Run Run Run Stop look at group for the AV. Taunt AV if in the group if not run into room and piss off everything in room. taunt on auto. have 30+ baddies around me, blaster does his thing dies some times after Nova. Sorry blaster taunt cap is 16. controller holds boss we kill him. move to next room. Stop and look for AV again. repeat above.
Eh, my problem as a Tank is the teammates all using their AoEs just as I start into the enemies -- before I have aggro firmly in hand, and often before the alpha. So the Blasters die again, when if they had waited 2 seconds they'd be happy little exp factories.
Please send me some of the players who wait for the Tanker.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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If the rest of your team is doing that, you need to tell them what you're doing and when it's safest for them to attack. If they don't like you taking charge, let them die until they get the message.
|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Eh, my problem as a Tank is the teammates all using their AoEs just as I start into the enemies -- before I have aggro firmly in hand, and often before the alpha. So the Blasters die again, when if they had waited 2 seconds they'd be happy little exp factories.
Please send me some of the players who wait for the Tanker. |
Contact me in-game: @CheeseSlicer
Quote:
Some people don't take kindly to advice no matter what, but it is worth pointing out. One thing that works well is to just make a general statement (rather than talking to one person in particular), or to even mention a gameplan if you are playing with a bunch of people you don't know. You can even add in a "sorry if this is obvious" and I haven't found too many people to take it badly. If they weren't sure, they know now, and if they did, you mollified them.|
Originally Posted by SpikyShane
If the rest of your team is doing that, you need to tell them what you're doing and when it's safest for them to attack. If they don't like you taking charge, let them die until they get the message.
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Kind of silly that you need to soften up good advice so much, but I have found that it helps.
To the OP, I have run into all kinds of people that play their AT oddly, given its capabilities. I have a tendency to want to dash in even when I'm on my blasters or VEAT, even though there are more risks for them taking the alpha.
In my Four Rules of Tanking in my sig, I kind of talk about the same problem. I have played with other Tankers that sit back and don't rush in first, when it should be Tankers that should be known for rushing in (rather than Scrappers). Getting aggro and taking that alpha first is what Tankers are built for, and they should be doing it. It gets frustrating when I play my other ATs and I have a slow Tanker like that... it makes me want to break out one of mine, even though I like playing most of the ATs in the game.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Doesn't help that a lot of people make tanks just for farming.
Not that I am not guilty of that, but I have 6 level 50 tanks, and only 1 of em is really any good for it. I am too cheap to IO out ALL of my tanks, and the one I have fully slotted isn't that hot for farming, my beloved DA/DM.
Which leads to the other problem, "will pay for PL". I don't endorse that kind of crap, and the OP is exactly the reason why. I PL my own toons, don't do it for other people, and I take breaks in between to learn how to play the toons.
If the tank isn't rushing in first, you need to take an electric cattle prod to him. If ANYONE is trying to outpace the tank, the tank needs to put a lid on that by jumping to or three spawns ahead and dumping them all on the group at once. I specifically aim for whoever thinks they need to run ahead of me. Well, ok, that may be a bit extreme, but it usually does the trick.
unfortunately, there are a lot of crappy tanks out there. Of course the same can be said of every other AT as well. Give advice, point out where they can improve in a constructive manner, and if that doesnt work, boot their a$$.
Luckily, this game doesn't require the RPG holy trinity. Hell, my GF and I are leveling up def/scrapper combo(we are both taking breaks from Tankers we have like 12 level 50 tanks or so between us) and are duoing all the TFs as we level.
Dark Armor is like that kid you knew in school that didn't know when to shut up, and no matter how bad he got beaten down, he got right back up again and kept on talking.
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What the Tank's "job" is, is highly subjective. I would say the scrapper should be waiting on the Tank, but it's not my place to tell people how to play.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
...its the tanks job to make sure that happens right?
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| So why to 1/2 the Tanks I invite to my teams let me charge? |
Why? Because that's the going rate on PUG's. If you don't want to experience it, make some friends you can play with more reliably.
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| So please enplane to me how you guys play Tanks? Because clearly I don't understand what the point of your AT is. Or why you wate for some one else to attack the spawn and get the alpha. |
Sarcasm aside, you may want to take a time-out on the rage. You're playing with PUGs. You have no idea who's playing and if they know anything about the AT they have. You know what the experience is like as a Tanker in a PUG who does know what he's doing?
It ranges on anything from people not letting the tank lead, to people demanding on the tank only using taunt and no attacks to people insisting on the tank herding, to people doing any number of things.
You just notice tanks not doing a good job because you rely on them so much. Did you walk into the blaster forum and ask why the blaster in your example group behaved that way? Or the defender forum for the Empathy defender? Why ask about tanks when it sounds like your whole team was really bad?
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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I run TFs with my tank all the time. No one beats me to an alpha unless they're trying really damn hard.*|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
So please explain to me how you guys play Tanks? Because clearly I don't understand what the point of your AT is. Or why you wait for some one else to attack the spawn and get the alpha.
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In my mind, the tank sets the pace of the team. Most of the teams I'm on, I take the alpha and stay for three seconds before the spawn is locked down or on its last leg. At that point, I'm moving on to group up the next bunch of mobs.
*They could, however, be following rule three, which is "If you feel like you can handle it, you're free to go for it." I don't chase errant team members who want to do their own thing.
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
The only time I ever hesitate to run into a spawn with my Tanker is when I am the off tank. If there is another tank who is better than I am, I let him lead.
That MIGHT be a Scrapper, as I tend towards Scranker builds. But most of the time it isn't. And when that happens, I just charge in and start beating up punks. 
If I die, well, I'm still the best tank for the situation, and it's up to the team to either back me up or find a tank they don't have to back up.
Honestly, there are times when I need to wait to get back up to strength, or just reorient myself after a fight. If that's the problem, then maybe it's best to wait for the Tanker to lead. But if the Tanker is hesitant to do what he is built for and added to the team for, then that's just a bad player.
Blasters and Scrappers are allowed to be stupid. It's part of their AT. It's their teir 0. And I say this as both, but mostly I'm a scrapper.
But as a fire blaster, I totally understand that unless half the team is tanks, I'm going to get dudes running at me. If I get a great tank, and I never expect one, they'll see it and pull them off me with taunt. Had that last night. Amazing team. A defender, a tank, and the rest damage-idiots.
I faceplanted four times as a AoE crazy fire blaster.
As for rushing ahead, my katana/wp can't die, ever, at all, as long as I spam DA, which I do. I'll jump a spawn ahead sometimes if the team kills really fast. I'm not a tank. I don't have tank responsibilities or the ability to really, firmly, hold that aggro, but I can take the alpha at full health, with a purple or two I can take it at nearly zero health, but I've never seen that on the DA spamming katnana.
Wait...what was my point?
When i was leveling my ice/fire tank (particularly in the 22-32 range), it took a long time for me to get a feeling for when i was going to be safe jumping into a big +2 spawn, or if i was going to need immediate team assistance. Pre-22, the answer was easy; i was never safe. I learned that if i was defense buffed, then i could move more freely, but without, if a teammate or two was off the ball, i was toast.
I was kinda a basketcase the first few times i took point, learning how defensively strong i was through trial-and-error.
I now have more experiential understanding of the combo of hp/def/res/regen, and how 'safe' a melee toon of mine might be, and whether i just have to be 'ready,' or 'prepared to die RIGHT NOW.' I feel for tanks who are learning this. I have no sympathy for those who are unwilling to take helpful suggestions and learn.
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
I've only gotten one tank to 50, and so don't really consider myself an expert - or even a very good - tanker.
Having said that, however, let me just ask where it is written that the guy who gets the aggro first gets to keep it?
A blapper or a scrapper wants to run in ahead of me, then fine by me. I'll still do my damnedest to keep them alive, however, and in fact it really isn't that difficult. I pay attention to what my team is doing even as I'm running in - I'll have the boss selected, but my mouse hovers over the team window for much of the fight. That way I can select the charging scrapper's name and taunt his/her targets as I arrive (and like Dechs, you've got to be pretty quick to beat me into a spawn).
If a blaster fires off an aoe, that's okay; my taunt is aoe, too. That blaster might take an alpha, and if it's an aoe alpha more squishies might get hurt, but by that point I've got the aggro and my job is then to keep it while the team regroups. I don't fret over other people's mistakes until after the situation is under control. Nine times out of ten said blaster is pretty well behaved for a time after that.
The point is, I adjust my tactics according to my team. If I have a confident, disciplined team then it's funneling. If I have a rather timid and squishy team I'll corner taunt and herd. On crazy pugs where everyone does their own thing I pay even more attention to what individuals are doing, frequently taunting through a different team member each time the power recharges or moving/bashing my way to a different part of the fight based on the fluctuations of the battle and who did what stupid move last. Am I always 100% successful? No. Like I said, I'm not the best tanker out there.
But what I don't understand is what appears to be a prevalent attitude among tankers I team with that the fact that they've declared themselves the de facto team leader means that they don't have to pay any attention to what's going on around them. For every timid tanker out there who lets others take the alpha for him, there seems to be three who put on blinders at the beginning of the mission and expect the team to watch them in all their glory and respond accordingly.
You know what? They have a point. The tanker is the anvil and the team is the hammer, and a good team watches the tanker.
But a bad team doesn't absolve a good tanker of his or her responsibility to protect them. Tankers who intentionally let bad players die to "teach them a lesson" don't deserve the name. You don't like a team's behavior, you bite the bullet, adjust your tactics and bow out gracefully after the mission's over.
Bad players die just fine without help. Bad tankers let them.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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What you'll be getting is crabs, widows,masterminds, domis and brutes. None are particularly good at hanging about. Forts and crabs are softcapped aoe blasters, mms are quite capable of absorbing the alpha themselves and domis and brutes are chasing the crack-bar.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Eh, my problem as a Tank is the teammates all using their AoEs just as I start into the enemies -- before I have aggro firmly in hand, and often before the alpha. So the Blasters die again, when if they had waited 2 seconds they'd be happy little exp factories.
Please send me some of the players who wait for the Tanker. |
It's going to be interesting when villains can join blue side, especially at the lower levels.
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Tee hee
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
What you'll be getting is crabs.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
I've tanked for teams and whilst aggro capped or keeping damage from other people a scrapper goes off and overwhelms himself with mobs, maybe aggro cap in the hopes of me taking it from them if I can.
I might do if from weighing the probable outcome it concerns me that the other players in the team will be compromised from the scrappers actions.
Otherwise Scrappers are off my to save list like the last of my priorities.
Again where are these people who like to see the tanker in first? I tend to find it tedious chasing around pulling peoples nappies up for them by making needless recoveries from the inefficient messes some people like to make.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I hear you. I've had more than my share of experience with lunatic scrappers who take on more than they can handle and drag the extra spawn (sometimes spawns) back to us instead of dying with honor as they damn well should have done. I've got a page and a half of scrappers in the upper levels, and seeing that kind of incompetence boils my blood.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I've tanked for teams and whilst aggro capped or keeping damage from other people a scrapper goes off and overwhelms himself with mobs, maybe aggro cap in the hopes of me taking it from them if I can.
I might do if from weighing the probable outcome it concerns me that the other players in the team will be compromised from the scrappers actions. Otherwise Scrappers are off my to save list like the last of my priorities. Again where are these people who like to see the tanker in first? I tend to find it tedious chasing around pulling peoples nappies up for them by making needless recoveries from the inefficient messes some people like to make. |
A scrapper's proper place is at the top of a mound of corpses or at the bottom of it, and it's been said said over in the scrapper forums (once or twice by me) that anyone playing scrapper that bites off more than he or she can chew and doesn't have the decency to die doing it ain't no scrapper. Each time someone's said it they were met with a hearty round of "so say we all!" Unfortunately not everyone reads the forums.
Nonetheless, I'll still try and save the idiots that run back every time. That's my job. If I'm over my aggro cap because of it, I'll turn towards the team and throw taunts to the ones closest to my teammates, and then I do my best to position myself between everyone and my team. If a mob's gonna drop aggro on me and latch on to one of my squishies, he's gonna have to go me and a bunch of guys aggro'd to me to get to them.
Does it work? 'Bout half the time it does and half the time it doesn't. Anyone consistently causing situations like that quickly find themselves without a team. Rather that then turn my back on my job and let them die.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
When I'm tanking and on top of my game, I always rush in first. On my best days, I rush in, taunt, AOE, taunt, AOE amd the aggro is totally all mine. If I'm on my fav tanker, Shield/ SS, I'll run in, Shield Charge, Footstomp and head for next spawn letting team mop up after me as I still have all the aggro. If there is a harder target (particular nasty boss or multiple bosses, EB, or AV) I'll stay for a couple of taunts and another Footstomp.
The Tanking/ Control the Pace/ Handle Aggro/ Survive without buffs is a steep learning curve. Some people may learn faster and some may never master it. And the learning curve differs when looking at the different combos of powersets and power pool sets
But, yeah, a general statement of a gameplan at the beginning of the first mission and after each new team member joins will go a long way.
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If I'm the only tank in the group, I prefer to charge in first and bop the nearest boss on the nose (or multiple bosses and Lts with an AoE if I have one). Then I generally run through my attacks and toss a Taunt, if I have it, at the edge of the group (or at an enemy I see turning towards one of my teammates).|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
So please enplane to me how you guys play Tanks?
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If I'm not the only tank in the group, I like to hang back for a moment and let the other tank charge in, then move in myself and try to pick up stragglers.
If I'm a Scrapper, I like to charge in ahead of the tank screaming like a banshee and make the Defender's life more interesting.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I wasn't saying I let the idiots die straight away. I also do as others have said, initially taunting the boss of a mob then keeping an eye on the other members of my team while continuing to taunt the mob. If someone acts stupid, I'll tell them about it then if they continue to do the same, they're eventually left to die as a lesson to the whole team that this tanker don't take **** off nobody.
If I'm playing as a scrapper (which I am the majority of the time), I try and work out what I can and can't handle before starting to rush in. If I feel confident that I can take down a mob without any trouble, I will take them all on. If I think I'll struggle against them, I'll let the tanker do his work. It all depends on how the team is playing though. If we're going for speed missions, I'll go Hell for leather against any mobs I know I can handle. If we're taking our time, I'll always let the tanker do what he feels is best before I even think about running in.
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Now that is someone I wanna team with! |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
If I'm a Scrapper, I like to charge in ahead of the tank screaming like a banshee and make the Defender's life more interesting.
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Contact me in-game: @CheeseSlicer
Hmm ok so I am right to ask them to charge in first. Just had some bad players then.
Well thank you all at least now I know I'm doing it right and not being a total a**.
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"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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You were absolutely correct... any competent tanker will be pushing the pace and always the first into combat; that's what he's there for. When I'm tanking my first priority is to grab the aggro NOW to preempt any itchy trigger blasters. I'm doing my best to watch the entire battle and if any loose aggro heads to the squishy teammates then I'm going to toss a taunt on it to get it under control.|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
Hmm ok so I am right to ask them to charge in first. Just had some bad players then.
Well thank you all at least now I know I'm doing it right and not being a total a**. |
In the higher levels I tend to let scrappers handle their own aggro... most of them have a pretty good idea of their limits and if they're well built they can handle it. I'll still keep an eye on them though and intervene if they get in over their heads.
The bottom line is that I'm there first and foremost to protect the team; if I don't move NOW to grab aggro and always watch out for loose aggro then I'm not doing my job. After I've gathered the aggro then I worry about killing things, but I have to still keep my attention on the battle as a whole and avoid scrapper lock.
Unfortunately there are a lot of really bad tanker players out there; in my experience about 50% are worthless or actively counterproductive, 30% are trying but lack experience in what to do, 15% are competent and skilled and 5% are excellent. When you run into a competent tanker remember him and tell him he's doing a good job. I always make a point of encouraging the players who are trying and giving them a suggestion or two on how they could improve. The bad players I simply remember and avoid in the future.
Bad players come in all AT's; it's just that bad tankers and defenders tend to be the easiest to spot.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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I'll give you bad tankers, but bad defenders? I don't buy it. I guess it defends on the type of defender, really. Empathy's on the team an no one has fortitude? Yeah, that's a bad one. Most of the time, however, the team's just rolling along and you can't really tell whether the defender's doing his job or not. It's easy to spot a really good defender, that's for sure. When they're on their game, the team is really rolling along.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Bad players come in all AT's; it's just that bad tankers and defenders tend to be the easiest to spot.
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Bad scrappers and bad blasters are pretty easy to spot by that little skull icon that shows up every other spawn.
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I come across tankers with no auras. It's never pleasant. I mean they really don't provide much of a benefit to teams and tankers with taunt who taunt the targets they're hitting rather than the targets a few feet away killing somebody else make me wonder. Then there is those who direct damage towards or onto people, who taunt from far away and allow 5 taunted targets to come to the team with more than double that untaunted. Then there are those who run headlong into an ambush point. This is a point where the tank can aggro cap and anyone up his butt can aggro cap.
To I try to be first in battle? I intend to be but other people will push for another group whilst one is being dealt with. I like to leave a group early whilst people mop up and set the next but some are off sooner than that and I can't leave people relying on me. Usually if I see someone do something suicidal I don't follow. It could be suicidal for the entire team. Nothing heroic in playing a lemming following an idiot but it can be fun and sometimes a really cool fight which people love so it depends on what mood I am in, if I am playing a Scrapper I don't feel like I got many responsibilities so then I would probably go be that lemming.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Yeah, emps do tend to attract the highest percentage of bad defender players so that probably skews the perception somewhat. It's just that the last few PuG's I've been on have had EXTREMELY bad defenders... a few "aura rocker" emps and a stormy who ran perma-hurricane and just HAD to stand next to the tank.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'll give you bad tankers, but bad defenders? I don't buy it. I guess it defends on the type of defender, really. Empathy's on the team an no one has fortitude? Yeah, that's a bad one. Most of the time, however, the team's just rolling along and you can't really tell whether the defender's doing his job or not. It's easy to spot a really good defender, that's for sure. When they're on their game, the team is really rolling along.
Bad scrappers and bad blasters are pretty easy to spot by that little skull icon that shows up every other spawn. |
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Some people die as a result of others. Debuffers can debuff but a Tanker may not keep the aggro on them and off of that debuffer. Sometimes it can be that super io setted player who rushes off killing things spawning ambush after ambush that come for the players who are basically at SO level. Good players aren't immortal, good players keep the other players in mind. I tend to judge a bad tanker easiest when I see a dead defender but if that dead defender was up a tankers butt sharing all the effects what could he of done?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Asks a question.
Please note I have never played a Tanker but I like to lead PUGs. In fact its all I do. That said I would like to know why a taker when the only one on the team, follows behind me the scraper now we all know that scrappers are suppose to charge large groups of solid purple bad guys and walk away .... some times but its the tanks job to make sure that happens right?
So why to 1/2 the Tanks I invite to my teams let me charge? Seriously the team runs in and stops a little ways away from a group and stares at it....
stares at it some more....
The defenders AOE heal goes off... it must be on auto I wonder if there afk?....
O look now the blaster is running in... and 1 ..2 ...3 yep DEAD.
O now NOW the tank rushes in there we go.
Agin over the past week of running a PUG always a full team. I see this happen all the time some times every DAM SPAWN.
Ok ok I'll talk to him maybe hes on the phone or something
Team Valkyries Executor: Hea (tanks name) can you pleas rush ahead of the group to take the alpha?
Team Tankzor: Don't tell me how to play my AT.
Team Valkyries Executor: ... Ok but nobody else can take the alpha can you please play a bit more aggressively?
Team Tankzor: @#$% you Mother#$%&#@
Tankzor has quit the team.
Team Valkyries Executor: S*** hang on a sek guys getting a Warshade.
Again this isn't an isolated thing at least 3-4 different tanks have all played the same way, waiting for some one else to attack, and reacted the same way when I asked them to be a bit more aggressive.
So please enplane to me how you guys play Tanks? Because clearly I don't understand what the point of your AT is. Or why you wate for some one else to attack the spawn and get the alpha.