I think I'll give this whole Controller thing one more go

I'm currently the owner of a level 50 Grav/TA Controller. It's fun as heck, even if not the super optimum build it's still pretty darn strong. I've since tried other Controller combinations, but none of them have really worked out for me. With Grav/TA, I felt strong out of the gate. I could hold a boss without Overpower proccing by level 8 and easily keep three or more enemies under control by DOs. I could then follow up with Lift and Propel to pull some rather respectable damage. I felt strong early, and being super end light was icing on the cake. And it just got better when I got two mass holds, Wormhole, OSA + Icestorm... yeah, it gets crazy. With other combos I've tried so far, I just don't feel it. I find myself tickling mobs to death and making no real progress without someone to smack them for me. On various sets I've been told "Oh, you'll be happy when you finally get the 30s". I don't want to have to wait until I'm that high to feel content with a toon. If I'm not satisfied by the teens, then that's it for me. It doesn't need to be an early blooming character (heck, one of my favorites is my human-only PB, and that's certainly a late bloomer), I just need to feel capable of performing well.

So, after last night where, after a teamwipe, I hit a wakie, break free, blue, and somehow managed to escape the mob around me and then kill an ambush with my health never leaving the red and my teammates running a long way back from the hospital, I figured I'm pretty good Controller player (that or I got really lucky). Regardless, it tempts me to take one more whack at the AT, that maybe there might be a different combo I'd enjoy. Figure rather than finding another one that bores me, I'd ask the more experienced Controllers and see if they had anything they could suggest.

Basically, what I need is...

*Decent damage fairy early. I'm not a DPS hound, but I don't want to feel like I'm tickling stuff to death. I'm wondering if it maybe DoTs that some of the other control sets have that give me this feeling. I recently discovered I don't like Dark Blast, and that's pretty DoT heavy as well. So, maybe I just need a Control set with a couple of decent, non-DoT attacks? ...on the other hand, OSA and Ice Storm are DoTs... but maybe it's the spam of numbers and the fact they both kill quickly despite not being a big number? Hmmm...

*Good early control. I want to be able to lock stuff down fairly well by the teens, ideally able to hold a boss on my own or 2-3 LTs/Minions. Grav/TA was able to do this easily, though I had two holds. Other sets do have some other mezzes though that would probably work instead.

I figure if those two are covered, I'd be happy. Even if the awesomeness of the combo blooms late, if I feel capable early on, I'll be fine and will be able to push onto higher levels where I can get whatever awesomeness the combo is supposed to have. Early blooming and end lightness, while appreciated, are hardly necessary.

I'm afraid if those are your expectations, you are going to be very disappointed no matter what you do.

Of the controller power sets, Gravity is the only one with a straight single target, high damage, non-DOT power. (Propel) For the most part Controllers rely on their Level 32 Pets for straight damage while soloing.

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Really, for what you want, which seems to be control AND Damage, make an Ice Blaster.

Or a dominator - I think that would be REALLY up your alley.

I agree, it sounds like you want an Ice/Ice blaster. Plant has very good early AoE control, but the damage from Roots is definitely Damage over Time. Illusion has a hard hitting early attack in Spectral Wounds (with a heal back unless you kill the foe quickly), but lacks much AoE control until Phantom Army. Earth and Ice are low damage, and Fire is a late bloomer with DoT.

An Ice Blaster gets two single-target ranged holds, and a third melee hold. The AoE control comes from Shiver, with a little help from Ice Patch.

Mind Control. Not the best AoE damager, certainly not a farmer, but a very steady set that handles bosses (not AVs) easily and is incredibly capable in the early levels. There is a slight delay in your development of strong AoEs. A lot of people criticize the set because Seeds of Confusion is so good, but Mind gets its strength from the sheer volume of options it offers rather than from one particular power. Fully built you will have one or more AoE control that is always ready, and also a throw-away AoE sleep you can use every 15 seconds or so just to keep enemies on their toes.

Mind/TA would work well, if you like TA enough to play it again, as would Mind/Rad.

I would echo those recommending a dominator, though; that seems like what you would enjoy playing most. You could play control-heavy secondaries such as earth assault (melee centric, good single target damage, and power boost makes your AOE controls last longer) or energy assault (stuns, again single target centric, again with power boost to make your AOE controls last longer).

Oh yes, I did discover Dominators a little bit before I had to unsub last year and they've since become my favorite villain AT (which, considering the MM, Brute, and Stalker feel too gimmicky to me, that wasn't hard). I got a couple, though they're both lowbies still since most of my friends play blue-side only. Can't way for GR in those respects.

Still, my altitis commands me to create another Controller to see if I might like any others. So, I'll give Mind a shot. The suggested Mind/TA and Mind/Rad do sound good, but I already have those secondaries elsewhere (aforementioned Grav/TA and also a Rad/Sonic Defender) and there's still plenty for me left to try. So, what should I know about Mind/ paired with /Cold, /Kin, /Sonic, /Storm, or /Thermal?

You may want to consider an Illusion/Radiation Controller, too. An Ill/Rad is the Jack-of-all-trades in CoH. You can Blast, Control, Defend and Tank. It works great solo, on small teams or on large teams. Overall, it can be one of the most powerful builds in the game for tough opponents, and is well-known as the AV Killer. If you want to find out a huge amount on that combo, take a look at my Ill/Rad guide.

Any controller can insta-hold bosses early on. It's called Ice Arrow. Make another */TA and you'll likely have all the controls you're looking for early on. If you want something just out of the primary, Plant gives you Seeds at 8, which is pretty much all you'll need for a long time. Plant/TA, by lvl 10, will have a relatively fast recharging cone confuse for all the minions & lts, and a stackable hold in Ice Arrow + Strangler for the boss. If you don't want another TA, Plant/Cold is a fantastic combo, though you won't get the insta-boss control. Plant/Rad will let you just put RI on it so it can't hit worth crap.

BTW, early lvl Mind can't complete w/Plant since Mass Confusion doesn't come til 32 and the "heavy hitter" of Terrify doesn't come til 26 either. Cone confuse >>> AoE sleep in most instances. For early control, I'd go Plant over Mind any day. Plus Roots, another early power, does excellent (for a controller) damage, though DoT.

Speaking of DoT, Plant if full of them, but they add up like crazy. I'm sure you enjoy Oil Slick Arrow, which is a high DoT, right? Plant has Rooted & Creepers both doing very nice DoT. Combine w/something like OSA, Sleet or FR and you'll see so many damn numbers ticking away, things *will* melt away. Fast. Esp combined w/confused damage due to Seeds, which I look at as one more DoT attack.

I was going to suggest Grav/TA as I agree with you, it's a very solid combo. But you've beaten me to it

Out-of-left-field suggestion is the Controller I made US side : Plant/Emp.

Totally different to my other 3 controllers (Illusion/Storm, Fire/Rad & Grav/TA) and excellent on teams. Very early control and you feel like you're really contributing to teams (something which Grav/TA can lack if the team is steamrollering I found).

Yes you've to buff a fair bit but it's kinda neat and a bit different. Plant means you can confuse things, lock them down and keep up with buffing without feeling dedicated to it or enslaved by it.


Or an Illusion/Stormie. They're not like Grav/TA in any way really but you do get some excellent off-the-wall control and lots and lots of chaos. Very different from the usual Controller style of play

Mind, much like grav matures very early in terms of st damage and st control. Mind is better at it early too. And just like grav it is surpassed by all the other sets once they mature in terms of damage.

If you want to feel strong right out of the gate I'd suggest trying mind. If you want to feel strong in terms of aoe control very early I'd suggest earth or plant. Plant also does very good aoe damage through confusion supported by roots. Your personal damage is dot, but mobs rip themselves apart very quickly.

I wouldn't suggest pairing mind with /ta though. Not that it isn't a good toon, but because the pacing of the two sets is out of sync. Grav fits really well with ta because they are both on the slow and methodical side of pacing, whereas mind is very fast.

I'd try a mind/rad, storm, or kin with the mind/rad fitting your needs best.

I wonder if our local Controller expert Local_Man can offer us some insight. In my limited(24 mos.) time playing this game I cannot imagine a Grav/TA being able to handle the most difficult of enemies that an Ill/Rad can. Am I wrong here?

I can say from my experience I toyed with Controllers here and there but I too wasn't very satisfied with some of the early level performance of various combos. I had always overheard the stories of the awesomeness of the Ill/Rad but I put it off for more than a year.

I finally dipped my toe into the powerset combo and W o W. Once I experienced the set I was dismayed I hadn't tried it earlier on. Now understand, my gaming philosophy is all about the best of the best.

Altitis is ok, but my joy is supreme effectiveness. To be more specific, supreme effectiveness at the high levels such as above level 40. Unless one is planning to farm Posi, I do not understand the need for an effective, low level dps controller.

I rolled a Mind/Kin once. He was pretty effective at the lower levels when I ran solo. Hit roadblocks post level 40 trying to run Tina Mac's and Maria's story arcs. My Mind/Kin is now permashelved.

I understand my gaming philosophy is very unique. To my detriment, I am all about reaching the pinnacle of effectiveness in all AT power set combos. I realize I am severely limiting my gaming experience but I'm ok with it. I want godmode, not altitis .

Okay, rant over.

My experience with Gravity is as a Grav/Storm. My experience with Trick Arrow is with an Illusion/TA, so I don't have direct experience with a Grav/TA. However, I think that the only secondaries I would consider pairing with Gravity are Storm, TA and, if it is ever offered, Traps. Grav starts out with pretty decent single target damage and weak AoE control. It finally gets some small amount of AoE control/distraction with Wormhole and Singularity. Singy has some damage, but it is pretty low compared to other controller pets . . . and this is where the right kind of secondary kicks in. Storm and TA have damage in the later levels in the secondary.

Mind is somewhat similar, but it is stronger on control. It has decent damage in the low levels with the Dominate-Mezmerize-Levitate attack chain. You get some weak AoE damage with Terrify, but Terrify provides good AoE control. However, Mass Confusion does not make up for the damage of a pet -- if you want to solo with a Mind Controller, you may want to consider a secondary (Storm or TA) with damage in the secondary in those upper levels. I have both a Mind/FF and a Mind/Storm, and the Storm is much better solo.

As I suggested above and as MileHigh77 so nicely confirmed, Illusion/Radiation is a very good build. Blind-Spectral Wounds gives you decent damage in the beginning. Phantom Army is a boost to your damage in the middle (18), and Phantasm is a boost to damage later (32).

Local beat me to it with the ice/ice blaster comment. They are very controllery. I'd play mine more but I named her Princess of Slush and I hate that name.

For damage and control early, I'd say fire/. But the problem with that is you're pulling so much aggro you faceplant every 20 minutes. Dishing the damage with just immob is gonna hurt.

That said, try out the Fire/Rad. And show up on Monday, Freedom, Talos dirt hill at 8pm Central and a group of them will be waiting to make teams and burn burn burn things. Ha ha ha ha ha.

I also like ill/storm. Very, very fun. Not very controllery, but can lock them down with fear. Too bad you can't test drive these.

Mind/Cold is my favorite character. Your mileage may vary. I think sometimes we just find a combo that does everything we wanted out of the game. That was Mind/Cold for me.

Essentially I play the character as something I call a "pre-tank." I use Super Speed and Arctic Air to rush in invisibly ahead of the team and Confuse any troublesome enemies. I keep the group slept so they won't kill each other while I'm setting up the fight. When the team arrives and fires their AoEs into the sleeping crowd, the confused enemies launch their alphas on each other. I use my AoE fears and such to add a little more safety for the group, buff and debuff as necessary, and then take off toward the next group when about 80% of the current group is handled. That way when the team gets to the next group it's basically a guilt free kill fest. Because of Heat Loss I can run Super Speed indefinitely. This keeps me invisible, and lets me rocket to the next group easily.

I think Plant Control is a fantastic set but it plays completely differently than Mind. As good as Seeds of Confusion is, the combo of an aggro-less single target confuse and an aggro-less AoE confuse is really outrageous. A lot of people try to play it using a "brute force" method and it's just not ideal for that. Mind Control's advantage is you can set up the battle field before enemies even know you are there. It's not the fastest but there is no reason you should EVER die unless you are just impatient.

Mind/Trick Arrow is fine btw but having two holds is kind of wasted. The trick with Mind Control is to disable the bosses from afar with a Confuse before starting the fight. When that's not possible, the pattern to use is Dominate > Levitate > Dominate. Dominate has no knockback (or knockup) protection, so you can stack a hold very easily using this pattern.

Someone mentioned Mind/Kin and I should warn that is not a combo I think I'd enjoy. Mind is a very clicky set. I find it works best (or at least is not as frustrating) with sets that have long duration/recharges. Storm, Cold, Radiation, are all top picks for me. But I think anything would work.

My Mind/Cold Troller is my favorite behind my Plant/Storm, but mostly because of the non-aggro sleeps that let you control the fight at your pace. That, and he's a wicked cool theme based on the Erl King.

I also love damaging WHILE sleeping. Possibly the most "controllery" from that perspective.

My Ice/Ice Blaster was the second character I rolled. Knowing nothing about the game, I thought "Shiver" would be a good name. It was taken, and I didn't realize it was the name of one of the powers. So, I added "Shot" to it and "Shiver Shot" was born. It is one of my least interesting names, but I love the character.

(My Ice/Storm controller, on the other hand, is more typical of my characters. He had a whole back story to go with his name. The hero's brother invented devices that drain heat and use the power to control the weather. Just as Crey came to "shake down" the brother to get the devices, the hero drops the devices down a storm drain. As he hides, helpless, the Crey goons kill the brother. So he calls himself "Storm Drain" to remind himself of his failure. It also shows Draining heat to make Storms.)

Give Illusion / Trick Arrow a try.

My background: After getting a Grav/Kin to 50, I tried out a whole bunch of controller combos for another that felt as hard-hitting, much like you. Illusion looked good, it has a pair of good, solid single-target attacks (Blind and Spectral Wounds). But the set loses a bit of Containment damage without any way to easily set up Containment, aside from Blind.

So I paired it with TA for Entangling Arrow. Entangle, Blind, SW, next! TA helps Illusion with a bit more control, and eventually, Phantasm will ignite Oil Slick Arrow for you, which is very convenient. Good combo overall, although it's a bit slower while Phantom Army is gone.

I keep hoping to find a Mind combo I enjoy.