Shield Offense
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-05-11 20:29 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Very Awesome. I seem to recall Shield Offense being discussed before. I think some of the animations just failed to work(such as Sheild Throw). Shield Charge screams of Offense, and may be the remnant of an Offense set. However, even Shield Charge doesn't work as originally intended.
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The quote, from the Devs, no less, went something along the lines of "We'll get right to work on Shield Offense as soon as we are done with Dual Archery Defense."|
Originally Posted by Derangedpolygot
Very Awesome. I seem to recall Shield Offense being discussed before. I think some of the animations just failed to work(such as Sheild Throw). Shield Charge screams of Offense, and may be the remnant of an Offense set. However, even Shield Charge doesn't work as originally intended.
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The general gist of the above being: Unless it locks you into Shield Defense as your only partnered powerset, the whole idea is patently stupid. You can carry a shield, throw it at people, hit people with it, but you can't block with the darned thing? The shield's primary function is to protect you. Being able to take Shield Offense without the game forcing you to take Shield Defense ranks right up there with Assault Rifle Melee (you know, that rifle set where you can't actually fire the rifle).
Shield Charge and your shield bash animation for Brawl will have to suffice, because the alternative is too stupid to program.
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It's not necessarily 'too stupid' inasmuch as it's 'too much effort for too little gain.'
As I recall, Castle had a conceptual issue with shield offense. Namely being that if any of the attacks involved throwing the shield (which given the source character, it almost would have to) then you should lose the defense during that attack. This also applies to a lesser degree to the idea of using your primary defensive measure as means to attack people. When the shield is being used offensively it is not being used to protect you.
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Give the "Shield Offense" set a defensive buff power and voila, regardless of whether you have Shield Defense having a Shield potentialy gives you extra defensive capability. This also complements the fact that Shield Defense has an offensive power rather nicely.|
Originally Posted by Lightfoot
The general gist of the above being: Unless it locks you into Shield Defense as your only partnered powerset, the whole idea is patently stupid. You can carry a shield, throw it at people, hit people with it, but you can't block with the darned thing? The shield's primary function is to protect you. Being able to take Shield Offense without the game forcing you to take Shield Defense ranks right up there with Assault Rifle Melee (you know, that rifle set where you can't actually fire the rifle).
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Originally Posted by Anaxagoras
When the shield is being used offensively it is not being used to protect you.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
One alternative would be a set of alternate animations for an existing set, eg Martial Arts.
It wouldnt even need to be every animation, just say extra options for Thunder Kick, Storm Kick and Eagles Claw that use the left hand and shield. Powers like Dragon's Tail (which is kind of hard to re-imagine doing with a shield rather than your foot) just dont get the extra option.
These animations only appear when you have Sheild Defence as a secondary.
The next problem is then making sure these animations work with all types of shields, eg round ones and rectangular riot shields.
I guess the devs do have bigger fish to fry.
What would work nicely for a number of sets is to give Boxing in the Fighting pool an option of using your Brawl animation. This would give you shield bashing, kicking archers and gun butt-ing as part of a useful attack chain.
...once power pools get customisation of course.
I would love to see a shield offence, because it could be a very potent power. Don't belive me? Check the Deadliest Warrior match up between the Spartan and the Ninja. Weapon with the most kills? The Spartan's SHIELD.
Now I'm not asking for it right this very minute (duh) but it would be a great set to look into. Maybe give the set a toggle that improves all defence by a small amount '5-10% maybe, just tossing out numbers) for the 'defence' the shield offers, balanced with a slightly higher endurance cost than the usual set. A shield throw ability would cause a debuff matching the toggle's defence boost, with another 1 or 2% taken off as well. One Arc, one PBAoe, one ranged, the rest plain single target.
Just my idea.
Never going to happen.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Dual archery? That's yesterday's news. The devs better hurry up and get on quad archery NOW!|
Originally Posted by Lightfoot
The quote, from the Devs, no less, went something along the lines of "We'll get right to work on Shield Offense as soon as we are done with Dual Archery Defense."
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Ah, faceless neg rep. We meet again. And what 'wasn't very long at all'? Hm, pity your owner will never come forward and explain.
Honestly, though, the Devs had said, specifically, this will not happen. As in, not just 'they dont have the tech' or, 'they dont have the time'. Pretty much, they would only do this when Hell Froze over and Jack Emmert was banished once and for all by the big Banhammer in the sky.
e.g. Never.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Contextually, it goes along with "tl;dr" which is generally accepted to mean "too long; didn't read." Ergo, "it wasn't very long at all." But mostly, that facepalm pic is one of the worst I've seen. And by all means, feed my red in retaliation if you like. My sig will thank you for it. I strangely find myself fighting a losing battle against the green and associated positive commentary.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Ah, faceless neg rep. We meet again. And what 'wasn't very long at all'? Hm, pity your owner will never come forward and explain.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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I like this one, personally:|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
mostly, that facepalm pic is one of the worst I've seen.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Ahhh. I thought tl;dr was similar to QR. So, I blame ignorance on that one. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Contextually, it goes along with "tl;dr" which is generally accepted to mean "too long; didn't read." Ergo, "it wasn't very long at all." But mostly, that facepalm pic is one of the worst I've seen. And by all means, feed my red in retaliation if you like. My sig will thank you for it. I strangely find myself fighting a losing battle against the green and associated positive commentary.
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Besides, I don't really care if people like/dislike the pic (it seems to get equal ammounts, actually
) it's more that 1) I like it and 2) Its appropriate given my avatar.Now, if they gave us a /e facepalm emote, I'd use a screenshot of that instead.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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'Shield Offense' reminds me of how dull the shield attack tree was in Dragon Age: Origins. (The rest of that game was dull as well, but that's off-topic.)
1) Hit enemy with shield once for low damage.
2) Hit enemy with shield twice for medium damage.
3) Hit enemy with shield three times for high damage.
4) Hit enemy with shield four times for very high damage.
That's what the shield offense tree was like in DA:O. This would pretty much be what a shield offense set would be like in CoX, too - boring. And then there's the whole aforementioned issues with a shield toss ability leaving you without a shield, and shield offense being stupid by concept whenever not paired with shield defense. Granted, they could just give it a Parry-style attack that deals light damage and buffs melee/lethal defense for a while if it hits, but... Yeah.
The explanation of Shield Offense being patently stupid makes sense to me.
Especially when you think of combinations like SO/Invuln.....you bash them with your shield and then just.....let them hit you back?
Or Shield Offense/Fiery Aura? You use a shield to attack and ignore it when it comes time to defend yourself....instead relying on the worst mitigation set in the game?
And as far as locking you into Shield Defense as your secondary....um sure. How about we lock all thematic pairings as the ONLY option when you choose a primary? Fire has to be paired with Fire, Ice with Ice, and so on.
See how it gets kind of silly? If I were the devs I wouldn't allow it either.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Or... "I'm a Shield/Shield tanker! See, on my left arm I have a shield I use to defend myself. I carry a shield used to attack with on my right arm. I... don't have any idea how I manage to put my offensive shield away when not using it. That takes two hands to sling one across one's back or retrieve it."|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The explanation of Shield Offense being patently stupid makes sense to me.
Especially when you think of combinations like SO/Invuln.....you bash them with your shield and then just.....let them hit you back? Or Shield Offense/Fiery Aura? You use a shield to attack and ignore it when it comes time to defend yourself....instead relying on the worst mitigation set in the game? And as far as locking you into Shield Defense as your secondary....um sure. How about we lock all thematic pairings as the ONLY option when you choose a primary? Fire has to be paired with Fire, Ice with Ice, and so on. See how it gets kind of silly? If I were the devs I wouldn't allow it either. |
Now, there is one shield I could see with shield offense. That's the lantern shield. Which was a buckler style shield with the following offensive attachments:
1. spike in the center of the shield
2. attached gauntlet which contains two sererated spikes for disarming one's foe
3. attached sword blade which extends to short sword length in the front, with the back extending to the elbow to protect your arm
4. attachments to mount a lantern (used to try dazzling your opponant, effectivness is questionable)
Now, attacks for this shield set I could see are Shield Rush (short distance charge+damage), Shield Bash (gives a def debuff to self for about 5 seconds), Stab (gives a def debuff to self for 5 seconds), Slice (again, def debuff to self for 5 seconds), and Disarm (damage debuff on foe, 5 second def debuff to self since your shield is again out of position)... Of course it would only really work if you made it a highly offensive defense set. The rest of the set would be defensive powers. The tier 9 could be "With your shield or on it", giving you moderate defense and resistance buffs and a slight recharge buff as you fight with more desperation. They were typically used for duals in France during the 16th century, and dualists using them would be armed with long swords.
But devs wont do that.
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I like the idea of Shield Defense unlocking alternate animations for the melee set, which to me sounds the more likely alternative to an entire powerset which isn't going to happen. Storm Kick/Jab getting Brawl's shield bash animation, Foot Stomp could have a short jump into the air then ground slam with the shield, Eagle's Claw a big epic slow-mo jump into the air, turning 360 before hitting the enemy with the flat of your shield.
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If we don't get Shield Offence this would be a perfect alternitive.|
Originally Posted by CBeet
I like the idea of Shield Defense unlocking alternate animations for the melee set, which to me sounds the more likely alternative to an entire powerset which isn't going to happen. Storm Kick/Jab getting Brawl's shield bash animation, Foot Stomp could have a short jump into the air then ground slam with the shield, Eagle's Claw a big epic slow-mo jump into the air, turning 360 before hitting the enemy with the flat of your shield.
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But the fact is at the end of the day you have a big heavy peice of metal (Wood/Bone/Tech/Whatever) on your arm, you may as well hit people with it.
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No, the fact is at the end of the day, that big heavy piece of whatever is there to protect you.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
But the fact is at the end of the day you have a big heavy peice of metal (Wood/Bone/Tech/Whatever) on your arm, you may as well hit people with it.
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And you already can hit people with it. The shield defense powerset comes with shield charge.
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The fact is that at the end of the day, sure you got a big heavy piece of metal/wood/bone/tech/whatever on your arm, and sure you can hit people with it... but it's still big and heavy. Let's say you have a bronze age style shield. It's big, almost as big as you. It's heavy, probably as heavy as you. And your carrying it into battle.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
If we don't get Shield Offence this would be a perfect alternitive.
But the fact is at the end of the day you have a big heavy peice of metal (Wood/Bone/Tech/Whatever) on your arm, you may as well hit people with it. |
Yeah, there's a reason why so many Heroic Age stories involve the main proagonist and the main villain standing there taunting each other on the battle field. It was a contest of wills and endurance as much as a fight. Who ever got tired first lowered their big, heavy, cumbersome shield. And they thus created an opening.
Then we move into the time of the roman legions. Those shields were big, heavy, and not suited for swinging as a blunt object. European shields are smaller and lighter, but there's only so many ways you can bash someone with a shield and still defend yourself. Zulu shields are light too, and big. But they aren't suitable for bashing someone with. Although sometimes they did put blades on the ends.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Make a Shield/SS or SS/Shield. Use some of the alternate animations. You hit the guy with the shield arm in many of them.
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I tend to think of Energy Torrent as my 'Energy' Shield Throw and leave it at that. As I'm pretty sure we'll never get to see a Shield Offense power set. I wouldn't mind a Shield's power pool however. It could have a Shield Bash attack, a Defense toggle or some type, then perhaps the much wanted Shield Throw in there as well. Throw in a fourth power and you got a power pool.
Of course I personally would love to see more power pools. Another version I would like to see implemented is laser eyes (Optic blasts, heat ray vision, whatever you want to call it). One would be a snipe type attack, another a wide beam with a knock back etc.
A third set I also thought would be fun was a Technology type power pool. Name needs some work. One of the 3rd-4th powers could be a Jetpack, or Glider. Some type of travel power for those none super powered folks out there. Of course with Jetpacks now being able to be bought, as well as looted as temp power recipes. There is not much need for that. Ninja Run + Hurdle pretty much took care of that too.
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Shield offense you'd be THROWING your shield, and not have it there to defend you.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Give the "Shield Offense" set a defensive buff power and voila, regardless of whether you have Shield Defense having a Shield potentialy gives you extra defensive capability. This also complements the fact that Shield Defense has an offensive power rather nicely.
So that's why you lose all of its defensive bonuses when you use Shield Charge... |
Shield Charge, you still have the shield ON YOU.
Come on now. Really.
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Will we ever get an offensive powerset for the shield? I have to use Brawl to see my SD brute smack people with the shield. I'd love to see several shield based attacks since it's already being lugged around by SD toons. Plus: how awesome would it be to have Shield Throw for ranged attaks?
@Joshua.