Repairing the merit system and the markets
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2010-05-30 23:45 in The Market and Inventions
Quote:
Instead of X merits, give 'em an X-merit discount on their first roll on a character. Functionally equivalent under the present system, allows account-wide merit sharing, and if the select-roll-level system only allows you to roll at the rolling alt's level or below, creating a new alt just to roll cheap is only going to net you low-level recipes.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
give the vets something else. they won't cry.
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@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
I've been generating a LOT of MA tickets the last month or so and rolling everything in the bronze 35-39 range. Whenever I fill up my inventory (currently 25 recipes on my ar/dev) I get between 40-50% 'keepers', defined as recipes going for 500k+ with plenty of outstanding bids. Anything below that threshold I delete on the spot. For a while I was checking the disparity between recipe and crafted IO, but the IO won so often and by such a ridiculous margin that now I just craft everything and either stick it in base storage (all the Melee stuff, anticipating the eventual arrival of the Kinetic Melee set) or list it. |
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
This means that for the drops you are getting, perhaps 10-30% of them are craft worthy. Maybe more, it's just a WAG. That means there's the salvage and crafting overhead attached rollling - potentially 11x more overhead than just buying a single recipe and listing it on the market.
For me, I have to balance that with the convenience and 'down time' of NOT running another TF. In some ways it also is easier since I have too many merits to deal with. Blasting away 200-250 merits in one go is alot easier to manage than waiting on all sorts of bids because I decided to roll 500 merits to avoid the cap. |
Making the assumption that there's about the same % of junk in the corresponding merit pool (which may be totally wrong, I don't roll many merits so I have no idea), and given the greater prevalence of ultra valuable recipes, rolling seems like a no-brainer to me.
The recent changes to the email system largely negate the volume issues. If I find myself drowning in drops with my market slots clogged, I just farm stuff out to alts. But I've found that pricing stuff to move mostly takes care of the issue. Undercutting the going rate by enough to come in below the marketeers but above where the bottom feeders are looking for deals results in a quick sale at the high end of the current price range 8 times out of 10.
And one of the only handy features of the new market interface, 'find salvage', makes getting what you need super easy. I wildly overpay so I get it NAO, which keeps my slots free without affecting my profit in any meaningful way. When the recipe is going for 1 mil and the crafted IO is going for 10, spending 100k on salvage right nao instead of 20k with an overnight wait is a no brainer.
None of this will make crafting appealing to someone who hates it, but it isn't the PITA it used to be and the profits are absolutely ridiculous.
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Quote:
If I'm reading this right, basically you're saying "give people the option to take a bad deal", that is, receive a recipe roll instead of merits equal to or greater than the price of that roll. I guess some people might take that option, but I'm not a big fan of systems deliberately designed to prey on the uninformed. I'd rather give people no choice than a fool's choice. |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Compromise suggestion 7:
At the end of a tf give the option of a number of random rolls equal to the number of merits the tf gives. The old window. You take the roll(s) you get no merits. If a tf doesn't give enough for a random roll, then you simply get the merits. The window should allow you to select the LEVEL of the roll(s). Notice I said OPTION and NOT forced rolls. |
(Which is pretty much why I support forced random rolls - the mere existence of other options is harmful, although the harm it does is subtle and difficult to explain. Basically, taking the choice of a straight buy can be beneficial to an individual, but the lack in supply resulting from many individuals taking that choice is a harm shared by all the participants whether they take that choice or not - and indeed, when some take the choice to merit buy, the resulting supply lack encourages others to merit buy, compounding the problem. But good luck getting anyone to understand why letting them have nice things means that they have fewer nice things...)
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
Quote:
I think the issue is for some folks the market just doesn't exist. They couldn't care if you allowed everything to sell for 1 inf. The fact that they have to touch the market is what they hate.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
If I'm reading this right, basically you're saying "give people the option to take a bad deal", that is, receive a recipe roll instead of merits equal to or greater than the price of that roll. I guess some people might take that option, but I'm not a big fan of systems deliberately designed to prey on the uninformed. I'd rather give people no choice than a fool's choice.
(Which is pretty much why I support forced random rolls - the mere existence of other options is harmful, although the harm it does is subtle and difficult to explain. Basically, taking the choice of a straight buy can be beneficial to an individual, but the lack in supply resulting from many individuals taking that choice is a harm shared by all the participants whether they take that choice or not - and indeed, when some take the choice to merit buy, the resulting supply lack encourages others to merit buy, compounding the problem. But good luck getting anyone to understand why letting them have nice things means that they have fewer nice things...) |
There is also the issue of not having the patience to wait, thus even if they did the random rolls, they would STILL have to find the salvage (either by market, ae tickets, drops, divining rod
), then go to a university and craft, THEN put the stuff on the market, AND THEN still have to WAIT for the random rolled items to sell (this is most CERTAINLY NOT a fast process if they are red side), then come back and collect the inf to buy what they want.As opposed to just playing the game, doing no marketing, and simply "buying" the item they want with merits. Meaning they only need to craft ONE item, with the only wait time being one they can completely control.
THAT is partially why I'm against forced rolls. If you want folks to roll there need to be incentives that make it a good idea to do so. I think my suggestions do that better than the OPs.
There is also TWO other factors here folks aren't mentioning: 1. The idea that if they are forced to roll, they will automatically put it on the market. I categorically disagree with this assumption. First, I can roll as much as I want, craft then STORE the items in my base. 2. I can VENDOR those items as soon as I get them.
Thus I don't agree with the idea that forcing random rolls automatically means those items end up on the market.
If (for whatever logical or illogically) for whatever reason I despise using the market, forcing me to random roll (and thus potentially pissing me off more about the overall inventions system) is NOT guaranteed to get me to use the market more. Thus those items may or may not get on the market.
Also as an aside, i don't think the I17 market interface makes people want to use the market more. From what little I've heard here on the forums, in b-cast, and in the ingame channels, the new interface does the complete opposite due to how craptacular some of its "features" are.
Just my two cents.
EDIT: As an aside, I agree if it's a choice between the my suggestion 7 and no forced rolls at all, I think it's clear which option I am agreeing with. I only put that in as the compromise option.
What they need to do is figure out what about the market/inventions system that makes folks want to use merits to get the exact recipe they want, as opposed to doing 10 rolls. We have theories here in the market forum, what the devs need to do is find out exactly why. (If they can.)
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I refer folks to this thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=220546&page=4
about how folks see the new I17 market interface.
If us forum goers say this, I can only imagine what the ingame larger population is saying.
THAT can't be good for getting more stuff on the market.
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Forced rolls when you accumulate enough merits would force people to roll low-level garbage instead of allowing people who ALREADY ROLL to save up until they reach a level where there is a good chance the stuff they roll will be desirable. That is why I'm completely and firmly against them.
Fix the level slider, let it go up to +3, and see if that helps mid-level supply. People are bidding on these things, so obviously they want them, but as it stands if want to generate pool Cs that I can use for my level 35 exemp-friendly build I have to level-lock my character at 35. I've done that once, and I'm not doing it again.
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And there is that first point. Never even thought of what it would do to those who already roll. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Forced rolls when you accumulate enough merits would force people to roll low-level garbage instead of allowing people who ALREADY ROLL to save up until they reach a level where there is a good chance the stuff they roll will be desirable. That is why I'm completely and firmly against them.
Fix the level slider, let it go up to +3, and see if that helps mid-level supply. People are bidding on these things, so obviously they want them, but as it stands if want to generate pool Cs that I can use for my level 35 exemp-friendly build I have to level-lock my character at 35. I've done that once, and I'm not doing it again. |
Good point Eva.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Yah, I'll be the first to admit that I've been spoiled by the volcano of riches that rolled down the merit train.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
And one of the only handy features of the new market interface, 'find salvage', makes getting what you need super easy. I wildly overpay so I get it NAO, which keeps my slots free without affecting my profit in any meaningful way. When the recipe is going for 1 mil and the crafted IO is going for 10, spending 100k on salvage right nao instead of 20k with an overnight wait is a no brainer.
None of this will make crafting appealing to someone who hates it, but it isn't the PITA it used to be and the profits are absolutely ridiculous. |
I'm also really cheap (in game) so I find it hard not to lowball and wait for salvage to come in. I list things for a good price (pretty much the same way you do it, except when there's zero for sale, hehe).
Getting my first (and only) Crafting station accolade broke me of wanting to craft things, so I kind of find a lot of it just plain annoying now. I suppose I'm getting curmudgeonly as time goes on. Now get off my Lawnworth's!
Instead of making massive changes to the merit system, the devs should first make one change: allow you to select the level of the recipe when rolling randomly with merits. There are plenty of players in the know who would then make mid-level rolls. That would give us some data pretty quickly about what the effect on the market would be.
If that increases mid-level supply satisfactorily, then we don't need to change anything else.
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Can't tell you how many times this suggestion has been made. |
Originally Posted by Rodion
Instead of making massive changes to the merit system, the devs should first make one change: allow you to select the level of the recipe when rolling randomly with merits. There are plenty of players in the know who would then make mid-level rolls. That would give us some data pretty quickly about what the effect on the market would be.
If that increases mid-level supply satisfactorily, then we don't need to change anything else. |
it's WIN every time though.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Oddly enough all these suggestions have been made before and the devs don't like them anymore now than they did the last time.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I don't agree that anyone should be forced to roll their merits.
Also increasing a random roll from 20 to 25 is a horrible idea, as already many toons have fractions of a random roll sitting on various toons. Increasing it above 20 would make that situation WORSE. The best suggestions would be to: 1. Decrease the cost of a random roll to 15, 2. let anyone choose the EXACT level of the random rolls they make, 3. award one merit for every non-newspaper mission completed, 4. if an arc rewards merits give everyone on the team the full amount PROVIDED they were there for every mission of an arc (whether it's their mission or not), 5. increase the number of drops each team member gets while you are on a team. 6. Finally ALL merits should be in a pool account wide. So that you don't have fractions of merits on various toons or alts that don't get played for weeks, months at a time. AE tickets should be left as is. This aspect is one of the few reasons left to use that retarded rp system (IMO). And finally, merge the ******* markets. My suggestions are all that need to be done. AGAIN: I don't agree that anyone should be forced to roll their merits. If a person wants to specifically save for ONE specific IO, that is their business. |
This means that new or at least innovative suggestions are going to be needed rather than making the same suggestions over and over that will continue to be rejected.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Anyone that uses the market.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Broken for whom ?
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| I really wasn't pleased when merits were put in, and from my point of view they still leave much to be desired but you have to ask just who does this really benefit ? |
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| blah blah blah. |
For those that don't wish to use the market (which is the fastest way to IO out a toon almost without exception) SOs and common IOs are still readily available.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Increase the merit cost of a random roll by *5 merits (to 25) [bear with me and don't freak out there's a reason].
Obviously you do not play Villain side... when merits came out we had SFs that used to get a random roll, but don't now... So before they go raising random rolls they need to look at that problem. Any SF that used to get a random should still get a random. Why is it that most of the Hero SFs get a ton of merits while our Villain SFs got nerfed, and don't tell me it's cause our SFs are easier cause they are not. You guys have an SF that I hear takes about 30/45 mins and it is worth 100 plus merits... while we have the respec that is worth 14 and the binder of the beast that is worth 13. The Binder if you do not speed through can take a couple hours... and even speeding is about 30. Respec if you kill all could take an hour, and about 20 mins give or take on a speed. The merit system was a great idea, but the Villains got the short end of the stick as usual.
Remove Gold rolls from the MA and make Merit content/boss defeats outside MA the only way to generate Pool Cs. Then increase the ticket cost for Bronze rolls by 25%
Don't remove gold rolls, but actually cut the cost in half... 4,000 tickets. Odds are you are gonna get some piece of junk that's not worth a mil. I don't take them for that reason. It takes a while to get 4,000 tickets, and then you end up wasting them.
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However, there is one problem with the system that gimps this plan. If I take random rolls, I don't get them at the level I want. Until (unless) this is changed, I have to keep buying specific recipes to get the ones I want.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
If you have 250 merits you can make 12 random rolls. If the pool you are rolling in has only 32 possible recipes in it the chances that you get the one you are looking for is good though certainly not assured. It's because your sample size is too small.
Most people don't want just a single recipe though. If you have enough merits to buy 3 Pool Cs that's 750 merits or 37.5 rolls. If things work perfectly you'll get 1 of each type recipe and 5 extras. So not only will you get all 3 of the recipes you are after but you'll also have 1 of each of the others many of which you'll also want. The larger your sample size the more likely you are to get all the Pool Cs you want. |
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Don't roll on your 50. Park a character at 25, run Oro missions solo for merits, and TFs in groups.
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One of the probems with market supply is that people can (and do) WASTE 230 merits buying a single recipe.
Would you rather spend 200 merits on a recipie or 200 million. I prefer the merits. It's not a waste if you are getting something you need... and besides that people are complaining that everyone rolls the 50 roll. I do not roll til I am 50, but I only do TFs at 50, but I roll at lower level in hopes of getting a good mid level recipie... Like Bas Gaze, Kin Combat, or the miracle recov. It cost me 200 mil to get the Numi Reg/Recov. I really regret not waiting to use my merits for it. That 200 mil could have been used to buy recipies on the market that cost less. The market is messed up because drops are messed up. If the devs would up the supply AKA drops, then the market prices will go down.
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You were lied to. There is exactly ONE task force that awards 100 or more merits and a good team can do it in five hours.|
Originally Posted by Pimpstress_Bambi
Any SF that used to get a random should still get a random. Why is it that most of the Hero SFs get a ton of merits while our Villain SFs got nerfed, and don't tell me it's cause our SFs are easier cause they are not. You guys have an SF that I hear takes about 30/45 mins and it is worth 100 plus merits...
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Villain strike forces award less merits because they are SHORTER. It has nothing to do with difficulty.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
They are shorter on average because more new people play heroes, than villains, and the villains that do the SFs go for speed. If we had as many noobs on our side as the hero side then our SFs would have a longer time average. I know when I first started doing the LRSF when I was a noob it took 2-3 hours, and sometimes we failed. Now I am not a noob and the average time is between 30mins to an hour. ITF as a noob took an hour-2 hours... Now we average it at 30mins-an hour. I still think any SF that was rewarded a random roll should still get one.
I'm pretty new, so I offer my suggestions with a pinch of salt.
But this game does not lack for an economy. It lacks *compatibility* of economies.
I think a lot of problems with Merit Rewards - in both directions - are suddenly solved if you can (1) buy/sell them on the market, or (2) sell them (on an individual basis) to Merit Vendors.
Make every Merit worth, say, 25,000* to the Merit Vendors, so that someone who runs a TF can just convert it straight into money.
Similarly, MA tickets should be vendorable (for maybe 100*, though - they're substantially easier to come by!), and able to be sold on the market.
Once you can buy random-rolls on the market (buy 20 Merits, get a random-roll), their true value will become very quickly known.
[Blah blah Vet Rewards, blah blah blah. Yeah, that's a problem, but it wasn't my idea to get Merit Rewards as Vet Rewards.]
* - I made these numbers up. Values would obviously be hotly contested...
Pimpstress: Please learn to use the quote tags.
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Well then there is no need to force people to take random rolls on the way up. The Max level items have always commanded a premium price and still do. The only exceptions are procs and globals and even those tend to have a U shaped price distribution. The only thing making people take random rolls on the way up does is force them to sell at a disadvantage, at a time when the toon has less slots and less storage.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Anyone that uses the market.
Anyone that uses the market. |
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This is the market forum. We want to fix the markets for the players that use the market. Players that don't use the market are transparent to us. For those that don't wish to use the market (which is the fastest way to IO out a toon almost without exception) SOs and common IOs are still readily available. |
When you say all people that use the market that is clearly not the case. The people taking advantage of the concentration of activity at the top level and making good use of it will clearly not benefit from these changes. They will have to search more and become more familiar with other level ranges whats more this has the net effect of fragmenting the market into many more little off level markets.
It will be a giant benefit to people that go around placing bids on little used alts and checking in on them every few weeks
Weather or not you agree with what I see as the effects, your changes certainly will not benefit everyone. Not even everyone that likes and wants to participate in the market.
To do the actual quote thing it quotes everything, but if there is an easier way to quote and only use part of it without having to delete then I will use it.
Cut and paste and put between quote tags:
[null]blah[/null]
only replace null with quote
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| blah |
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@Boltcutter in game.
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Wrong.|
Originally Posted by Pimpstress_Bambi
They are shorter on average because more new people play heroes, than villains, and the villains that do the SFs go for speed.
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They are shorter on average because the devs left out the garbage - like 3 consecutive defeat all missions, multiple outdoor hunts, etc. The newer blue side task forces are similar.
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| If we had as many noobs on our side as the hero side then our SFs would have a longer time average. I know when I first started doing the LRSF when I was a noob it took 2-3 hours, and sometimes we failed. Now I am not a noob and the average time is between 30mins to an hour. ITF as a noob took an hour-2 hours... Now we average it at 30mins-an hour. |
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But seriously, if there's one suggestion that seems both popular and reasonable to implement it's being able to select your own roll level. The rest is nice, but as long as people don't roll their merits, there'll still be a lack of supply of pool C/D recipes. Switching over to 100% forced rolls is, well, let's call it unlikely due to pitchforks and torches and leave it at that - but some automatic generation of pool C/D recipes would be helpful.
At the end of a tf give the option of a number of random rolls equal to the number of merits the tf gives. The old window. You take the roll(s) you get no merits.
If a tf doesn't give enough for a random roll, then you simply get the merits.
The window should allow you to select the LEVEL of the roll(s).
Notice I said OPTION and NOT forced rolls.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!