City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Personally, I think 'balance' is highly over-rated...

Airhammer

By Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-06-20 08:19 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

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Originally Posted by New Dawn View Post
I think the game should be about skill.
Then why have more than a single power set for each AT?

 

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Originally Posted by DrMike2000 View Post
Sorry, my post was kind of unclear. The TA/A - Fire/Kin example was hypothetical. So yeah, it hasn't driven people away because its not that bad in reality.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure about the 20% deviancy thing.
My main is a Gravity Controller. I've played Energy Melee on a Tanker to 50. I've solo'd a Force Fielder on numerous occasions, so I've covered the lower end of the spectrum. I've even tried soloing a Sonic Resonance Defender.
I also have a level 50 Sword and Shield Scrapper. No personal experience with Fire/Kinetics, but I've done Fire/Rad to 50. So I've covered a lot of the high end performers across different archetypes too.
Overall I've got 16 level 50's, covering all archetypes with a focus on Controllers and Defenders, who get some of the more diverse power sets. I've played around with IOs a lot.

In all this playtime I've never found a character who couldn't contribute to a typical PuG, or couldn't solo against +1s by their 20s. Some had their bad days against certain groups, some shone in other situations. But it's lead me to believe that the game is balanced to within 20% or so.

In order to find orders of magnitude difference in performance, I have to resort to dual-boxed Empathy Defenders. THAT was overpowered, but deservedly so because of the poor solo performance.
I suppose my point is - aren't we reasonably assured that after months of design and months of play-testing, when a set comes out it would be +/- %20 relative to other power sets in effectiveness? My earlier statement wasn't that we shouldn't have balance... its that endless trimming around the edges to make every diverse option as balanced as possible ultimately defeats the entire point of diversity to begin with. especially after the fact when players took a power set and spent hours of their time with the reasonable presumption that they were being handed something carefully made and already balanced.

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Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
Silverado:
You don't want them to "concentrate on underperforming powers". You want to keep your overperforming ones.
This is an assinine statement, so I'm going to assume its just a reflexive response and not the result of reading what I actually wrote. As I said before, I've been here since the beginning and only have a couple of 50's, with literally hundreds of characters from every AT on both sides leveled into the 30's... why? Not because I'm trying to 'keep my overperforming powers', but rather because I love the diversity this game offers - and its that diversity I'm trying to protect with my comments. I don't PVP and I almost never do TF's.

I believe the dev's focus shouldn't be on 'underperforming powers', it should be on powers almost no one ever takes within their native sets (or on continuous new content). There are many that could be adjusted, not to make more or less powerful, but rather replaced with more viable options. And I'm not categorically for or against nerfs or buffs to any particular set or AT... just against constant and oftentimes needless tweaking when those efforts could certainly be better spent.

I think its funny that the same few and very specific examples are mentioned over and over again as justification for this endless tinkering after the fact, which in fact proves my point. What about everyone else? Pretty much every single power set and every single AT has seen modifications, most multiple times... and out of all of those updates and changes that affected gameplay for pretty much everyone in the game, in some cases driving off frustrated players, its these very few examples that are pointed at.

I can grant those, though I still think it should have been unnecessary in the first place - can you defend all of the many, many others?

 

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Originally Posted by DrMike2000 View Post
And yeah, I'm pretty sure about the 20% deviancy thing.
If you say so.

Since I was primarily responsible for bringing SC to Castle's attention in the Shield thread I've decided I won't be doing anything like that anymore considering he has ignored my similar appeals for buffs where they are numerically warranted. I'm just going to stick to quantifiable bugs that can be easily demonstrated, that if fixed, result in performance improvements to sets.

But ya, regarding that 20% deviation? if you say so, but you could safely add a zero to it.

 

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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
I believe the dev's focus shouldn't be on 'underperforming powers', it should be on powers almost no one ever takes within their native sets (or on continuous new content). There are many that could be adjusted, not to make more or less powerful, but rather replaced with more viable options.
They *will not replace* those powers, whether YOU think the replacements would be "more viable" or not.

They've tried it once. You'll notice how the APPs and PPPs now have five options instead of four? History lesson for you.

Initially the devs were going to just flat out replace the "least taken" powers or "least popular" in those sets. That didn't make it two patches from when it was put into beta. Why? People *use* them. They wanted, for instance, to replace the Dom mace AOE attack with personal force field - something I'd find absolutely useless. Stalker snipes? While their activation time could be reduced, they're used for sets (and, yes, on occasion snipes.)

The devs had a fast, massive and hard backlash against the replacements. They will *not* do that again. Thus - five options instead of four now. And the "cottage rule" some rail against so much - they will not flat out replace a power. Tweak it some? Sure. (Such as adding a small heal to EA's End drain.) Replace? No.

They know better now. Your definition of "better" or "more viable" is not everyones.

 

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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
They *will not replace* those powers, whether YOU think the replacements would be "more viable" or not.

They've tried it once. You'll notice how the APPs and PPPs now have five options instead of four? History lesson for you.

Initially the devs were going to just flat out replace the "least taken" powers or "least popular" in those sets. That didn't make it two patches from when it was put into beta. Why? People *use* them. They wanted, for instance, to replace the Dom mace AOE attack with personal force field - something I'd find absolutely useless. Stalker snipes? While their activation time could be reduced, they're used for sets (and, yes, on occasion snipes.)

The devs had a fast, massive and hard backlash against the replacements. They will *not* do that again. Thus - five options instead of four now. And the "cottage rule" some rail against so much - they will not flat out replace a power. Tweak it some? Sure. (Such as adding a small heal to EA's End drain.) Replace? No.

They know better now. Your definition of "better" or "more viable" is not everyones.
How many Fire tanks (or Brutes or anyone else) do you know who uses Temperature Protection? For sets, for fire resistance, for anything?

I don't recall proposing 'my definition' of what might be viable or better. There are smarter people than me to figure that out.

But a 2nd grader could improve on a power no one takes.

 

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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
How many Fire tanks (or Brutes or anyone else) do you know who uses Temperature Protection? For sets, for fire resistance, for anything?

I don't recall proposing 'my definition' of what might be viable or better. There are smarter people than me to figure that out.

But a 2nd grader could improve on a power no one takes.
i have a fire tank, scrapper and brute and all 3 of them have temp protection. for a set of steadfast and the slow resistance. again, your idea of a less used power is an opinion, not fact.

 

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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
Facts are facts. Someone will always be stronger, faster, more capable... people didn't love Wolverine or Spider-man or Batman or The Flash because they were so 'balanced' against one another and the foes they fought. Entire teams would get together to conquer a threat Superman could level with one punch. Superman and Geen Arrow were on the same team - the SAME TEAM - and they seemed to make it work okay. That's the way the world works, in comics and in real life.
No, that's the way the world works when you have a writer making it work that way. Without writer-god making things work, the results would be very different.

It's hard enough to make a power imbalance work in a tabletop roleplaying game where you can constantly adjust for the different characters - but to do it in an impersonal computer game where the enemies react indifferently to you, it's a very different story.

Just imagine that Superman/Green Arrow crossover where Superman's enemy spends the first three seconds of the comic punching GA's heart out the back of his chest and then spends the rest of the comic taunting superman with his new skull shaped sock puppet.

And while people might not read a comic because the hero is balanced, many will read superhero comics because the characters are badass. And video games don't have the luxury of making a sub-par hero appear badass.

 

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
No, that's the way the world works when you have a writer making it work that way. Without writer-god making things work, the results would be very different.

It's hard enough to make a power imbalance work in a tabletop roleplaying game where you can constantly adjust for the different characters - but to do it in an impersonal computer game where the enemies react indifferently to you, it's a very different story.

Just imagine that Superman/Green Arrow crossover where Superman's enemy spends the first three seconds of the comic punching GA's heart out the back of his chest and then spends the rest of the comic taunting superman with his new skull shaped sock puppet.

And while people might not read a comic because the hero is balanced, many will read superhero comics because the characters are badass. And video games don't have the luxury of making a sub-par hero appear badass.
This. Any villain who can seriously challenge Supe is so far beyond the lantern than he wouldn't even last the full duration of the first attack. Same thing for the average CoH team. If the villain can seriously challenge the toughest AV and GM soloists, the average squishy is toast as collateral damage without contributing to the fight.

That's not fun for anyone involved. The AV soloist is complaining the rest of the team isn't helping, and they are all dead on the floor complaining the mission is not winnable.

"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.

 

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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
Anyway, my two cents. If a power can pass the design and play-testing phase, then the only time to really look at it is when new complimentary powers sets or new, easily available IO enhancements become available. Data-mine a bit to find out what powers nobody ever takes and improve upon those, give players more options, rather than taking options away that they've already worked hard to earn.

You are going to be unhappy in any subscription game you play.

 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
You are going to be unhappy in any subscription game you play.
And yet I've been happy here for more than six years. I'm not even complaining now really, and certainly not about any particular nerf or update. This is merely a philosophical point.

It seems like a lot of people are taking my comments personally and responding in kind. If you - or anyone else - thinks never-ending 'tweaks' (even if the tweaks are at times dramatic and substanial enough to chase off frustrated players) are a good thing, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree. The never-ending quest for balance should - again, in my opinion - take a back seat to the never-ending quest for expanded content, new power sets and costume options.

For instance, I'd certainly enjoy underwater zones a whole lot more than finding out that my favorite character is going to have to change how he plays YET AGAIN...

 

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
No, that's the way the world works when you have a writer making it work that way. Without writer-god making things work, the results would be very different.
Actually, it was my opinion that that's the way the actual world works. Not everyone is born with the same degree of intelligence, physical ability, talents, will or starting point economically. We have wildly differring skill sets and personal experiences all - at least in my opinion - without a 'writer-god' pulling the strings and we somehow manage to have personal triumphs and failures regardless.

I'm okay with the next guy being smarter than me or better looking (though, honestly, it doesn't happen often in either case ) and I'm damn sure no going to whine to my 'writer-God' to 'balance' everything out to make it fair. Because of that philosophy, I'm fine with oen power set not being able to do exactly everything that another power set can do with exactly the right degree of effectiveness. I'll find what makes it unique, carve out a niche for myself and succeed... or I'll try something different.

Will there ever NOT be exploits, ever NOT be fotm toons, regardless of how much tweaking is done? Will the pure min/maxers ever run out of ideas to challenege the game and its rules? Of course not... so lets not hold the casual gamers hostage to their relentless pursuit of perfection.

Because, when it comes down to it, perfection is boring... and I'll bet once those power-gamers have succeeded in exploiting the system and becoming truly 'uber' with this ridiculous build or that, they'll get bored... they'll eventually start looking for another challenge. A real one.

All without the dev's changing the rules of the entire world in response to them.

 

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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
For instance, I'd certainly enjoy underwater zones a whole lot more than finding out that my favorite character is going to have to change how he plays YET AGAIN...
Except, as pointed out above, the devs who make zones are not the same ones as those who re-balance power sets. Castle can not spreadsheet up a new zone, BABs can not animate a code fix, and War Witch can't zone design a new powerset.

 

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Originally Posted by Krogoth View Post
Except, as pointed out above, the devs who make zones are not the same ones as those who re-balance power sets. Castle can not spreadsheet up a new zone, BABs can not animate a code fix, and War Witch can't zone design a new powerset.
BaB's has threatened to animate bugs away before.

Pohsyb threatened to give Golden Girl his home address if he tried.

Anyways, Wiggz, I'm just going to say this in response to your posts in this thread:

 

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Is it just me??? This thread makes no sense...

The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

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After reading the thread I have come up with a simple one sentence response to the thread title:

If things are not balanced, they tend to fall down a lot.

The balance you're railing against is absolutely necessary to the functioning of the game. You're apparent "never nerf anything, ever" stance would, if adopted by the devs, lead to the entire game being so unbalanced that only one or two powersets per AT would even be viable to be played because they would so far outstrip everything else it's not even funny.

Shield Charge is receiving a nerf in the near future, because it was mathematically proven to be brokenly overpowered. An attack that outdamages most blaster nukes, and is available every 30-45 seconds on a high recharge build, and doesn't crash your endurance? Oh yeah, AND it's on ATs that will outlive, by default, any blaster build you can possibly put together. Sorry if you don't like it, but that is a power that NEEDS a nerf.

It's funny that when people start talking about how they don't like the devs balancing things they never bring up the buffs, only the nerfs get any attention. In cse you haven't noticed, there are almost aways many more buffs than there are nerfs.

Case in point: Dominator damage boost. The entir AT got a boost to damage so it isn't completely reliant on Domination to actually deal decent damage. What did people notice? They nerfed Psychic Shockwave. ONE power got nerfed, and it was viewed as a nerf to the entire AT, completely ignoring the fact that the other 8 powers in that set were buffed, as well as the powers of the other sets. Overall, maybe 3-4 powers got hurt by the change, but those powers were trotted out as examples of the devs' heavy-handed nerfing, while the buffs were swept under the rug.

If you're going to complain about balance, look at the buffs too, or your view of balance isn't very balanced itself.

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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
Actually, it was my opinion that that's the way the actual world works. Not everyone is born with the same degree of intelligence, physical ability, talents, will or starting point economically. We have wildly differring skill sets and personal experiences all - at least in my opinion - without a 'writer-god' pulling the strings and we somehow manage to have personal triumphs and failures regardless.
But in the real world, we don't take on the same challenges. I may have a different set of useful skills than a MMA fighter, and with some ways of evaluating, we may be able to make outselves useful, but I'm still not going to beat the crap out of anyone in unarmed combat. This video game doesn't have a wide variety of different situations to excel in. There's basically just "kill stuff" with a couple of variations. Maybe that fire tanker can dance on a pole better than the shield, but that doesn't mean it's useful in any way for playing this particular game.

 

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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
I suppose my point is - aren't we reasonably assured that after months of design and months of play-testing, when a set comes out it would be +/- %20 relative to other power sets in effectiveness?
No, we're not. Much like "the best-laid plans of mice and men go oft astray," the best-tested features of developers and beta players will still be broken by a min/maxer.

Balance in a multiplayer game, especially an MMO, is a continuous proces, not a discrete one.

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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
Actually, it was my opinion that that's the way the actual world works. Not everyone is born with the same degree of intelligence, physical ability, talents, will or starting point economically. We have wildly differring skill sets and personal experiences all - at least in my opinion - without a 'writer-god' pulling the strings and we somehow manage to have personal triumphs and failures regardless.
If the game conspires against you, you can stop paying and go somewhere else for fun. If the world conspires against you, you can... commit suicide. Even if you believe in an afterlife, most afterlives don't look kindly on suicide.
(Note to the reader: Please do not go commit suicide)

There's also this:
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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
But in the real world, we don't take on the same challenges.... This video game doesn't have a wide variety of different situations to excel in. There's basically just "kill stuff" with a couple of variations.



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Originally Posted by Wiggz View Post
I'll bet once those power-gamers have succeeded in exploiting the system and becoming truly 'uber' with this ridiculous build or that, they'll get bored... they'll eventually start looking for another challenge. A real one.
The min/maxers got bored. They started soloing AVs.
The min/maxers got bored. They started soloing TFs.
The min/maxers got bored. They started soloing GMs.
The min/maxers got bored. They started soloing 54s.

There's always a new challenge to be had. Only a select few builds can do the above. The next logical step would be to do it with build that previously couldn't. There's also hints of stronger and more difficult enemies upcoming, possibly with the fabled "Coming Storm", and Praetoria will be arriving soon, with new challenges to meet. Ad let's not forget the upcoming Incarnate levels with which we can expand our ability to challenge ourselves, or expand the challenges we can complete.

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper View Post
The min/maxers got bored. They started soloing 54s.

...

The next logical step would be to do it with build that previously couldn't.
Like with a Dark Armor Tank.




On topic - I agree with Claws. Things that aren't balanced fall down. Balance is necessary, and when scrappers have a ranged nuke, something's out of whack and needs fixed.

Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

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Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
Fair enough; data is not the singular of anecdote and seven data points is not significant. I don't have any data, neither do you; but we agree that there are an awful lot of people playing their Fire/Kins. My interpretation is "It's stayed FOTM for the last 36 months because it's very effective, especially in the 44+ game." Yours is "They all suck but they don't know it."
Two words "Speed Boost".

Its not that its over powered either, its that so many people don't build properly for end reduction and so many teams must have a stone tank.

 

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Balance =/= nerf.

Also, my /Fire Scrapper has Temperature Protection for various reasons. Remove it and I'll be pretty ticked, regardless of how "unused" it is.

Also, I'm guessing this topic was brought up in regards to the Shield Charge one? (That one looks deleted though...) Consider this: Shield Charge can nuke a whole spawn and one-shot it easily. One click. My two Scrappers of high enough level to note, BS/SR and Dark/Fire, cannot match the damage without critting on their big hits, usually backed with Build Up/Soul Drain. One power completely overshadows the damage capabilities of both of my Scrappers. I run towards a spawn, a Shield user nukes it leaving no spawn. I run to the next spawn, it gets shield nuked too. I run to the third, shield nuked. I maybe land two-three hits on something before the spawn is dead. It's not fun and it makes my Scrappers feel a bit useless, even though the BS/SR is so tough it can solo an AV. Purely anecdotal (and a bit exaggerated, of course), but it's a definite problem and it's making it far more difficult for me to enjoy my Scrappers, which are one of my favorite ATs.

 

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Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Two words "Speed Boost".

Its not that its over powered either, its that so many people don't build properly for end reduction and so many teams must have a stone tank.
Sadly, not even close. Most fire/kins I've teamed with don't speed boost anybody at all, if they even have the power. They do it because wading into a pack of enemies with Hot Feet on, locking them in place with Fire Cages, and then hitting Fulcrum Shift while your imps are clawing their junk does absurd amounts of damage.

 

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Originally Posted by MechaCrash View Post
Sadly, not even close. Most fire/kins I've teamed with don't speed boost anybody at all, if they even have the power. They do it because wading into a pack of enemies with Hot Feet on, locking them in place with Fire Cages, and then hitting Fulcrum Shift while your imps are clawing their junk does absurd amounts of damage.
this sounds about right...

 

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High performance shouldn't come as a result of choosing something at the powerselection screen. Copycatting someone elses build and playstyle or that of scores of others is not a sign of higher intelligence.

He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

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Originally Posted by MechaCrash View Post
Sadly, not even close. Most fire/kins I've teamed with don't speed boost anybody at all, if they even have the power. They do it because wading into a pack of enemies with Hot Feet on, locking them in place with Fire Cages, and then hitting Fulcrum Shift while your imps are clawing their junk does absurd amounts of damage.

It really is astounding that Fulcrum Shift hasn't seen its day in court yet given it lets the user skip damage enhancements because the buff is so high. But from dev comments about other powers it appears they are less concerned with +damage powers than actual attacks, at least at the moment. Fulcrum Shift is one of those powers I'm happy to use (abuse?) atm but every time the game updates expect to be modified. The other offender is Phantom Army, which is well and truly ridiculous (would you let your Tankers be invulnerable to all damage, mezzes, controls, and secondary effects? then why someone's pet? "because you can't buff them" is just a recipe for trouble on an AT with access to huge debuffs.)