Reichsman is not fun.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-05-31 13:39 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Here's what I've gathered from the comments about the Kahn TF (and to a lesser extent, the Barracuda SF):
1) They suck because the story/writing isn't up to snuff. The "Why am I doing this?" part of the program. This is more subjective, and therefore harder to fix, than mechanical problems, and I doubt they'd be able to satisfy everyone with any change they make, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try at some point.
2) They suck because the AV fight is tedious. Here's the problem, though: Some folks don't like the grind of having to whittle down an AV with no challenge but how long it takes, and want some sort of alternate method of achieving victory (what the layman call a "gimmick"). Then there's the other group of people saying the gimmick (temp powers based on ATs on the team, or the perceived need to bring a certain team build or risk not being able to complete it) needs to go and "how dare they attempt to make me resort to tricks to finish a fight everything should be easy enough for the greenest Pug team to beat." Do you see how the Devs might be a bit confused as to how to proceed? Do you not see how there will always be a group of players that think Encounter A will suck no matter how it's presented?
Is there something wrong with designing a Task Force (by definition a team-based activity) that requires an actual Team and some coordination to accomplish? What makes beating on Reichsman for 10 min straight different than beating on Lord Recluse for 5 min, or beating on Marauder for 3 min? If the length of time it takes to defeat something determines whether something is fun or not, using that metric is going to make for some boring content. At best it will be trivial and at worst it's a time sink.
Give me more gimmicks in this game. At least it's a sign that the Devs are trying (and sometimes failing) to do something different.
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No.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
2) They suck because the AV fight is tedious. Here's the problem, though: Some folks don't like the grind of having to whittle down an AV with no challenge but how long it takes, and want some sort of alternate method of achieving victory (what the layman call a "gimmick"). Then there's the other group of people saying the gimmick (temp powers based on ATs on the team, or the perceived need to bring a certain team build or risk not being able to complete it) needs to go and "how dare they attempt to make me resort to tricks to finish a fight everything should be easy enough for the greenest Pug team to beat." Do you see how the Devs might be a bit confused as to how to proceed?
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1) "Some folks don't like the grind of having to whittle down an AV with no challenge but how long it takes"
Thus, reduce his hitpoints greatly. Any team that takes his life half-way can take his life all the way down. Unlike other encounters where fights can drastically change or something new and exciting can happen in this fight everything stays the same. There's no "increased danger" or "new encounter" once he reaches 1/2 hit points or so.
2) "Then there's the other group of people saying the gimmick (temp powers based on ATs on the team, or the perceived need to bring a certain team build or risk not being able to complete it) needs to go and "how dare they attempt to make me resort to tricks to finish a fight everything should be easy enough for the greenest Pug team to beat." "
Thus remove anything where "Only a player of type XXXX can do this". Other content merely encourages certain players or certain styles. In this one there is a line that literally cannot be crossed without the requisite archetype. One literally cannot push that button without being a stalker. Contrast to the Green Mitos in a Hamidon encounter. They highly encourage holds but other archetypes can pull it off too.
Two non-mutually exclusive steps. Do one AND do the other.
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| Do you not see how there will always be a group of players that think Encounter A will suck no matter how it's presented? |
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| Is there something wrong with designing a Task Force (by definition a team-based activity) that requires an actual Team and some coordination to accomplish? |
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| What makes beating on Reichsman for 10 min straight different than beating on Lord Recluse for 5 min, or beating on Marauder for 3 min? |
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| If the length of time it takes to defeat something determines whether something is fun or not, using that metric is going to make for some boring content. At best it will be trivial and at worst it's a time sink. |
Also, the Khan and Barracuda TF are minimum team size 4. How long do you think this encounter lasts on a team of 4? Would you consider it "lasting too long" on a team of 4?
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| Give me more gimmicks in this game. At least it's a sign that the Devs are trying (and sometimes failing) to do something different. |
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I've never done Barracuda, but having AT-specific temp powers means you need specific ATs on your team. This game has long ago moved away from the Tank-Healer-DPS model of other games. You can succeed at most tasks with a large variety of team configurations (all Trick Arrow STF, all Scrapper ITF), and in many cases that requires more teamwork and coordination than grabbing a meatshield, a bunch of buff/debuffers and some damage.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
Is there something wrong with designing a Task Force (by definition a team-based activity) that requires an actual Team and some coordination to accomplish? What makes beating on Reichsman for 10 min straight different than beating on Lord Recluse for 5 min, or beating on Marauder for 3 min? If the length of time it takes to defeat something determines whether something is fun or not, using that metric is going to make for some boring content. At best it will be trivial and at worst it's a time sink.
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There is no difference between beating on Reichsman for 10 minutes and beating on Recluse for 5 minutes, except that beating on Reichsman for 10 minutes requires an optimal team (otherwise it's more like 30), and beating on Recluse for 5 minutes is actually more dangerous.
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Huh... I honestly thought it was from Division: Line, but it turns out it's from the Organ Grinders. It makes sense it would be. OK, my bad.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Stephen Sheridan's arc. From the mission "Talk to Rebecca Brinell:"
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| You know, after reading that again, they really do make a big deal out of it, don't they? |
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So what's stopping them from having Task Forces that follow that model? They just added a Task Force in two parts, in response to complaints that the original was too long. World Wide Red also could stand to be rewritten under the new system. It's one of the best stories in the game, but its SOOOO long and tedious. It's pretty much in three parts anyway, so just tweak a bit of contact dialogue, tweak the design of the missions a bit, split it into three parts and call it a day. |
As far as World Wide Red goes, I actually don't want it split up. I prefer longer, more intricate stories tied together into gigantic arcs. So what if it's long? You don't have to do it in one sitting, so what does it really matter?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's an ugly straw man and you should know better. No-one has ever said that, so your argument currently addresses no point that has ever existed.|
Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
"how dare they attempt to make me resort to tricks to finish a fight everything should be easy enough for the greenest Pug team to beat."
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People have never been against gimmicks in general. We just don't like THIS particular gimmick. The game's primary failure in game play is and has always been that fights come down to what you bring and rarely down to what you do, making them pre-determined. And there's nothing duller in any game than predetermined fights.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I think people are pressed to push the "next" button as fast as they can because their teammates cannot see all the text going on. If the entire team was able to read the mission summaries and contacts as the TF progressed at least their would be more of a coherent feel to things.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
However, as story arcs have shown us, you CAN'T condense a story indefinitely. Even if you have excellent writing, some stories just take longer to tell. Granted, a lot of hero-side arcs are padded with missions that accomplish nothing, but a lot actually aren't. The response to "story arcs are too long" can be seen in CoV, where stories are still long, but split between several arcs and several contacts. For instance, all four of a villain Ptron's story arcs put together aren't longer than Crimson's World Wide Red, but the story is still staggered.
Personally, I enjoy long story arcs more so than short ones because I enjoy the story more than the rewards, and if I were ever given the chance to play a TF for the story, I would choose a longer TF over a shorter one. Sadly, the only way to play ANYTHING for the story is to play it by yourself, and I can't start TFs alone, and probably wouldn't be able to finish them if I could. |
As it stands, it's pretty much RTC or Call then click next, accept etc., because the entire team is waiting on you; they have nothing better to do since they cannot see what you are reading. Having a summary contact that summarized all the text and missions as it progresses (something like paragon wiki does here may work.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Jack has never struck me as a particularly perceptive man when it comes to the player base.
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It has mutated and grown beyond his original concept, some for much better and some for worse.
This game has gotten progressively easier and faster to accomplish tasks than before, with all the attendant issues that go along with it. I'm not sure if that is necessarily a good thing, even if the changes are really well liked. Things like debt caps and xp smoothing and level 50 influence bumps have really changed the nature of the game.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Of course, I1 gave us the 40-50 game which Jack says he and Positron designed around being "epic" and taking as long as 1-40, so it made sense it would be epic forced content all the way, hence the "AV in every mission" difficulty. People like me complained a lot, so eventually somewhere around I7 or I8, AVs began scaling down into EBs under certain conditions. And that's when TFs took their final turn into what they are today - "solo" content would scale down, but TFs never would.
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I've never been a fan of the mountain of HP for AVs in general. Felt very anti-climatic when I first reached AVs waaay back when. Reichman is just a bigger stack.
Still, the rest of the TF make it fun for me. I also really like the unique roles for ATs and countless waves of ambushes they put in villainside.
It'd be nice if he wasn't just a bigger stack of AV HP, but oh well, if it annoys you enough to not make it fun, just run the other TFs and avoid this one like the plague like some people do.
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This actually brings to mind a point I was thinking of posting in a new thread. We really need to look at storytelling mechanics for teams. One of the things that has not changed in COX much over the years is the way the story of our arcs are delivered to the players.|
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
I think people are pressed to push the "next" button as fast as they can because their teammates cannot see all the text going on. If the entire team was able to read the mission summaries and contacts as the TF progressed at least their would be more of a coherent feel to things.
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The problem can be seen when any player joins a group who are doing a story arc. Missions themselves do a very poor job of delivering the story they are supposed to be telling. In some ways, because of the randomization of maps and mobs and in other ways because of the front and back-loaded nature of the contact system.
It could be that some menu and interface work is needed to give a quick reference summary window for the story so far in a given arcs. But also I think that map design could use some serious reworking so that maps actually play a bigger role in delivering lore and additional information to players about what is going on.
Currently we have glowies for giving us clues. But once the glowie is clicked, that's it. Some persistent interactive objects within a mission(that any team member can use) would help a lot. Like computer terminals that offer information on what a facility is used for or notes left laying around by various members of the enemy group you are fighting. It's not like there is huge lack of games for the developers to draw inspiration from on this kind of thing.
Maybe even some voice recordings(although I'm pretty sure we'll never get voiced NPCs in this game).
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| As it stands, it's pretty much RTC or Call then click next, accept etc., because the entire team is waiting on you; they have nothing better to do since they cannot see what you are reading. Having a summary contact that summarized all the text and missions as it progresses (something like paragon wiki does here may work. |
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I'm not sure if it was perception or obstinacy. It took a heck of a lot of effort to even get the CoH concept to a launchable state and I bet his force of will and vision was one of the driving forces just to get it published. After that, some of his bullish nature worked against the player base and the nature of the game itself. It has mutated and grown beyond his original concept, some for much better and some for worse. |
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| This game has gotten progressively easier and faster to accomplish tasks than before, with all the attendant issues that go along with it. I'm not sure if that is necessarily a good thing, even if the changes are really well liked. Things like debt caps and xp smoothing and level 50 influence bumps have really changed the nature of the game. |
I always tend to think that the need for quicker leveling may also mean that there is a lack of variety in terms of gameplay and content that would make people less concerned about how fast they leveled(not that quicker leveling is always a bad thing), but I'm not sure if it made the game measurably better or just that you now notice the sucky parts less because they go by quicker. To each his/her own I guess.
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in the cuda sf, if you dont have a mm, reichsman goes into this extremely annoying "unhittable" phase which he seems to get increased regen from as well|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
I've never done Barracuda, but having AT-specific temp powers means you need specific ATs on your team. This game has long ago moved away from the Tank-Healer-DPS model of other games. You can succeed at most tasks with a large variety of team configurations (all Trick Arrow STF, all Scrapper ITF), and in many cases that requires more teamwork and coordination than grabbing a meatshield, a bunch of buff/debuffers and some damage.
There is no difference between beating on Reichsman for 10 minutes and beating on Recluse for 5 minutes, except that beating on Reichsman for 10 minutes requires an optimal team (otherwise it's more like 30), and beating on Recluse for 5 minutes is actually more dangerous. |
so if you dont have a mm to get the temp to make him not do that, unless you have a lot of -regen, then he will almost always regen back 1/4 of his hp and be near unkillable because he will always activate the power at 50% unless you do more dmg to him than he regens in that mode and before it recharges (i think its on a timer but im not quite sure)
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I agree last night I was on a Barracuda run that was the smoothest I have ever seen, I guess the actual MM fix for that Reichy works. We killed him (because we are evil and no better than to just defeat someone that powerful), right after his second "timeout", before the ambushes got bad. No one died from the ambushes|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
in the cuda sf, if you dont have a mm, reichsman goes into this extremely annoying "unhittable" phase which he seems to get increased regen from as well
so if you dont have a mm to get the temp to make him not do that, unless you have a lot of -regen, then he will almost always regen back 1/4 of his hp and be near unkillable because he will always activate the power at 50% unless you do more dmg to him than he regens in that mode and before it recharges (i think its on a timer but im not quite sure) |
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yeah, usually the mm temp is broken every other patch lol|
Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
I agree last night I was on a Barracuda run that was the smoothest I have ever seen, I guess the actual MM fix for that Reichy works. We killed him (because we are evil and no better than to just defeat someone that powerful), right after his second "timeout", before the ambushes got bad. No one died from the ambushes
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very glad that it is WAI lol
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Oh, certainly his cluelessness beyond his personal vision contains elements of both. Especially on the stuff he was surprised at that any 10 year old would have been able to tell him. |
PumBumbler shows various influences: I'm not sure if it was perception or obstinacy. |
Dec out.
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I haven't even done this one yet. I was out of the game for six months and since I came back in January, I've never seen the call go out to do it on our server channels. I may just be missing it, but yeah, I think people are avoiding it (and I can see why from this thread). I'll probably have to make it an SG event to do it.
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Necrotron_RO says avoid: I've never been a fan of the mountain of HP for AVs in general. Felt very anti-climatic when I first reached AVs waaay back when. Reichman is just a bigger stack. Still, the rest of the TF make it fun for me. I also really like the unique roles for ATs and countless waves of ambushes they put in villainside. It'd be nice if he wasn't just a bigger stack of AV HP, but oh well, if it annoys you enough to not make it fun, just run the other TFs and avoid this one like the plague like some people do. |
Dec out.
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I never heard if the specific problems I ran into a few times (Reichsie gets to a sliver of health and stays there) was related to other bugs that got stamped out or what. When the problem recurred even in the face of -regen being applied (and I was the /Rad doing it,) I tried to watch and see if that issue was officially addressed (I /bugged it each time.) I know there was a bug with the special weapons that got fixed, but I dunno about any others.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
I haven't even done this one yet. I was out of the game for six months and since I came back in January, I've never seen the call go out to do it on our server channels. I may just be missing it, but yeah, I think people are avoiding it (and I can see why from this thread). I'll probably have to make it an SG event to do it.
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The problem is that you won't know if you have a problem until you have been pounding on His Naziness for 30 minutes, at the tail end of the TF. If so, the whole TF goes down the spout, and that gets a lot of folks leery. That is not to say that it is not possible to simply fail a TF for whatever reason: I have been on some ill-fated Statesman TF runs that did not have the right personnel, could not get past the 4 AVs or what have you. But the Kahhhhhhhhhhhn! TF was so rocky for so long that there simply may be some reluctance now.
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You're probably the reason I just rolled my eyes over this and decided not to respond |
Originally Posted by Slashman
I nearly got crucified by Sam for voicing my displeasure with some of these changes. But my opposition to just 'making things easier', is that those changes never came with any balancing mechanics or a sense of we're adding new and different things to do.
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Believe me, my feelings on people's dislike for the levelling speed changes are very much as strong and as entrenched as they were before. As long as I can slow my levelling speed down, then I see no problem with it now.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You're entirely entitled to those feelings as I'm entitled to mine about the whole thing.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You're probably the reason I just rolled my eyes over this and decided not to respond
Believe me, my feelings on people's dislike for the levelling speed changes are very much as strong and as entrenched as they were before. As long as I can slow my levelling speed down, then I see no problem with it now. |
And I still think that leveling speed being increased if the developers felt that overall progress to level 50 is too slow is one thing. But that increasing leveling speed because: a) You want to make sucky parts of the game go by quicker or b) It lets you get around adding content to the parts of the game where it is thinnest are both the wrong reasons for doing such.
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Sure it does. Do you have the stamina as a player to keep fighting?|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Tediously hitting the same large sack of hit points for an extended period of time doesn't equate to challenge.
There can be 0 risk of actually dying - and on most teams I've done a Khan TF with, that was very close to the case - and it can still be boring as heck. Think of the computer in the ITF as a comparable case, only Reichsman has more hit points and doesn't even have the benefit of going over the aggro cap to possibly worry squishies. It's not a barrier of difficulty as much as a barrier of patience. |
And really. I don't see the problem. You're going mission to mission hitting the same keys over and over that you are when you face Reichs.
The difference is, you're not taking him out as quicly.
If you have 100,000 LTs Rank enemies around, you go "FUN!" becaus eyou clicking your buttons and watching them die.
If you have 1 opponent that is equal to 100,000 Lt Rank enemies around, you go "Boring" because...you're hitting the same buttons over and over again that you would on 100,000 LTs? o.O
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I'm unsure of what you are saying.
Are you saying that fighting Reichsman is similar to fighting 10,000 Lts?
Or are you saying that fighting Reichsman is dissimilar to fighting 10,000 Lts?
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Hmmm...maybe I didn't make it clear.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
I'm unsure of what you are saying.
Are you saying that fighting Reichsman is similar to fighting 10,000 Lts? Or are you saying that fighting Reichsman is dissimilar to fighting 10,000 Lts? |
Everyone is saying it takes to long to beat Reichs. It's not fun because they have to smash away at buttons for so long.
Well, that's what you're doing anyways, when you run missions. Smashing away at buttons.
The only difference is, that you're going with mass defeats versus one hard defeat.
You're doing the same amount of button smashing in 30mins of missioning, that you are in 30mins of beating on one target. Which as the stamina threads show, is what people want to do...keep on smashing non stop.
So, were's the difference? It's not in the button smashing. It's in the WE DEFEATED THE ENEMY/ENEMIES!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I am unclear on what you are saying here. Specifically, I do not understand what you mean by "stamina threads" and "what people want to do...keep smashing non stop". |
Originally Posted by BrandX
You're doing the same amount of button smashing in 30mins of missioning, that you are in 30mins of beating on one target. Which as the stamina threads show, is what people want to do...keep on smashing non stop.
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| So, were's the difference? It's not in the button smashing. It's in the WE DEFEATED THE ENEMY/ENEMIES! |
I enjoy the Reichsman fight as much as I enjoy sitting at my desk with my computer off while pressing 1-2-3-4 repeatedly for a half hour. I cannot discern a significant different between fighting Reichsman and pressing 1-2-3-4 with my computer off.
Unless BrandX is being purposely obtuse, the difference should be abundantly clear.
Mob group variety is the difference between pounding on a single sack of HP for 30 minutes and fighting a variety of foes for the same duration.
When you do a Tsoo mission, you may get mobs made of any combination of Ink Men, Enforcers, Ancestor Spirits, Sorcerers or bosses. The fact that each spawn is not going to be the same makes a world of difference in how you approach the fight. To say that fighting a single, stupidly bloated AV is the same as that is ludicrous.
Most AVs in this game are not very interesting to fight. Many enemy groups, however, provide enough variety that a player generally has to be at least mindful of how he/she approaches a spawn.
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Okay, when you fight Reichsman...what are you doing? You're pressing 1-2-3-4.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
I am unclear on what you are saying here. Specifically, I do not understand what you mean by "stamina threads" and "what people want to do...keep smashing non stop".
As explained several times in this thread the difference between Reichsman and fighting a large horde of enemies is action, excitement and entertainment. I enjoy the Reichsman fight as much as I enjoy sitting at my desk with my computer off while pressing 1-2-3-4 repeatedly for a half hour. I cannot discern a significant different between fighting Reichsman and pressing 1-2-3-4 with my computer off. |
When you fight a multiple of enemies that aren't AVs...what are you foing? You're pressing 1-2-3-4.
The difference is purely in seeing enemies fall faster, and moving onto a new enemy.
Otherwise, you're doing the same thing over and over...pressing 1-2-3-4.
The difference is...with moving group to group it's basically...captain america fighting a bunch of ninjas. He's wading through them.
Reichsman is Captain America coming up against the leader of the Hand, and having a bigger longer fight on his hand.
In game terms, what I'm hearing here is...I'd rather be a superhero who deals with weaker criminals than the actual real A list big badguys, because, I want to see lots of bodies versus 1 tough opponent.
Because in game terms no matter how you look at it...you're pressing 1-2-3-4.
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At first I was simply confused. Now I'm thinking I'm being trolled.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
Unless BrandX is being purposely obtuse, the difference should be abundantly clear.
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I believe I'm being told that playing City of Heroes is the same as having my computer turned off and pressing keys on my keyboard **EDIT** or maybe we're talking to an AI program or a robot who is incapable of grasping the concept of "entertainment".
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Not trolling at all.|
Originally Posted by Smurphy
At first I was simply confused. Now I'm thinking I'm being trolled.
I believe I'm being told that playing City of Heroes is the same as having my computer turned off and pressing keys on my keyboard **EDIT** or maybe we're talking to an AI program or a robot who is incapable of grasping the concept of "entertainment". |
I'm saying, I find it fun. Me taking on a bag of hit points makes me think I'm fighting a real super hero fight.
I'm saying I don't see the reasoning of "pressing 1-2-3-4" as a factor of not being fun, when that's what you're doing when you're wading through mob after mob anyway.
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He doesn't. He simply has too much power to be shackled to the whims of a group that didn't have the gumption to stay in the game in the first place. If he serves anybody, he serves Axis Amerika. However, I don't see that being the case. I see him being a leader in his own right (much like Tyrant/Emperor Cole). Where the Praetorians are intent on making a "Lie of Utopia" world, Reichsman has no qualms about keeping his world in a state of perpetual war (a la Nineteen Eighty-Four).
Rikti are humans. Biologically, they're not aliens at all, just highly mutated human beings. That means that the Rikti homeworld is not another planet, but an alternate Earth. You can imagine the panic if this was to get out. Not like anyone would really believe it though.
One thing we aren't sure of is if the Rikti themselves know this fact. If they did, they would most likely try to use it to their advantage somehow.
World Wide Red also could stand to be rewritten under the new system. It's one of the best stories in the game, but its SOOOO long and tedious. It's pretty much in three parts anyway, so just tweak a bit of contact dialogue, tweak the design of the missions a bit, split it into three parts and call it a day.
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