Maneuvers Vs Combat Jumping
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-06-09 10:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Combat Jumping is a movement power, Maneuvers is a team buff
combat jumping also has extremely low end cost (.07 end/sec unenhanced) while maneuvers has large end cost (.39 end/sec unenhanced)
the end cost associated with the powers balances with the fact that one power is self only and one is team buff
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Which I am fully aware of. As it is CJ also has a slightly higher Defense rating and it also increases your traveling(jumping) all while costing significantly lower endurance as you showed above.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
combat jumping also has extremely low end cost (.07 end/sec unenhanced) while maneuvers has large end cost (.39 end/sec unenhanced)
the end cost associated with the powers balances with the fact that one power is self only and one is team buff |
I would of thought since all Maneuvers does is increase your defense and team mates while costing a heck of a lot more End. That it would be better (in that department 'Defense') than a power geared around travel, which helps in more areas and better at it while costing less.
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Those values depend on your AT modifiers. A defender will have a better benefit from maneuvers than from CJ, where a scrapper may see the opposite.
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Originally Posted by Andferne
Which I am fully aware of. As it is CJ also has a slightly higher Defense rating and it also increases your traveling(jumping) all while costing significantly lower endurance as you showed above.
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Maneuvers looks bad until you multiply it by 8. Then it looks really really good.
Edit: To clarify, a team of 8 Defenders running slotted Maneuvers runs at 43.4% defense to all. Even a team of 8 Blasters running slotted Maneuvers runs at 28.2% defense to all. Stacking buffs are really, really powerful - when people bother to take them, use them, and team with them.
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Ah. Guess I would know that if I ever played anything other than a Scrapper or Tanker. >_>|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Those values depend on your AT modifiers. A defender will have a better benefit from maneuvers than from CJ, where a scrapper may see the opposite.
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Are all the Leaderships similar to that? Tactics and Assault?
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hover is essentially the same as combat jumping in terms of the defense buff, but it costs about the same as any other toggle (.26 end/sec i think, but should be around that)|
Originally Posted by Andferne
Which I am fully aware of. As it is CJ also has a slightly higher Defense rating and it also increases your traveling(jumping) all while costing significantly lower endurance as you showed above.
I would of thought since all Maneuvers does is increase your defense and team mates while costing a heck of a lot more End. That it would be better (in that department 'Defense') than a power geared around travel, which helps in more areas and better at it while costing less. |
combat jumping and maneuvers are approx the same defense numbers too, none of them increase defense by a whole lot, but combat jumping is definitly worth it cause of extremely low end cost
if you have end to spare or power choices to spare, i would just opt to get both of them, then you would be getting a good ~8% defense from both enhanced while giving your team ~4%
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All powers function based on AT modifiers. A blaster and a defender use the same powers, but because a defender is better at buff/debuff, the -res in a defender's sonic blast powers is strong, but the damage is far less.|
Originally Posted by Andferne
Are all the Leaderships similar to that? Tactics and Assault?
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It's the same power functioning differently because of the AT modifiers.
EDIT: Modifiers exist in all different forms. Here are some examples:
Code:
Scrapper Modifiers at level 50 Melee Ranged Damage Scale 1.125 0.500 Defense Buff 0.075 0.065 Damage Buff 0.125 0.070 Max HP Buff 0.100 0.100 ToHit Buff 0.100 0.070 Defense Debuff 0.075 0.070 Damage Debuff 0.075 0.070 ToHit Debuff 0.075 0.070 EndMod 1.000 1.000 Fear 1.490 1.490 Heal Other 96.381 96.381 Heal Self 133.862 Immobilize 1.192 1.192 Knockback 2.077 2.077 Damage Resist 0.075 0.065 Sleep 1.192 1.192 Slow 0.800 0.800 Stun 1.192 1.192 Taunt 1.540 1.540 Threat Level 3.0 3.0
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Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Red Tomax's powers reference is a little out of date, but still useful for answering these questions. Change the AT in the dropdown box to see the effects of each AT's modifiers on the powers.
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Originally Posted by Andferne
Ah. Guess I would know that if I ever played anything other than a Scrapper or Tanker. >_>
Are all the Leaderships similar to that? Tactics and Assault? |
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
Yes. Defenders get the most benefit from Leadership powers, while tankers get the most benefit from the Fighting pool toggles. |
Originally Posted by Andferne
Ah. Guess I would know that if I ever played anything other than a Scrapper or Tanker. >_>
Are all the Leaderships similar to that? Tactics and Assault? |
Just to give you an idea of how powerful leadership powers can be when multiple people are running them, look at a team of blasters (who get the lowest values from them)
Blasters get a 10.5% buff (clarify please, working from memory here
) from Assault. Multiply that by 8 and you end up with a team of damage dealers with a permanent 84% buff to all damage as long as all members of the team are in range.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The only thing about these two powers that I don't see as "balanced" (very subjective opinion by the way) is the fact that Tankers can get as much mileage out of CJ as opposed to taking Maneuvers. On my Defender, combining the 2 powers is a decent amount of "self-defense" AND the team benefit. On a Tanker, you would think the benefit would be about the same, but its not. This makes Maneuvers not very attractive for a Tanker (or scrapper for that matter).|
Originally Posted by Andferne
I completely understand the reasoning for picking one power over the other for concept reasons. Or if you are wanting to get Tactics to help Perception and maybe slot it with GFC. What I am asking is do people believe these two Defensive toggles are balanced. If so then why and if not what would make either or more balanced.
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Saying "unbalanced" is probably a mis-nomer, but its something that I find ODD.
Tankers and Scrappers are better off pursuing Weave if they want another defense toggle.
This leads to taking an unwanted Attack to get there, which is something I personally find annoying about the fighting pool powers.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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This is just a simple function of a team based AT. Defenders are supposed to be good at keeping the team defended. Tankers are good at taking care of themselves. It makes sense to me.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
The only thing about these two powers that I don't see as "balanced" (very subjective opinion by the way) is the fact that Tankers can get as much mileage out of CJ as opposed to taking Maneuvers. On my Defender, combining the 2 powers is a decent amount of "self-defense" AND the team benefit. On a Tanker, you would think the benefit would be about the same, but its not. This makes Maneuvers not very attractive for a Tanker (or scrapper for that matter).
Saying "unbalanced" is probably a mis-nomer, but its something that I find ODD. Tankers and Scrappers are better off pursuing Weave if they want another defense toggle. This leads to taking an unwanted Attack to get there, which is something I personally find annoying about the fighting pool powers. |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Eh? Combat Jumping is a scale 0.25 defense buff. Maneuvers is a scale 0.35 defense buff. Maneuvers is a better defense power. On a Scrapper, you get 2.275% base from Maneuvers, vs. a 1.875% base from CJ.
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Originally Posted by Andferne
As it is CJ also has a slightly higher Defense rating
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Correct, the critical difference is that Maneuvers uses the 'ranged'* defense scalings and CJ uses the 'melee'* defense scalings and for some ATs this can affect which is better. Specifically in the case of Tankers they get 2.5% from CJ but only 2.275% from Maneuvers.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Eh? Combat Jumping is a scale 0.25 defense buff. Maneuvers is a scale 0.35 defense buff. Maneuvers is a better defense power. On a Scrapper, you get 2.275% base from Maneuvers, vs. a 1.875% base from CJ.
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*Note: I'm referring to the terms used on paragon wiki and redtomax for the AT scaling factors, not to be confused with Ranged Defense and Melee Defense (the positional tags)
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Thanks Adeon|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Correct, the critical difference is that Maneuvers is that for some Ats they use different calings. Specifically in the case of Tankers they get 2.5% from CJ but only 2.275% form Maneuvers.
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You have illustrated my point better than I could.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I'm glad you understood it, I just reread it and it's a reminder that I need to proofread more.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Thanks Adeon
You have illustrated my point better than I could. |
Ah, I didn't realize anyone had that significant of a difference between the modifiers.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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It all depends what AT you play and what you are looking for in the power.|
Originally Posted by Andferne
Which I am fully aware of. As it is CJ also has a slightly higher Defense rating and it also increases your traveling(jumping) all while costing significantly lower endurance as you showed above.
I would of thought since all Maneuvers does is increase your defense and team mates while costing a heck of a lot more End. That it would be better (in that department 'Defense') than a power geared around travel, which helps in more areas and better at it while costing less. |
In the hands of a tanker, who is best at self protection, Combat Jumping offers 2.5 defense at .07 endurance. That's 0.028 end per delivered defense point.
Maneuvers, though, will yield the tanker 2.275 defense for .39 endurance. A Hefty .171 endurance per defense point delivered. However, if the tanker is in a full team, you multiply that by 8, at this point Maneuvers is delivering 18.2 defense (distributed through the team) for .39 end. That's .021 defense per endurance used. That's actually darn frigging efficient, once the power does what it was intended to do: buff teams.
If you are a defender, things get even better. The defender yields 3.5 defense to each user. Once you apply that to 8 teammates, we talking about 28 total defense for .39 end per second, or .014 endurance per delivered defense point.
Closing point: Maneuvers is very well balanced as long as you use it for what it was designed for: buff groups.
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This, incidentally, is part of why I keep trying to elbow Leadership and other incidental team buffs into my builds. Those rare occasions where I get to team with someone else who has them, they're really very tangible.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Maneuvers looks bad until you multiply it by 8. Then it looks really really good.
Edit: To clarify, a team of 8 Defenders running slotted Maneuvers runs at 43.4% defense to all. Even a team of 8 Blasters running slotted Maneuvers runs at 28.2% defense to all. Stacking buffs are really, really powerful - when people bother to take them, use them, and team with them. |
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It took me awhile to go with them on my Defender.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
This, incidentally, is part of why I keep trying to elbow Leadership and other incidental team buffs into my builds. Those rare occasions where I get to team with someone else who has them, they're really very tangible.
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But I figured if I do MY part and advocate how awesome they are, sooner or later I could see more and more folks using them.
In fact, one of my earliest dedicated SG teams (back at launch) had every person with Maneuvers.
That was back when the bonus was ridiculous too and you could 6-slot it with defense.
Good Times !
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Only because you're using the wrong version. Like the Wikia version of Paragonwiki, that site is no longer updated. Try the version found on the Titan Network, and it's fully up to date.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Red Tomax's powers reference is a little out of date,
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Note that links found on paragonwiki.com point at tomax.cohtitan.com and vice-versa.
@Roderick
Two things would make Maneuvers really competitive in this game.
First ... make the endurance cost dependent upon how many targets are affected by the power. This kind of mechanic is already seen in the Kinetics power Repel where the endurance cost is partially based on number of affected targets. That way, if you're only affecting yourself, the endurance cost is low(er) ... and if you're buffing an entire Team-8 then the endurance cost is the same as what we've got right now on Live.
S imple
E asy
E ffective
Second ... make the power have both a self-only and a PBAoE buff component to it. The PBAoE will maintain the exact same values as what we see now on Live. The self-only value would also be the exact same values as what we see now on Live.
Net result: the player with Maneuvers gets "double value" from Maneuvers at all times ... once from the PBAoE and once from the self only. Such an arrangement makes Maneuvers "valuable" even in solo play, while at the same time preventing the Team Buff from becoming "too large" and unbalancing in Team-8 play.
S imple
E asy
E ffective
... not being done. 
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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And also making it pretty much better than Weave as a self-defense power, which might not be the best route to take.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Net result: the player with Maneuvers gets "double value" from Maneuvers at all times ... once from the PBAoE and once from the self only. Such an arrangement makes Maneuvers "valuable" even in solo play, while at the same time preventing the Team Buff from becoming "too large" and unbalancing in Team-8 play.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Wow... didnt know about that....
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Only because you're using the wrong version. Like the Wikia version of Paragonwiki, that site is no longer updated. Try the version found on the Titan Network, and it's fully up to date.
Note that links found on paragonwiki.com point at tomax.cohtitan.com and vice-versa. |
I completely understand the reasoning for picking one power over the other for concept reasons. Or if you are wanting to get Tactics to help Perception and maybe slot it with GFC. What I am asking is do people believe these two Defensive toggles are balanced. If so then why and if not what would make either or more balanced.