Maneuvers Vs Combat Jumping
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-06-09 10:57 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Err, you are aware this power effects up to 255 people right? Think for a moment what happens in a mothership or hami raid. Extremely bad idea.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Two things would make Maneuvers really competitive in this game.
First ... make the endurance cost dependent upon how many targets are affected by the power. This kind of mechanic is already seen in the Kinetics power Repel where the endurance cost is partially based on number of affected targets. That way, if you're only affecting yourself, the endurance cost is low(er) ... and if you're buffing an entire Team-8 then the endurance cost is the same as what we've got right now on Live. S imple E asy E ffective |
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Second ... make the power have both a self-only and a PBAoE buff component to it. The PBAoE will maintain the exact same values as what we see now on Live. The self-only value would also be the exact same values as what we see now on Live. Net result: the player with Maneuvers gets "double value" from Maneuvers at all times ... once from the PBAoE and once from the self only. Such an arrangement makes Maneuvers "valuable" even in solo play, while at the same time preventing the Team Buff from becoming "too large" and unbalancing in Team-8 play. S imple E asy E ffective ... not being done. 
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Compare it to force field generator or dispersion field. It is a very decent power, and works just fine as it is. All the leadership toggles are slightly end heavy, but I think that is ok for the power they bring when stacked.
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Leadership toggles only affect teammates, not all allies in radius. That said, you can still get a much larger than 8-man team, once you include things like pets, so your point still stands, but it's actually both more generally applicable than just raids, and not quite as bad.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Err, you are aware this power effects up to 255 people right? Think for a moment what happens in a mothership or hami raid. Extremely bad idea.
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No one with that proposed version of the power would want to be on a team with a Mastermind or probably even a Fire Control character, though.
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Hmmm... I ran a team last night with four masterminds, so that maneuvers would have its endurance cost increased for 31 extra targets.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Leadership toggles only affect teammates, not all allies in radius. That said, you can still get a much larger than 8-man team, once you include things like pets, so your point still stands, but it's actually both more generally applicable than just raids, and not quite as bad.
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Imagine running maneuvers on an all mastermind team. Or think about the poor thugs mastermind tier two henchmen that run leadership. What if a team of 8 thugs masterminds all called in gang war at the same time?
At the very minimum, you'd have to pay the cost for 136 entities.
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I hate to say this, because I think it's a terrible idea, but it is possible to have a power's additional endurance cost cap out at 8 entities while its buff targets cap out at 255 entities.
But it's still a terrible idea. Maneuvers is not Weave. And if you want to blame anything for Maneuvers and Weave granting small bonuses... blame linear buff stacking. And call for Diminishing Returns in PvE, because that's exactly what it'd take for Maneuvers and Weave to grant significant defense. It might have been a great idea if DR on buffs had been implemented at launch, but there's no way in hell it could be rolled out now.
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I guess this is what I need to start doing then. Promoting the use of grabbing this power. =)|
Originally Posted by Biospark
But I figured if I do MY part and advocate how awesome they are, sooner or later I could see more and more folks using them.
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Especially with the people who I am consistently teaming with every night.
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Yep. If you grab Tactics, run an Arachnos mission and let everyone realise why they can still see through the smoke grenades. That often helps to get converts to Leadership.
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Originally Posted by Andferne
I guess this is what I need to start doing then. Promoting the use of grabbing this power. =)
Especially with the people who I am consistently teaming with every night. |
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It's easier to find people willing to pickup leadership villainside because of synergy with the VEATS. Everyone knows how cool it is to have one or two on your team, and quite a few of us are smart enough to pickup a leadership toggle or two to help out.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Yep. If you grab Tactics, run an Arachnos mission and let everyone realise why they can still see through the smoke grenades. That often helps to get converts to Leadership.
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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I love it when people read only what they want to hear. |
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Two things would make Maneuvers really competitive in this game.
First ... make the endurance cost dependent upon how many targets are affected by the power. This kind of mechanic is already seen in the Kinetics power Repel where the endurance cost is partially based on number of affected targets. |
I pointed out that the KIND OF mechanic needed to amortize the amount of endurance cost for buffing teams already exists in how Repel functions. I did not say "port it wholesale without making ANY changes" at any time. Didn't stop people from jumping to ridiculous conclusions of exact substitution equivalencies however.
Toggle Cost: 0.08 End/sec (on par with Combat Jumping)
Activate Period: 0.5 sec
-0.01 End per Target Affected [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
= 0.24 End/Sec when affecting 8 Targets (including Self)
= 0.40 End/Sec when affecting 16 Targets (including Self)
And that's just for example of what would be possible to do.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
The only thing about these two powers that I don't see as "balanced" (very subjective opinion by the way) is the fact that Tankers can get as much mileage out of CJ as opposed to taking Maneuvers. On my Defender, combining the 2 powers is a decent amount of "self-defense" AND the team benefit. On a Tanker, you would think the benefit would be about the same, but its not. This makes Maneuvers not very attractive for a Tanker (or scrapper for that matter).
Saying "unbalanced" is probably a mis-nomer, but its something that I find ODD. Tankers and Scrappers are better off pursuing Weave if they want another defense toggle. This leads to taking an unwanted Attack to get there, which is something I personally find annoying about the fighting pool powers. |
Well any At with mez protection will get more mileage (and better self defense values) out of leadership pools since it never turns off ( for them).
VEATs were built around stacked Leadership being incredibly awesome.
But combat jumping costs essentially no Endurance for some defense, and you can plop handy IOs in it. So it's nice. Hover should be just as cheap, imo, especially considering it's so frelling SLOW.
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I find it annoying Babs never made an animation that didn't sheath your weapons with those 2 attacks for weapon user. Especially since Babs made Brawl animations that have hilt-butts and kicks with your weapon still drawn so it should be simple to make them work using those animations, right? It makes Boxing/Kick a wasted requisite power if you're a weapon user...well, unless you enjoy causing yourself redraw.
| something I personally find annoying about the fighting pool powers. |
Babs wouldn't have had to make "An animation", he would have had to make something like 40 animations. Per weapon type. Flying, huge, female, etc etc etc.
When you're adding a new weapon, you're doing those 40 animations once (for the new weapon). Which is still a big deal. When you're redoing all the old weapons you're doing it EVERY time. Which may be a big deal or not, I dunno...
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Which is a pretty hefty undertaking, except that he already made "kick without sheathing your weapon" animations for the existing weapons to use with Brawl.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Babs wouldn't have had to make "An animation", he would have had to make something like 40 animations. Per weapon type. Flying, huge, female, etc etc etc.
When you're adding a new weapon, you're doing those 40 animations once (for the new weapon). Which is still a big deal. When you're redoing all the old weapons you're doing it EVERY time. Which may be a big deal or not, I dunno... |
(I don't have characters with every weapon, so there may be some that don't have kick animations already, but I know that at the least quite a few of them do.)
I don't think BaBs will ever make punch and kick not put away weapons. Generally only powers from the weapons set, or a related set don't call redraw. Brawl and the inherent origin attacks are exceptions since they are just, originally, attack fillers for the early levels.
Also since punch and kick are pool powers I would expect all other primary/secondary sets to be changed first. Though I would love to see them work around the TA/AR redraw.
Dirges
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In terms of "which does the most to eliminate redraw" other primary/secondaries make more sense to rework. But in terms of "which one has the work already been mostly done for", eliminating redraw from Kick is the one that makes sense.|
Originally Posted by Dirges
I don't think BaBs will ever make punch and kick not put away weapons. Generally only powers from the weapons set, or a related set don't call redraw. Brawl and the inherent origin attacks are exceptions since they are just, originally, attack fillers for the early levels.
Also since punch and kick are pool powers I would expect all other primary/secondary sets to be changed first. Though I would love to see them work around the TA/AR redraw. |
It also might actually prompt people to take Kick instead of Boxing occasionally.
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That's actually not quite correct. It actually requires separate animations based on stance for a total of 12-16 animations per power (according to BABs):|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Babs wouldn't have had to make "An animation", he would have had to make something like 40 animations. Per weapon type. Flying, huge, female, etc etc etc.
When you're adding a new weapon, you're doing those 40 animations once (for the new weapon). Which is still a big deal. When you're redoing all the old weapons you're doing it EVERY time. Which may be a big deal or not, I dunno... |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...0&postcount=26
But yeah, that's still a lot of effort for minimal return (even if I would like it).
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Originally Posted by Iannis
VEATs were built around stacked Leadership being incredibly awesome.
But combat jumping costs essentially no Endurance for some defense, and you can plop handy IOs in it. So it's nice. Hover should be just as cheap, imo, especially considering it's so frelling SLOW. |
In considering Hover, while I do find it ponderously slow, I believe the end cost is there primarily to balance the fact that you can negate incoming melee attacks - which is a fantastically strong ability.
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IIRC, it was judged to be worth the time/work investment because Brawl is a power every character has, so the number of characters/players positively affected by the change is huge.
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Originally Posted by Ben_Arizona
Which is a pretty hefty undertaking, except that he already made "kick without sheathing your weapon" animations for the existing weapons to use with Brawl.
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Once Going Rogue goes live and we get people crossing from redside to blue, make sure to recruit a Night Widow or two to your teams. Their team oriented defense buffs are great and as a bonus they're offensive powerhouses.
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Originally Posted by Andferne
I guess this is what I need to start doing then. Promoting the use of grabbing this power. =)
Especially with the people who I am consistently teaming with every night. |
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Right, and I think that's fair. My point isn't "he did it for Brawl, so he should do it for every power!" My point is that the animations for kicking without putting away your weapon have already been made and are already in the game as a result of this. Although Kick does have a longer cast time than Brawl, so that may be an issue.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
IIRC, it was judged to be worth the time/work investment because Brawl is a power every character has, so the number of characters/players positively affected by the change is huge.
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After the nerf to the Blessing of the Zephyr set, I rebuild my Claws/SR Scrapper to include Maneuvers for going a travel power. 3 SR Toggles, Weave, Maneuvers, FA, Sprint, Ninja Run, and sometimes Tough. Needless to say I'm kind of endurance heavy; at least with everything running. I turn off Sprint and Ninja Run in battle. At least this way I'm still softcapped for Melee, Ranged, and most importantly AoE defense. Do not touch Maneuvers please.
Repel's endurance cost is twice that of the Leadership toggles (0.39 end, twice per second for a total of 0.78/s), plus a 1.0 endurance drain per target hit (and if you've got a target cornered, it'll hit them twice per second). You can reduce the former cost with endrdx enhancements (to approximately 0.4/s with full slotting), but the latter cost cannot be reduced. Not by enhancements, not by Conserve Power, nothing.
If you want to say that Repel's endurance cost is reduced for fewer targets, fine. Practically but not technically true. It's still one of the most expensive toggles in the game, even with that benefit. Even Superior Invisibility is cheaper if you have an enemy being bounced by Repel.
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