every time I get "It's all a Nemesis plot!" or "Not everything is a Nemesis plot" for a Mission Tip.
Dec out.
Yes... I have to say that Nemesis is great. Maybe it's just that I have a bias for Steampunk, but he's definitely genre-appropriate and fills his role nicely. The business about his being behind or not behind every plot, and doing totally ridiculous things with steam, is campy fun, with great style. It's essentially everything that is fun about the superhero universe concept.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Good point... though in art like the NCSoft promo with GW, Aion, and States back to back, it just feels like he is very... tacky next to other game mascots. But that's just a vibe I get from it, and I have no idea if others would react the same way. That's why I brought up the visually interesting heroes, though I can definitely understand why a generic hero could be considered an advantage.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Well that's just it, yes, Statesman looks generic, but it kind of drives home the image and mindset that this game has super heroes, perhaps a bit redundantly so, but none-the-less if its one thing I can say about States, it's that his image is almost as synonymous with "Super Hero" as Superman's.
Well, okay not quite, but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm pretty sure if you see Statesman, you'll know he's a super hero. |
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Recluse has always disappointed me, and it's probably part of the reason I've never been able to get into playing a villain. I always found it to be fairly odd that with the large variety of villains available in the game to make CoV's franchise, the writers decided to come up with some new villain and did a massive retcon to shoehorn him into the CoH gameworld. (Seriously, I love how the Rogue Isles are this horrible place and Lord Recluse is Statesman's number one enemy, yet you never heard about him until CoV came about. It was like when Dawn suddenly showed up on Buffy, and everyone acted like she has been there all along).|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Absolutely Recluse should be largely ignored if not killed off. Either way, that story pretty much is done as of the patron arcs, so continuation would not involve him anyway. Future villain arcs should be more like the excellent i17 arcs, more self-focused without loyalty assumptions.
As for Paragon, it makes sense that the story went to Praetoria with GR coming up, but if the slowly approaching storm plays any role in coming issues, it will probably be in primal earth. |
I couldn't say I'd be sorry to see him die, but like Golden Girl points out, that would require a lot of rewriting on redside.
But then, I'd love for any of the main cast to do something. Aside from Manticore and Sister Psyche getting together, they're pretty static, unevolving characters. When CoV was coming out, I thought it woud've been cool to have one of Freedom Phalanx (or their sidekicks) defect. Malaise would've been perfect for this since he was previously a villain and he'd also been replaced as the trainer in IP. With Going Rogue coming out, it'd be great to see something like that come about just so a character can change in some part.
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Originally Posted by Xzero45
Gotta agree with this. I never agreed with the idea that we all play a game and design our own sometimes-well-though-out characters only so that we can be second banana to the Dev's heroes and villains at every turn. That just never sat well with me.
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Villain side, on the other hand, is something that's been complained about pretty much since CoV launched. It's sort of sad, because all the interviews about CoV had this theme of "proactive, not reactive". That is, heroes are reactive, because they respond to crime. But villains are proactive, because they are the ones causing the trouble. It didn't really live up to that, maybe mostly because you're constantly being told what to do while being under someone's thumb. But then, I think RPGs tend to be more reactive in general, so I can sympathize with the dev's trying to come up with a way to tell the story.
I like Lord Recluse... I don't like Red Side... Red Side isn't Villainy... You are an operative of the Rogue Isles.
For Villains to be Villains they need to be in paragon and be able to do dynamic content where you get an idea for a plan and go in and do several missions in self created/auto generated arc where you collect items/people to bring a plan to fruition. With this system your base should get bigger and better as you level up too as you would be accumulating this stuff over time.
Blue side... Statesman is missing if I remember right >.>
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Might also be that Statesman is just such a sharp juxtaposition wearing brightly colored skin-tight clothing next to... Women in skin-tight clothing/armor.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Good point... though in art like the NCSoft promo with GW, Aion, and States back to back, it just feels like he is very... tacky next to other game mascots.
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But I do understand what you mean.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Last I checked, he was standing in IP sending groups of 50's off to beat the snot out of Recluse because he's too lazy to do it himself. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
Blue side... Statesman is missing if I remember right >.>
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There in lies the problem.
Blueside you could kill off/write out Statesman without too much hastle, remove him from the RV Hero spawn list, bump up one of the other Freedom Phalanx to give you the Statesman Taskforce and do 'something' with Maria Jenkins arc. He's not tied to a huge overall plot that runs through City of Heroes.
Now Recluse and Arachnos are the opposite, they're tied to a huge storyline that runs through all levels of City of Villains, killing off Recluse would involve the following:
1) Major rewrite of quite a large number of arcs due to the fact that Arachnos is nolonger a single unified front (it's only the power of Recluse and the Arbiters that stop it tearing itself apart, this is said a LOT ingame) and would have splintered into individual factions behind each Patron.
2) There's now no reason to stop any of the patrons (apart from Sircocoo who wants to make the world a cartoony shiney happy place with no evil whatsoever) from doing what they plan to do in their patron arcs since there would be no Arbiter Daos to tell you to go stop them 'or else'. All but one of the Patrons goals simply run against Arachnos and Lord Recluse, it's the only reason you stop them ESPECIALLY Ghost Widow.
3) With the factions splintered Grandville would have to be completely redone, that statue of Recluse wouldn't stay standing long and it would be turned into the main warzone between the four Arachnos factions.
4) In the confusion it's rather obvious the power structure of the Isles would shift, the Arachnos war would leave a massive power vacumn and villains like Nemesis or the Council or even good old Dr Aeon himself would try to grab a piece. I imagine Dr Aeon would set himself up as scientific ruler of Cap Au.
Unfortunately by making almost everything in City of Villains tied to Arachnos and therefore Recluse, it makes it hell to remove him from the game.
I wouldn't remove Recluse, I would restrict him to Grandville. I would have Vanguard, Longbow, and even the PPD move into the outlying islands and make them into respectable looking neighborhoods, and give villains the chance to operate outside of the influence of Arachnos.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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You kidding? They can't even do that successfully with Nerva Archipelago. Longbow is there in huge numbers, but because Arachnos is out of the picture, everyone else like the Family, Council, 5th Column, and Crey is squabbling over the place. To try to do that to the rest of the Isles would place those silly do-gooders in over their heads.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I wouldn't remove Recluse, I would restrict him to Grandville. I would have Vanguard, Longbow, and even the PPD move into the outlying islands and make them into respectable looking neighborhoods, and give villains the chance to operate outside of the influence of Arachnos.
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An alternative would be simply not using Recluse in most new arcs, like i17 did, and especially things like incarnates or a new high level zone (if villains ever get one, and it's possible what with the incarnate system) that's independent.
It would take just some minor text edits to make much of it less insulting:
A couple newspaper intros
Some occasional random jobs that mention loyalty or fear of them
Etc.
Many of them are not plot-critical or would be just a few words. The community could probably compile a list from ParagonWiki.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Your kidding right? This was an RP-based statement right? Narratively, anything is possible. These areas would be ours for the taking, not just us beating up on other villain groups. This would give us the opportunity to fight costumed hero NPCs along with the regular hero groups like i should have been in the first place. Missions where we can create our own destinies and not those of lackies of lackies.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
You kidding? They can't even do that successfully with Nerva Archipelago. Longbow is there in huge numbers, but because Arachnos is out of the picture, everyone else like the Family, Council, 5th Column, and Crey is squabbling over the place. To try to do that to the rest of the Isles would place those silly do-gooders in over their heads.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Clearly, but it's also an example of the potential consequences that could be repeated. I find it beyond my stretch of belief that Longbow and some other hero group could successfully reform other Isles when they can't even get Nerva successfully straightened out.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
This was an RP-based statement right?
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Nerva is just what more of the isles should be, other than having the 2 most common groups populating most of it. It's like a mix of anarchy and rogueness.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
You kidding? They can't even do that successfully with Nerva Archipelago. Longbow is there in huge numbers, but because Arachnos is out of the picture, everyone else like the Family, Council, 5th Column, and Crey is squabbling over the place. To try to do that to the rest of the Isles would place those silly do-gooders in over their heads.
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Originally Posted by Cantatus
because all the interviews about CoV had this theme of "proactive, not reactive". That is, heroes are reactive, because they respond to crime.
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A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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I frankly agree, but if you noticed the post I was replying to promoted Paragon City hero groups coming in and successfully reforming the area, I found it to be too incredulous an idea simply because of what we've seen in Nerva. Longbow has more resources than God, but it still can't bring order to Nerva; how does the other guy expect them to bring order to any other island?
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Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Nerva is just what more of the isles should be, other than having the 2 most common groups populating most of it. It's like a mix of anarchy and rogueness.
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I think it's simply a matter of having a mandate to do so. They do have all the resources to take over Nerva, but no mandate to do so. Their presents amounts to nothing more than embassy duty with all the off-the-books operations that go along with it. The Rogues are still sovereign, but all that could change, especially if Recluse ever crosses paths with Vanguard. Imagine if Mako sank a Vanguard sub or if Black Scorpion got caught trying to sell nuclear weapons to terrorists? Good by UN protection, hello occupation!
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I frankly agree, but if you noticed the post I was replying to promoted Paragon City hero groups coming in and successfully reforming the area, I found it to be too incredulous an idea simply because of what we've seen in Nerva. Longbow has more resources than God, but it still can't bring order to Nerva; how does the other guy expect them to bring order to any other island?
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Um... I seem to recall that Nerva Archipelago isn't even part of the official Rogue Isles as a country. That's how Longbow was able to build and maintain that big honkin' base they have there in Agincourt. So technically, they already have taken over Nerva and they're still unable to keep it from being a warzone.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I think it's simply a matter of having a mandate to do so. They do have all the resources to take over Nerva, but no mandate to do so. Their presents amounts to nothing more than embassy duty with all the off-the-books operations that go along with it. The Rogues are still sovereign, but all that could change, especially if Recluse ever crosses paths with Vanguard. Imagine if Mako sank a Vanguard sub or if Black Scorpion got caught trying to sell nuclear weapons to terrorists? Good by UN protection, hello occupation!
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you know, had you asked me a year and a half ago about tyrant, i would have snarled at you and called the whole endgame of the goatee paragon nonsense to be garbage, seeing how the reboot of tyrant to being this multi-textured and nuanced shows me that they could make states and recluse pop again, they just haven't yet. there are a lot of really cool threads of storyline out there with things like the sleeper under dark astoria, merluna's silence, the coming storm, the game is rife with plot potential, so so it really depends on what hey choose to deal with.
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Actually, it would be really cool to see what actual armies are really like in the City of universe.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Good bye UN protection, hello occupation!
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I see a nasty cross of Vanguard, Malta, and PPD. Debuffs galore peppered with hit from a sapper for those pesky super foes, and then everyone gets flattened by hails of gunfire, grenades, and rockets.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Well it's been mentioned that the general level of invulnerability is set at 'can survive one or two direct hits from a tank at most' level as opposed to superman or Apex complete invulnerability.
During World War 2 lots of heroes died when they went with a frontal assault approach using them enmasse against the Germans. So instead used them as commando units.
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To be overly critical, I'm not particularly wild about Tyrant being "rebooted". It sort of goes along the lines of what I said with Lord Recluse. The game already has tons of fantastic characters, so it feels like a missed opportunity to essentially create a new character by retconning an old one.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
you know, had you asked me a year and a half ago about tyrant, i would have snarled at you and called the whole endgame of the goatee paragon nonsense to be garbage, seeing how the reboot of tyrant to being this multi-textured and nuanced shows me that they could make states and recluse pop again, they just haven't yet. there are a lot of really cool threads of storyline out there with things like the sleeper under dark astoria, merluna's silence, the coming storm, the game is rife with plot potential, so so it really depends on what hey choose to deal with.
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I suppose it also strikes me as odd to have an expansion revolve around the Praetorians when they've never really been that significant of an enemy.
Not that I won't get it because of the lore or anything, just nitpicking.
That's actually a rather good point. Why does Going Rogue involve Praetoria? I'm guessing it's because expansions are expected to have new zones, and there was a desire for another low level option, but it probably would have been just as good to remake the existing zones.
The devs have said that proper zone revamps can be as involved as adding zones, so they want to add zones instead, but I disagree. Faultline is one of the best zones now, and it's easy to argue that bad zones are a detriment not an asset. David Nakayama said that the desire for revamped zones came through loud and clear with his topics, so maybe philosophy has shifted. That's not to say that there is no need to add zones, of course.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Wait... It's that a direct contradiction of what you just said?|
Originally Posted by Cantatus
To be overly critical, I'm not particularly wild about Tyrant being "rebooted". It sort of goes along the lines of what I said with Lord Recluse. The game already has tons of fantastic characters, so it feels like a missed opportunity to essentially create a new character by retconning an old one.
I suppose it also strikes me as odd to have an expansion revolve around the Praetorians when they've never really been that significant of an enemy. Not that I won't get it because of the lore or anything, just nitpicking. |
You said that you were annoyed with City of Villains for shoehorning in a new villain and enemy faction.
But here you're saying you're annoyed with GR for using an existing faction?
Am I reading this right?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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YES, Im so tired of our Mega Gods, standing around telling me I need to do something, while they lounge about & clean their ears out with pen caps...srsly..
Sometimes they show up, respond with remarks like, What? Why are you Here?!? Ok lets fight, then we kick there butt & they go back to lounging with a Mai Tai & demand we do more work for their lazy *****.
Can we add Nemesis to this list too? Honestly...I wan't to see other people step & see their take on things, like Gryfalcon or some lesser Hero's. Im tired of Freedom Phalanx & the Vindicators, they mostly do jack & expect everyone else to clean up after them.
All of Arachnos, really? they do nothing really. They hang out & yell at each other & aimlessly walk bout into walls. So much for anything remotely close to conquering anything, I mean they haven't even conquered their own ability to get past the doughnut section of a store, let alone anything else these days.
Then there Lord Nemesis, Look at me! Im a Attention *****! WEEEE!, Im involved in everything there has ever been, Im a walking Plot Device when everyone else is way to lazy to come up with something, so I must of did it! -sighs- I just want to take a power drill to his face for like 3hrs, then see if he wants to continue saying he's center of every damn thing anyone has ever done.
JJ
I delete more 50s, then you'll ever have.
http://www.pandora.com/people/jjdemon