Leveraging REPEL in Kinetics ...

Disclaimer:
I'm more interested in using Repel on a Controller than I am on a Defender. Problem is, all the Guides for any of the secondaries for Controllers point over here to the Defender forum ... hence why I'm posting this here rather than in the Controller Forum.



Okay, I've looked through all the (available) guides on Kinetics, and every single one of them comes to exactly the same conclusion about Repel ... namely, Avoid At All Costs.

The trouble is ... we've now got Knockback Sets, which allow certain ... things ... to happen, which couldn't have happened prior to Inventions (or more accurately, the procs in those sets).



On a lark, I picked up Repel for my Mind/Kin Controller, put some slots into it, and figured I'd try and find some uses for it. Imagine my surprise when I found I can actually make good situational use of it! Mind you, you still don't want to keep it running when you dash in for a Fulcrum Shift on a dogpile that are all aggroed on the Tank ... but there are plenty of other situations where Repel can actually work for you rather than just against you.

I've personally found Repel to be quite helpful if you're (currently) hanging back in the second row with the Blasters and able to take up position in a Choke Point due to terrain. Fire up Repel and you can keep leakers from distracting the Blasters away from doing their thing (namely, DPS and Spike Damage). In fact, I've had some pretty good success using Repel at Choke Points to protect my teammates from melee. Slotted up with 2 common 50 knockback IOs, Repel will pump out MAG 15+ KB on anything that gets near you every HALF second. That stacks up on KB resistant mobs ... like Warwolves. It may take a few seconds for Warwolves to stack up enough MAG to overcome their native KB protection, but even they will be hurled away from you with enough exposure to Repel.

One of the most commonly cited downsides to Repel is its endurance consumption. The baseline consumption of -0.78 END/s isn't really that bad when you consider that you've also got Transference available at later levels to refuel with. The problem is that there's a -1 END cost for every activation of Repel that hits ... per target hit ... and there's no way to reduce that through slotting. The "END per target" cost of the power ignores enhancements and buffs. This means that Repel is going to be "expensive" on END no matter what you do ... every time it hits something.

But there is something you can do about that. You can enhance the Knockback!

It seems counter-intuitive ... but by increasing the Knockback delivered by Repel, you actually (in game play, over time) reduce the number of "Repel Hits" that melee hugging enemies can bring to bear on you. This is because with more KB, they get hurled farther away ... take longer to get up ... and take longer to run back into melee range where they get a Wash/Rinse/Repeat. By enhancing the KB on Repel, you make every "Repel Hit" dramatically more effective, reducing the number of hits (and thus, END drain) necessary to keep hostiles out of melee range with you. Furthermore ... by enhancing the KB on Repel, you can inflict enough KB in a single activation cycle of this toggle to overcome the KB protection of a great many melee powered sets, which typically run in the -10 to -11 region. A pair of common 50 IOs for KB will give you MAG +15 (and change).

Repel basically turns you into a human(oid) Singularity ... except that you, as a player, have a lot more "brains" than a Controller Pet (usually). With a Repel slotted for KB, you can "Hurricane Herd" right alongside the best Stormers around.



Slotting Endurance Reduction in Repel is recommended by just about every single guide on Kinetics (followed by the "skip this power!" advice). But since the only endurance cost that's getting reduced by those slots is the toggle maintenance cost ... not the opportunity cost on hits ... I'd have to say that spending slots on Endurance Reduction for Repel is of marginal return at best. Even with two common 50 IOs dedicated to Endurance Reduction, you're only saving 0.35 END/sec ... or 1 END every 3 seconds, if you prefer. Given the recharge time on Transference, and the "End Rush" that Transference makes possible ... this is actually a very minor return on investment for the price of 2 enhancement slots.



Given all this ... I'd recommend that for anyone with Kinetics who's even thinking of taking Repel (and yes, I know this will be a tiny minority of players) ... I'd suggest that the optimal slotting for Repel is not 2-3 Endurance Reduction. Instead, I'd recommend slotting 2 common 50 Knockback IOs ... since those dramatically limit your exposure to Endurance Drain when a hostile comes within the PBAoE of Repel.

Ah ... but then there's an option which presents itself ...

What if ... you add a third slot ... and put a Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge into that third slot? Now you've not only got a "keep away" power, but one which has a chance to "hurry up" everything you can do every time a hostile comes within fisticuffs range.

And now let's consider that not every combination of Powerset paired with Kinetics is going to want to live within Melee Range full time. Archery and Dual Pistols, for instance, would see some interesting synergies on Defenders who run Repel and are more focused on Damage Output than on Buff/Debuff/Heal actions. I'm sure that other Defender Secondaries could also benefit from a Ranged Offender tactics and strategies set being "buttressed" by intelligent use of Repel. Similarly, there are several Controller Primaries that display a marked preference for ranged as opposed to close quarters combat, and for those combinations an enhanced Repel can easily work as an opportunity herding tool in both offensive and defensive playstyles. Villains ... same deal.



I'm posting these thoughts here because it seems to me that pretty much since Issue 1, the Repel power has been the ugly duckling of the Kinetics powerset. But with Inventions in the mix, and the procs they bring to bear ... perhaps it's time to give Repel another looksee. Granted, it's not going to be a Set And Forget type toggle, like the Leadership toggles are, since there will be times when you'll want to shut it off (see: Fulcrum Shift) ... but by the same token, there are also going to be times when you don't want to jump into the dogpile with the Tanks and Scrappers, because you'll probably faceplant if you do (see: Malta).

For those times when you can't be in the center of attention (due to Mezz and AoE and other situational factors) ... having Repel in your back pocket can be useful not only during Team combat, but also when Solo. And best of all, Repel only really "needs" a minimal slotting of 2 to 3 slots in order to leverage it very effectively. It's not $DEITY Mode ... but it can be quite useful, and given the synergy with Transference, Repel's greatest downside can be mitigated relatively easily with only "some" (as opposed to major) effort on the part of the Player.



Repel gives you the opportunity to play "goalie" ... and kick the hostiles facing your team back into play, over by the Husqvarna armed Scrappers who feast upon the flesh of anything around them. Stormers know exactly how useful this can be already, and they aren't exactly shy about using their Hurricane Herding power.



Give Repel a second look my fellow Kineticists. You might surprise yourself with the tactics you discover.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Very good post !

Its great to see someone take the time and effort to make sense of this power (or any power, for that matter, that is commonly advised against).

What has always bothered me about repel is the per target cost. This seems (on paper) to be a balancing factor between "Kinetics" and "Forcefields", since that set also has a repel type power. But since Forcefields is primarily about "knockback" you can leverage this effect more efficiently than "Kinetics".
:::Edited::: having reviewed repulsion field, it appears that I am wrong. There is a per target cost to the FF version as well. They appear nearly identical. I have never used the FF version.

I have used repel. In fact, my very first Kinetic defenders stubbornly took it despite all the "commonly" held wisdom to skip it. What I found was that in situations where you have only a few mobs to deal with, the cost was worth the effort to use the power. Unfortunately, in many MORE situations, the "per target" cost makes the power extremely in-efficient.

I really like the idea of "procs" being added to this power though, so definitely something to "re-visit".

Thanks for posting

I was wondering if this could be used with Force Bubble, so I searched for what sets FB takes...I can't find anything! I logged into my character and there's no sets listed.

For regular enhancements it only takes End and Recharge. >

I took repel on my first kinetic. I found it was very useful on bosses. Ones in particular I recall are the Lost bosses with the big swords. Repel has a unique ability to interrupt. In practice, you can learn to anticipate when the foe is going to stop and initiate an attack. Right before he sets up, YOU step into him and the repel interrupts and kicks the target. People on teams will still hate you for the kb. Good Luck.

My only question for the proc is the following:

Since Repel is a toggle, do you have to hit an enemy exactly on the 10 second timers to get the +Rech proc or is it per enemy hit.

That's pretty my major concern with procing it. There's little use (unless you're cornering them and even then you'll blow through endurance) for the proc if you have to hit and enemy at the exact right time to have a chance for the proc to go off. If it is a per target hit proc chance, that's actually quite a via option. You could also 3 slot Explosive Strike for a damage buff and ranged defense set bonuses. It'll also enhance your knock back slightly (to 9.8 Mag KB versus the 6.2 it normally offers). However, the procing of this power really does boil down to if it's a chance to proc per target or chance to proc if targets are hit at a very certain time. If it's the latter, just the two KB IOs will suffice; otherwise it's something to consider, assuming you have slots left over.

It's definitely something for my Kin/AR Defender to consider on his solo build (since I've currently got it quasi-spliced team/solo and thus have speed boost). I mean, it's already fun to knock around everything with my AR as it is, might as well add a bit of a more "you *are* being knocked around" with Repel.

In fact it's plausible for all Kins that like my "KB then dash the enemy, then transference/transfusion them from "safety" to melee attacks" to do so, since Repel has a radius of 9 and those two have a radius of 20 around the enemy. After enough experimentation, Siphon -> Repel -> Heal/End would be a decent combination to keep melee at bay, or with enough positioning prowess, even ranged enemies. This opens a whole new box for my Kin/AR and his KBing enemies as a Kin.

Repel seems to have a faster pulse rate than Repulsion Field. I don't have a lot of experience with it but Repel always felt like it threw things away faster.

Good post. I think the major thing with Repel, and some other toggle powers, is that when it comes to toggles people think that because it can be left on all the time, you have to leave it on all the time or else its useless. That comes up a lot in discussions about Arctic Air and Hot Feet.

I used to have repel and say some nice things about it but it was long ago. My philosophy is if you can't find something positive about a power then maybe you just aren't imaginitive or thoughtfully indepth enough.

Repel had been good for me but I prioritized and my build changed. Some powers that look bad in the early levels due to lack of slotting or inexperienced play can come good later on.

Too many guides give one star to a perfectly good power and tell people with some self ordained authority what's worth taking and what is not, what people will need and what they will not, hello crystal ball.

Guides are just that and maybe sometimes they're there to tell people what they'd imagine what most people agree with. A good guide never tells people everything no matter which way I look at it. I've always believed that once you know the magic trick the magic is gone.

Well, also it's a lot of fun. Get up to a high level, slot up the kb and run into mobs of Hellions.

You said and Transference not into Transference the first time. Read fast Redlynne might of got the gist of where a sentence might typically go..

I see a lot of mistyping, misquoting, misreading or misinterpreting and a whole lot of BS on these forums as a result.

Repel/Repulsion Field are great against god-moded Paragon Protectors.

I loved the power on my Force Fielder.
My biggest problem with Kinetics' Repel is that it can knock your heal target away. There's a sweet spot where the enemy is out of Repel range but you're within the heal range, but that can be hard to hit exactly if you've Siphon'd Speed recently.

I love repel and never once thought it was useless. Of course, you don't always want to run it, but when things go downhill it's been a lifesaver many times. Since kin isn't a slot heavy powerset I find it easy to 6 slot it with Kinetic Crash (awesome bonuses and won't cause an arm and a leg). Kinetic Crash gets you 7.5 recharge and KB protection, plus you end up with massive kb and good end reduction in repel.

I understand how crazy it may sound to 6 slot repel, but Kinetic Crash makes it very appealing.

Love Repel. Great power.

Good enough to overcome the practical reality that controller Kinetics is all about maximizing DPS, farming, and maximizing DPS while farming? Fat chance. Thus Repel's reputation.

Still, I love to hear how all Kinetics powers can be put to use in non-farm content like this, for those of us who venture off the beaten (plowed?) track. Since that's where I've seen most /kinetic controllers really struggle to support teammates not named "Imp", use or carry break frees, or do much of anything. Maybe someone can use your test results to start writing a specific non-farming Kinetics guide! Keep us up to date.

My name is Westley and I approve of the OP.

Also, the OP should read the Force Fielder's Bible, specifically my comments on Repulsion Field which is virtually identical to Repel. IMNSHO one of the single best "defensive auras" in the game.

Yeah, its good to check out those powers that conventional wisdom says to ignore.

My problems with Repel stem not so much from the power itself as the failure of the rest of the Kinetics set - namely that a powerset that's all about movement and fast-paced action demands that you stand still next to the enemy so much.

Consider for a moment if Transfusion worked like Twilight Grasp. The Kinetics defender could then risk melee/standing still for the reward of offensive boosts (Fulcrum Shift and extra endurance) but wouldn't be relying on it for their main source of survival.

It would let you act much more like a traditional speedster, or Speedball if you took Repel.

Good post.

While I agree that Repel can be put to good use, imo its counterintuitive to the rest of the set. Kin is also a very busy set so you have to prioritize. Time spent KBing stuff around is better spent using the rest of the powers.

Stuff like Repel works better in sets like FF because you bubble up the team then you've got 4 minutes to make good use of it.

It's a decent set mule, I guess. I wouldn't put a FFB proc in it though, since it would hardly go off and Kin has much better ways of getting +rech.

I also took Repel on my first kin. Loved it but used it situationally. Which, most powers like that should be used.

Hello Hurricane and Tornado...

I still take repel every now and then depending on how I'm planning on playing the toon. Solo, always, more for teams/tf's etc.. I'll generally opt for a more user friendly "oh crap" button.

S

I sometimes use my lvl 49 power choice to "take the road less travelled". For one of my kins I took Repel just to see firsthand what it's about. I was pleasantly surpised at the tactical options it opened up. I was most pleased on an STF, using it as a means to disrupt the repairmen. Sadly, there are other powers that do it better, but if you don't have Hot Feet (for example) on your team, then Repel will do.

On my IO respec though, I did get rid of it.

I do like this thread and would like to see more discussions about useful ways to employ less popular powers.