Shield Offense
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-05-11 20:29 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
This is basically why you didn't see many people going around with a shield as their only "weapon". If you're going to take a big piece of metal and make a weapon out of it, you're going to a) sharpen it, b) mold it into a top heavy mass and conk someone with it, or c) shape it into a point and propel it into someone's body at high speed. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
The fact is that at the end of the day, sure you got a big heavy piece of metal/wood/bone/tech/whatever on your arm, and sure you can hit people with it... but it's still big and heavy. Let's say you have a bronze age style shield. It's big, almost as big as you. It's heavy, probably as heavy as you. And your carrying it into battle.
|
The whole, "shape a shield into a frisbee and throw it at people" gimmick is just that, a gimmick. Marvel Comics' gimmick. Although superheroes with shields are rare, most of them just use them as that, a shield. And even Captain America doesn't really use his shield for the majority of his attacks, he punches and kicks just like everyone else.
Since Shield Defense is a high offense set as it is, you could say that the offensive bonuses from Against All Odds are due to the fact that you've got a shield behind your punches and body slams. The animations aren't exactly there, but the engine can't really support a body slam anyway. Shield Charge is the closest the game could come.
Now I agree that throwing the shield is a little far fetched as using it for a weapon. But we all know who made that famous, hence why people would love the chance to be able to replicate that. However I do not agree that the shield could not suffice as a primary weapon. Essentially it's a darn good weapon, for offense and defense. The reasons for defense are obvious so I won't go into them. But offensive wise it has a number of uses. Besides straight up bashes, which could be more damaging than a actual punch. While not running the risk of breaking your hand or something else. It could be used as a slashing time weapon using the outer edge of the shield (which does not have to be filed down into a sharp edge..). The same principles apply for that as why Martial Artist use not just their hands, but why we have elbow strikes.
Quote:
No one is disputing that. What they're saying is "whoever uses a shield just for offense and not for defense is an idiot".|
Originally Posted by Andferne
Now I agree that throwing the shield is a little far fetched as using it for a weapon. But we all know who made that famous, hence why people would love the chance to be able to replicate that. However I do not agree that the shield could not suffice as a primary weapon. Essentially it's a darn good weapon, for offense and defense. The reasons for defense are obvious so I won't go into them. But offensive wise it has a number of uses. Besides straight up bashes, which could be more damaging than a actual punch. While not running the risk of breaking your hand or something else. It could be used as a slashing time weapon using the outer edge of the shield (which does not have to be filed down into a sharp edge..). The same principles apply for that as why Martial Artist use not just their hands, but why we have elbow strikes.
|
Hence...Shield/Shield is the only way it would work. But you'd have people crying "I want my Shield Offense/Fire Armor Scrapper" which we all know is stupid.
Shield Defense already has attacks built into it, so you can attack with the shield (Shield Charge) and I believe one of the brawl animations using a shield bash animation (been awhile since I used my MA/Shield scrapper).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Says who? If it was created, it'd almost certainly be a purely melee set. As I recall, BAB was complaining about an inability to make a projectile out of shields due to limitations of the game.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Shield offense you'd be THROWING your shield
|
Quote:
|
No one is disputing that. What they're saying is "whoever uses a shield just for offense and not for defense is an idiot". Hence...Shield/Shield is the only way it would work. But you'd have people crying "I want my Shield Offense/Fire Armor Scrapper" which we all know is stupid. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
It's still being used as a weapon, not a shield...or it has a +defense so minor that everytime I saw a Shield/Fire Armor fall in combat I'd have to say "This is why morons use the shield to block".|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Says who? If it was created, it'd almost certainly be a purely melee set. As I recall, BAB was complaining about an inability to make a projectile out of shields due to limitations of the game.
Build a minor defensive bonus into the offensive set and you have a Shield user who potentially doesn't primarily rely upon the shield for defense, yet still receives some minor defensive benefit from it. |
Mind you, I have the same issues with Trick Arrow. PULL OUT AN ARROW AND SHOOT THEM WITH IT! But, I don't want to to hurt them. You're setting them on FIRE!
Which would all be allieviated, if they'd just make an Archery Epic.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
With the animation changed a number of the MA attacks can be seen hitting with the 'shield' arm, along with Brawl like you mentioned. The same can be said for a number of attacks from Energy Melee, Electricity Melee, Dark Melee, and Super Strength. So visual wise you can be attacking with your shield, though name sake wise it's not the same. So I understand why some people would complain or want actual shield attacks. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Shield Defense already has attacks built into it, so you can attack with the shield (Shield Charge) and I believe one of the brawl animations using a shield bash animation (been awhile since I used my MA/Shield scrapper).
|
Either way I'd like to see more Power sets. It be primary and secondary, or give us some more power pools. I know going Rogue is giving us some, but this game has been out long enough where we should have a Lot more customization to pick through. imo
Quote:
The two are not mutually exclusive. Shields have performed both tasks for time immemorial.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
It's still being used as a weapon, not a shield...
|
Quote:
| or it has a +defense so minor that everytime I saw a Shield/Fire Armor fall in combat I'd have to say "This is why morons use the shield to block". |
The Defense bonus could be fairly significant. As I recall, Katana and Broadsword both have significant defense components. I'd possibly put a very minor (perhaps less than 1%, but stackable) +Defense in the attacks, and perhaps give the set a toggle that's sort of a counterpart to Against All Odds, granting a +Def of, say, around 7% to 10% with a damage penalty exactly counter to AAO's damage bonus for enemies in range. Thus Shield Defense is geared somewhat towards offense, and a Shield Offense set could be geared somewhat towards defense providing a bit of delightful symmetry.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
No, morons use the shield to just attack. Smart people actually block incoming attacks with it. Smarter people use the shield to DEFLECT attacks and to occasionally bash someone in the face.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
The two are not mutually exclusive. Shields have performed both tasks for time immemorial.
That's right. Morons use the shield to block. Smart people use it to hit. |
My dad use to enter SCA tournaments. he's shown me some home movies of them, and you'd be surprised how many people just block with a shield. You might also be surprised by how many people would get disqualified because they break their arm via blocking instead of using the shield to deflect. And how few people think to use the shield offensively.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
This sounds like an awesome alternative. Thanks.|
Originally Posted by CBeet
I like the idea of Shield Defense unlocking alternate animations for the melee set, which to me sounds the more likely alternative to an entire powerset which isn't going to happen. Storm Kick/Jab getting Brawl's shield bash animation, Foot Stomp could have a short jump into the air then ground slam with the shield, Eagle's Claw a big epic slow-mo jump into the air, turning 360 before hitting the enemy with the flat of your shield.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
If we don't get Shield Offence this would be a perfect alternitive.
But the fact is at the end of the day you have a big heavy peice of metal (Wood/Bone/Tech/Whatever) on your arm, you may as well hit people with it. |
@Joshua.
Quote:
Absolutely. There should be some defense there, but it need not necessarily be the prime defense. Especially in a world of superhumans. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No, morons use the shield to just attack.
|
I was merely ribbing BrandX for taking the stance that the shield should be the primary defense, then saying "This is why morons use the shield to block," indicating that blocking with shields is a moronic activity. Contextually, the intended phrasing was probably "This is why you use the shield to block, morons."
Quote:
| My dad use to enter SCA tournaments. he's shown me some home movies of them, and you'd be surprised how many people just block with a shield. You might also be surprised by how many people would get disqualified because they break their arm via blocking instead of using the shield to deflect. And how few people think to use the shield offensively. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Well, there aren't many superheroes at those SCA tournaments. Trust me on that. A shield-user like Cap would throw his shield once and scatter them like bowling pins. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No, morons use the shield to just attack. Smart people actually block incoming attacks with it. Smarter people use the shield to DEFLECT attacks and to occasionally bash someone in the face.
My dad use to enter SCA tournaments. he's shown me some home movies of them, and you'd be surprised how many people just block with a shield. You might also be surprised by how many people would get disqualified because they break their arm via blocking instead of using the shield to deflect. And how few people think to use the shield offensively. |
I think the reason that they don't make a shield offense set is because a shield throw power would be:
a) a ranged attack in a melee set
and
b) hard to implement in combination with shield defense (SO/SD)
And there's really not much point making a shield offense set if it's not gonna have a shield throw.
Quote:
Lightning Rod (60ft), Breath of Fire (15ft), Fault (20ft), Hurl [Boulder] (80ft), Knockout Blow (13ft), Focus (40ft), Shockwave (30ft), Impale (40ft), Throw Spines (30ft)...
|
Originally Posted by ForumSniper
I think the reason that they don't make a shield offense set is because a shield throw power would be:
a) a ranged attack in a melee set |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
There's similarly no point in making a Broadword set if you can't shoot ranged beams from the sword when you're at full health.
|
Originally Posted by ForumSniper
And there's really not much point making a shield offense set if it's not gonna have a shield throw.
|
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
True, although some of those are PBAoEs and cones. And your counting Knockout Blow???
|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Lightning Rod (60ft), Breath of Fire (15ft), Fault (20ft), Hurl [Boulder] (80ft), Knockout Blow (13ft), Focus (40ft), Shockwave (30ft), Impale (40ft), Throw Spines (30ft)...
|
Quote:
There's a difference. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
There's similarly no point in making a Broadword set if you can't shoot ranged beams from the sword when you're at full health.
|
This is a superhero game based on comics. In comics, superheroes throw their shields. It's kind of iconic.
Yours is just random and absurd.
It's a video game, putting in sword beams is more valid than throwing sheilds
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
There's nothing random about Zelda, and it's not my fault you're unfamiliar with Marvel's Swordsman, etc, but I could also say:
"There's similarly no point in making a War Mace set if you can't hurl it (or, given the hammer now, shoot lightning bolts with it)."
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Oh really? Captain America uses a shield and throws it. However Guardian (DC comics) doesn't throw his shield. Nor does Shining Knight (DC Comics). Spiderman's formed shields using his webbing (after first teaming with Cap), but never threw them. So far that's 3 comic characters with shields I can think of who don't throw them, one who does.
|
Originally Posted by ForumSniper
There's a difference.
This is a superhero game based on comics. In comics, superheroes throw their shields. It's kind of iconic. Yours is just random and absurd. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
Captain America rarely throws his shield. Usually only when he needs to drops someone NOW, and they are out of reach. He prefers to have his shield on him when people are shooting at him....because he isn't bulletproof. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Oh really? Captain America uses a shield and throws it. However Guardian (DC comics) doesn't throw his shield. Nor does Shining Knight (DC Comics). Spiderman's formed shields using his webbing (after first teaming with Cap), but never threw them. So far that's 3 comic characters with shields I can think of who don't throw them, one who does.
|
He does hit people with it quite frequently though. I mean, it's attached to his arm, why not smack 'em with it?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
It's also interesting to note that Cap DID throw his original shield, but even less often. His original shield wasn't round, and he wasn't able to bounce it off things so it'd return to him. It was more of a kite shield design.
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Captain America rarely throws his shield. Usually only when he needs to drops someone NOW, and they are out of reach. He prefers to have his shield on him when people are shooting at him....because he isn't bulletproof.
He does hit people with it quite frequently though. I mean, it's attached to his arm, why not smack 'em with it? |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
I know that there are others, but Hurl from Superstrength is what immediatly comes to mind as a ranged attack for tanks and brutes.
|
Originally Posted by ForumSniper
I think the reason that they don't make a shield offense set is because a shield throw power would be:
a) a ranged attack in a melee set and b) hard to implement in combination with shield defense (SO/SD) And there's really not much point making a shield offense set if it's not gonna have a shield throw. |
@Joshua.
Quote:
It's not just the ranged attack aspect of it. Several melee sets have ranged attacks in them. |
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I know that there are others, but Hurl from Superstrength is what immediatly comes to mind as a ranged attack for tanks and brutes.
|
I think it has to do more with the fact that you're throwing the same object that is attached to your character.
They had to do Shield Charge the way they did because of animation and character model limitations. I can imagine it would be a nightmare to try and make an attack where you throw part of your character model, especially since that part is directly connected to your defense toggles.
Most people forget that they modified every animation in every powerset usable with shields to account for the shield's presence. It actually creates an entirely different combat stance. Energy Punch with a shield is NOT the same animation as Energy Punch without it. It is similar, but it brings up an entirely different file directory. It's the same reason using a heal, or a Fighting Pool power causes redraw. Because those powers are not part of that combat stance.
Throwing your shield would effectively cause you to bounce between two different combat stances within the same powerset, which I don't think they can do.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
They did it in those Marvel vs. Capcom games. Cap threw his shield. So there!
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's not just the ranged attack aspect of it. Several melee sets have ranged attacks in them.
I think it has to do more with the fact that you're throwing the same object that is attached to your character. They had to do Shield Charge the way they did because of animation and character model limitations. I can imagine it would be a nightmare to try and make an attack where you throw part of your character model, especially since that part is directly connected to your defense toggles. Most people forget that they modified every animation in every powerset usable with shields to account for the shield's presence. It actually creates an entirely different combat stance. Energy Punch with a shield is NOT the same animation as Energy Punch without it. It is similar, but it brings up an entirely different file directory. It's the same reason using a heal, or a Fighting Pool power causes redraw. Because those powers are not part of that combat stance. Throwing your shield would effectively cause you to bounce between two different combat stances within the same powerset, which I don't think they can do. |
@Joshua.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU