states v countries


Blue Rabbit

 

Posted

Ok now im going to sound really stupid here today [more so than usual!] but here it goes.

Today in work i was bored and thought i'ld start a little mini game, something i used to play as a kid in those long car journies. Where you all take it in turns letter by letter to go through the alphabet saying a word that starts with that letter. For example i said lets do countries so would go like this

Me: Australia
Person2: Brazil
Person3: Canada

etc etc,

Now when it got to W somebody obviously said Wales however one person was having none of it since we wouldnt allow states and just purely "official countries", which got me thinking . . . . . what is the difference between a state and a country and does that make the UK a country or a mini continent as such since it has a cluster of countries inside it?


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Posted

I'm not an expert on these things, but the word 'country' is often used synonymously with 'state' and 'nation'. The three terms do refer to different things though.

Here are a few quick definitions:

State = Political entity
Nation = Cultural entity
Country = Geographical area

Applying this to the UK:

The UK is both a sovereign state and a nation, uniting the four constituent countries under one state; each of these being their own nations due to cultural differences. Wales and the other constituent countries are not states because none of them have a complete administration and therefore are not recognised by the UN as separate political entities. However, each constituent can count as a different country as they all have their own borders separating the geographical areas.

This only matters if you recognise each of those three terms as their own words and not simply synonyms. If you use them as synonyms then no, Wales is not a country, nor is it a state or a nation. Neither are Scotland, England and Northern Ireland.

I've probably missed some crucial historical and political details, but this is from a semasiological perspective.


 

Posted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states
203 entries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...r_Associations
208 entries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...nt_territories
Dependent territories contain entities that some folks would routinely think of as a country in their own right (eg Greenland, Aruba, or Montserrat)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1
ISO Country codes - 246 entries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IOC_country_codes
Olympic country codes - 205 entries

For the UK and other similar entities, see the constituent country entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_country



(Being a leader in Global Heroics on Triumph I have to be well versed in the various differences between 'countries' and other political entities. Every member is Mr/Ms <Countryname>, the prefix being slightly adjustable -Ms Miss Ms. Miss. etc being acceptable)



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Posted

But do any of those apply to states in the US sense?

They were probably called states rather than provinces or whatever because there was supposed to be relative autonomy, like a group of nations, and one of the debates of the time was just how federalist they should be.


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Posted

Well, all of my English teachers always taught me that the United Kingdom is a kingdom constituted by four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. So I think your reply of Wales is a valid one.
Also, you have the other aggregation, Britain, which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales.
On a side note, call it European bias, I keep seeing the US of A as a conglomerate of 50 countries.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EU_Damz View Post
a little mini game, something i used to play as a kid in those long car journies
That's the key - it's a game that's suitable for children. It's not meant to become a debate about what constitutes an official country.

Heck - the official lists vary as the list of official countries/states/nations varies according to whether they're officially recognised by whichever body drew up the list. This often means that some countries are left off some lists for many years especially if the country/body making the list disagrees of the new country's political or religious leaning...

And as for the view that the USA is a collection of 50 countries - that's pretty much how I generally see it. It has a big advantage over Europe in using a common tongue and a common currency but the clue's in the name: it's a union of separate states.

Although not quite 50 states... not all 50 are states. There's a few commonwealths iirc - can't recall how many, but think Massachusetts (sp?) is one.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judgement_Dave View Post
Although not quite 50 states... not all 50 are states. There's a few commonwealths iirc - can't recall how many, but think Massachusetts (sp?) is one.
Four, I believe.








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Posted

Wales is definitely a country.

Eco.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiken View Post
Four, I believe.








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Virgnia, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and Massachusetts. Lol, three I knew (Va, Penn, and Mass), but had to check for the fourth.



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Posted

I dare you to tell the Welsh Rugby Team that Wales isn't a country


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EU_Damz View Post
Ok now im going to sound really stupid here today [more so than usual!] but here it goes.

Today in work i was bored and thought i'ld start a little mini game, something i used to play as a kid in those long car journies. Where you all take it in turns letter by letter to go through the alphabet saying a word that starts with that letter. For example i said lets do countries so would go like this

Me: Australia
Person2: Brazil
Person3: Canada

etc etc,

Now when it got to W somebody obviously said Wales however one person was having none of it since we wouldnt allow states and just purely "official countries", which got me thinking . . . . . what is the difference between a state and a country and does that make the UK a country or a mini continent as such since it has a cluster of countries inside it?
Were you in Wales at the time? Whoever said that ought to be shot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit View Post
Also, you have the other aggregation, Britain, which is made up of England, Scotland, Wales.
I think that should be Great Britain, and is now purely a geographical term for the largest island in the British isles.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggis View Post
Were you in Wales at the time? Whoever said that ought to be shot!

I think that should be Great Britain, and is now purely a geographical term for the largest island in the British isles.
I thought 'Britain' was the name of the bigger island and 'Great Britain' the name of the collection of countries including Northen Ireland and all those piddly bits off the coast of Scotland...having just quickly looked at wiki, it seems there's no such thing as 'Britain', just 'Great Britain' - which has left me utterly confused and feeling stupid.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggis View Post
Were you in Wales at the time? Whoever said that ought to be shot!



I think that should be Great Britain, and is now purely a geographical term for the largest island in the British isles.
I stand corrected Diggis and I shall do 10 lines for that foul mistake!


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull Throttle View Post
I thought 'Britain' was the name of the bigger island and 'Great Britain' the name of the collection of countries including Northen Ireland and all those piddly bits off the coast of Scotland...having just quickly looked at wiki, it seems there's no such thing as 'Britain', just 'Great Britain' - which has left me utterly confused and feeling stupid.

Great Britain = England, Scotland & Wales.
United Kingdom = England, Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland.

Hope that helps! :-)

All of the above are also individual countries. They aren't states in the sense that the USA has 50 states. You wouldn't see an individual US state represented at the World Cup for example :-)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
All of the above are also individual countries. They aren't states in the sense that the USA has 50 states. You wouldn't see an individual US state represented at the World Cup for example :-)
Didn't see England, Scotland or Wales there either :P

(Yes I know there was an English team there, but they weren't actually DOING anything )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull Throttle View Post
I thought 'Britain' was the name of the bigger island and 'Great Britain' the name of the collection of countries including Northen Ireland and all those piddly bits off the coast of Scotland...having just quickly looked at wiki, it seems there's no such thing as 'Britain', just 'Great Britain' - which has left me utterly confused and feeling stupid.
I actually thought the same thing to and I've looked it up many times before. It gets me everytime. The collection you are talking about is the political body of United Kingdom and if you include Republic of Ireland it's the British Isles.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggis View Post
Didn't see England, Scotland or Wales there either :P

(Yes I know there was an English team there, but they weren't actually DOING anything )



I actually thought the same thing to and I've looked it up many times before. It gets me everytime. The collection you are talking about is the political body of United Kingdom and if you include Republic of Ireland it's the British Isles.
We prefer the term "Britain and Ireland". British Isles is a legacy term from before 1922.


Teams in sporting events doesn't really come into it either. For example in the Rugby the Irish team is basically the Republic and Northern Ireland rather than their being a separate NI team (there's a separate NI team in soccer though).


 

Posted

Ok. Great Britain is the combined countries of Wales, England and Scotland, The full given title is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Ireland is part of the British Isles (but I know why you want Britain and Ireland) but the Isles also includes the Channel island states and the Isle of Man

Oh, and there are only 46 states in the U.S. as Kentucky, Virginia, Massachusettes, and Pennsylvania are all commonwealths - as in, "Organised Political Communities", rather than States. No difference, though.


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Posted

Wales is a country and one to be proud of damnit


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
Wales is a country and one to be proud of damnit
And not everyone in Wales is named Jones, there are also a few Evans


 

Posted

Last time I went back to Wales to visit family I met my uncle's neighbour Evan Evans........


"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"