I had the same problem on my DS/Pain build when I did not socket End Reductions. I currently have 2 Dam, 2 Health and 2 EndRed socketed and currently have no problems. I picked up a level 35 End Reduction IO so I thought I'd resocket another Dam IO in the place of one of my End Reducers and see what happens.
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My 2nd tier pets only have one SO end redux, and the Ember Demon's endurance problem is fine. Even when moving from spawn to spawn, his endurance doesn't go down to half. The only time where his endurance is dropping is when I'm fighting enemies that can drain endurance.|
Originally Posted by NeoSporin
I have two Endurance Reducer SOs currently slotted into my 2nd tier demons, and my Ember Demon still bottoms out of end with every battle. This can't be right. My Hellfire Gargoyle does fine with Endurance, just the Ember that burns through his.
Anyone else notice this? |
I think you must be doing something wrong.
You fighting Carnies?
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Putting end redux in this power merely reduces the original summoning cost. Not seeing any difference in pet end consumption. It and Frost Prince are still going through all endurance in less than 5 enemies at a time.
Furthermore, how can you "do something wrong" with a MM that would affect pet end consumption? The problem is simple, the fix is as simple; Lower the spell end costs of the Ember Demon and Demon Princes spells. Very easy.
While your at it, though. Please put pets that don't have melee attacks back on some kind of ranged AI or maybe even give WE PLAYERS a check mark to decide Ranged, Melee, or Both for each pet type, Minion, LT, and Boss. THAT would really help a ton!
on average most tier 3 pets have end issues with both upgrades, after slotting 1 end reducer into summon demons and demon prince, they still have end issues in long fights but overall they dont burn through it as bad.
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Putting end redux in the power DOES lowers the end cost of the pets powers as well. It's been proven time and time again. The Ember demon and Prince are fairly end intensive, but I after frankenslotting for end redux the 2nd tiers were better though not great, and the Demon Prince was fine. This is the price they pay for being so good. The pets are tough, have good ST and AoE dmg and heals....... I'm fine with them being end intensive.
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Originally Posted by Price_NA
Putting end redux in this power merely reduces the original summoning cost. Not seeing any difference in pet end consumption. It and Frost Prince are still going through all endurance in less than 5 enemies at a time.
Furthermore, how can you "do something wrong" with a MM that would affect pet end consumption? The problem is simple, the fix is as simple; Lower the spell end costs of the Ember Demon and Demon Princes spells. Very easy. While your at it, though. Please put pets that don't have melee attacks back on some kind of ranged AI or maybe even give WE PLAYERS a check mark to decide Ranged, Melee, or Both for each pet type, Minion, LT, and Boss. THAT would really help a ton! |
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
What secondary do you have? I'm assuming your Ember Demon may be spending all his endurance on healing because you the Mastermind don't. Or it may be the other way round, you heal so well that he's spending most of his endurance on costly attacks. COuld this be a reason?
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the ember demon does spend a lot of end on healing, if you notice it spams the AoE heal whenever its up and uses single target heal on the every pet thats below about 60% hp|
Originally Posted by MonkeySpirit
What secondary do you have? I'm assuming your Ember Demon may be spending all his endurance on healing because you the Mastermind don't. Or it may be the other way round, you heal so well that he's spending most of his endurance on costly attacks. COuld this be a reason?
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and the reason its more noticeable in fights is because the ember demon is attacking AND spamming heals
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Then it's possible that Ember Demons whose masters use Poison, Storm and Trick Arrow just have more endurance problems than others, right?
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
the ember demon does spend a lot of end on healing, if you notice it spams the AoE heal whenever its up and uses single target heal on the every pet thats below about 60% hp
and the reason its more noticeable in fights is because the ember demon is attacking AND spamming heals |
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I have not had any pet end issues on my Demon/Storm, but I do not have the lvl 32 upgrade yet, so maybe once the AoE heal comes into play?|
Originally Posted by MonkeySpirit
Then it's possible that Ember Demons whose masters use Poison, Storm and Trick Arrow just have more endurance problems than others, right?
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Hurricane and Freezing Rain mitigate a ton of damage for me though, so I do not believe I will often see the AoE heal being spammed normally.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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No, end redux in a summon power reduces the cost of summoning, AND it reduces the endurance costs of the summon's attacks. Some enemies though can (and do) drain endurance. Carnies do an end drain aoe when their defeated for example. Electric blasting enemies can drain endurance with every hit. Malta sappers drain an entire end bar in one or two hits.
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Originally Posted by Price_NA
Putting end redux in this power merely reduces the original summoning cost. Not seeing any difference in pet end consumption. It and Frost Prince are still going through all endurance in less than 5 enemies at a time.
Furthermore, how can you "do something wrong" with a MM that would affect pet end consumption? The problem is simple, the fix is as simple; Lower the spell end costs of the Ember Demon and Demon Princes spells. Very easy. While your at it, though. Please put pets that don't have melee attacks back on some kind of ranged AI or maybe even give WE PLAYERS a check mark to decide Ranged, Melee, or Both for each pet type, Minion, LT, and Boss. THAT would really help a ton! |
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I have been meaning to come back to this for awhile now.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I have not had any pet end issues on my Demon/Storm, but I do not have the lvl 32 upgrade yet, so maybe once the AoE heal comes into play?
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After I got my level 32 upgrade, the Ember started using more end, but I have found it to still be manageable. I do have 58.6% end reduction slotted in Summon Demons.
The Prince, OTOH, has serious issues. I have 60.7% end reduction slotted in Summon Demon Prince, which seems to me to be a generous amount. However, he still seems to run low quite frequently and I find myself feeding him blues. This experience is not fighting any mobs that have special end drain. Mostly lvl 30s CoT, Longbow, Rikti, Wailers, Nemesis, and Council. I have fought Carnies, but I expect to have occasional issues (although O2 Boost is likely helping me some (I wish it had a longer duration)).
Is anyone else experiencing this with the Prince?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The 32 upgrade is what causes their end to bottom out. 1-31, my Demons were fine on end. Then after 32, my Prince's end just bottomed out. So far I got 2 end reduxs in him right now, but Im gonna try and up that with frankenslotting, because in long fights he still bottoms out occasionally. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I have not had any pet end issues on my Demon/Storm, but I do not have the lvl 32 upgrade yet, so maybe once the AoE heal comes into play?
Hurricane and Freezing Rain mitigate a ton of damage for me though, so I do not believe I will often see the AoE heal being spammed normally. |
Ember oddly enough, I still don't see bottom out on end.
::edit:: Just saw your second post. Needless to say, my results pretty much mirror yours.
Just some random thoughts of mine: Players often state that ninjas are hard to control, zombies are too squishy, robots don't do enough damage, arsonists are suicidal, mercs can't do anything right, and now the demons are end hogs. I think it is by design perhaps that certain facets of each mastermind group have 'limitations'. Even some masterminds have worked some procs into mercs to make them more damaging. Feeding my demon prince blues is a small price for my mastermind to pay since I love what he does so much.
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HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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It is possible that the Prince was designed to need some blues even with 60% end reduction slotting. My interest is to make sure others have the same limitation and it is not just me doing something wrong.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
I think it is by design perhaps that certain facets of each mastermind group have 'limitations'. Even some masterminds have worked some procs into mercs to make them more damaging. Feeding my demon prince blues is a small price for my mastermind to pay since I love what he does so much.
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So far it would seem that after level 32, the Prince has end issues. Slotting does not appear to make those issues go away and I have to make sure I am aware and keep some blues in my tray.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I assure you my Demon Prince has ~60 end reduction slotting and he still is pressed to have enough endurance to keep steamrolling|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is possible that the Prince was designed to need some blues even with 60% end reduction slotting. My interest is to make sure others have the same limitation and it is not just me doing something wrong.
So far it would seem that after level 32, the Prince has end issues. Slotting does not appear to make those issues go away and I have to make sure I am aware and keep some blues in my tray. |
Quoting ME...
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Also, I would start looking at sets especially the Demon Prince as early as levels 27 and 29. This might sound heretical but I slot my Demon Prince with economical sets (not Hami's or purples yet) as so: Edict of the master Acc/Dmg; Dmg IO; Pacing of the Turtle Acc/slow, Dmg/slow, Acc/End, End/Recharge. Results: 75.5% damage 62.8% slow 62.8% acc 59.6% end cost redux 18.4% recharge reduction (nearly worthless) set bonuses: 2.75% addnl sleep resistance Improves slow powers by 2.5% Improves accuracy of all powers 9% |
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Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Thank you for the replies. With two other people having the exact same experiences with similar slotting, I feel comfortable that I will just move forward and make dropping blues on the Prince part of my routine (which is what I have already done, but now I feel better that I am doing the right thing and not missing out on an easier way).
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Originally Posted by Psylenz
I assure you my Demon Prince has ~60 end reduction slotting and he still is pressed to have enough endurance to keep steamrolling.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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if your ember demon is spending a lot of its endurance on healing, one out of the box way to try to fix this is to slot a heal enhancer in his power. believe this forces him to heal less often but for more HP when he does heal. as I understand it, when he heals is based on how much he heals. |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
the ember demon does spend a lot of end on healing, if you notice it spams the AoE heal whenever its up and uses single target heal on the every pet thats below about 60% hp
and the reason its more noticeable in fights is because the ember demon is attacking AND spamming heals |
made up numbers, but if his unslotted heal is set to heal 30% of base HPs, then he will cast it when anyone hits that level. slotting a heal enhancer in there, raising the heal % to say 40%, would make him wait until someone reached that level of damage before throwing out the heal.
the draw back is that it's kind of a wasted slot in that only 1 of the tier 2 pets has the heal. I generally try to slot enhancers that will help all pets in a tier. but if you are close to maxing out endurance reduction under ED, and have a slot to spare, it might be 1 way to help control his endurance use.
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The real problem here might be the fact that pets inherit enhancements from set IO's in a strange manner - if a pet power wouldn't accept the set IO then it won't inherit the enhancments from it. While it is obvious that this would apply to things like heal or hold set IO's in a pet, it is not as obvious how it applies to pet damage sets, which you would expect to effect all pet powers. I am fairly sure the real numbers in the pet descriptions for powers don't accurately reflect how enhancements are inherited either. |
Originally Posted by kendo
if your ember demon is spending a lot of its endurance on healing, one out of the box way to try to fix this is to slot a heal enhancer in his power. believe this forces him to heal less often but for more HP when he does heal. as I understand it, when he heals is based on how much he heals.
made up numbers, but if his unslotted heal is set to heal 30% of base HPs, then he will cast it when anyone hits that level. slotting a heal enhancer in there, raising the heal % to say 40%, would make him wait until someone reached that level of damage before throwing out the heal. the draw back is that it's kind of a wasted slot in that only 1 of the tier 2 pets has the heal. I generally try to slot enhancers that will help all pets in a tier. but if you are close to maxing out endurance reduction under ED, and have a slot to spare, it might be 1 way to help control his endurance use. |
So, if you are slotting pet damage IO's that include end reduction the ember demon heals and many of the demon prince attacks (shiver, his slow aura, his hold) will not be affected by the end red in those enhancements (or the accuracy) because they are not damaging attack powers. Obviously, since some folks have pointed out that they are actually slotting plain end-red enhancments this is not the cause of all the pet end problems, but it might be causing some of them.
As for slotting heals in the ember demon - I am not sure that this will help the end issue. I would think it unlikely that the ember demon's AI is going to adjust it's heal rate based on the current amount it is healing - mostly because this would take a lot of calculation cycles, constantly comparing the value of thier heal against the damage taken by other pets. I suspect that the heals are simply triggered once one or more pets have taken a certain % of their health in damage and that % does not change.
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Wait...you mean...|
Originally Posted by EricHough
So, if you are slotting pet damage IO's that include end reduction the ember demon heals and many of the demon prince attacks (shiver, his slow aura, his hold) will not be affected by the end red in those enhancements (or the accuracy) because they are not damaging attack powers. Obviously, since some folks have pointed out that they are actually slotting plain end-red enhancments this is not the cause of all the pet end problems, but it might be causing some of them.
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Well... fudge. Back to the drawing board on my Demon Summoner. I was really counting on the pet sets to keep the endurance issues under control... but if these sets don't actually DO that for the Prince or the Ember Demon, I need to rework things.
Are we sure this is WAI? Seems like this might be an oversight in the set...
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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I will see if I can find some of the discussions on this but pretty sure I saw where it did affect them this way. it was rather surprising to me as well, which is why it sticks in my mind.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
As for slotting heals in the ember demon - I am not sure that this will help the end issue. I would think it unlikely that the ember demon's AI is going to adjust it's heal rate based on the current amount it is healing - mostly because this would take a lot of calculation cycles, constantly comparing the value of thier heal against the damage taken by other pets. I suspect that the heals are simply triggered once one or more pets have taken a certain % of their health in damage and that % does not change. |
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No, actually that is exactly how they work, the AI doesn't 'waste' a heal. It only heals when the power will use up every point of healing without overhealing. This occurrence has always been how the protector bot heals, which is why people don't recommend slotting it for heals. This isn't a new thing.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
The real problem here might be the fact that pets inherit enhancements from set IO's in a strange manner - if a pet power wouldn't accept the set IO then it won't inherit the enhancments from it. While it is obvious that this would apply to things like heal or hold set IO's in a pet, it is not as obvious how it applies to pet damage sets, which you would expect to effect all pet powers. I am fairly sure the real numbers in the pet descriptions for powers don't accurately reflect how enhancements are inherited either.
So, if you are slotting pet damage IO's that include end reduction the ember demon heals and many of the demon prince attacks (shiver, his slow aura, his hold) will not be affected by the end red in those enhancements (or the accuracy) because they are not damaging attack powers. Obviously, since some folks have pointed out that they are actually slotting plain end-red enhancments this is not the cause of all the pet end problems, but it might be causing some of them. As for slotting heals in the ember demon - I am not sure that this will help the end issue. I would think it unlikely that the ember demon's AI is going to adjust it's heal rate based on the current amount it is healing - mostly because this would take a lot of calculation cycles, constantly comparing the value of thier heal against the damage taken by other pets. I suspect that the heals are simply triggered once one or more pets have taken a certain % of their health in damage and that % does not change. |
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What I hadn't stopped to realize is if I have Pet Damage IO enhancements with endurance reduction in them that the ember demon doesn't benefit on his PbAoE ember shield or heals. Cutting the endurance for the attacks is good, but it doesn't cover the full scope of his end usage, if that theory holds up.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
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HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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I have my heal slotted higher on my level 44 ember demon, but it did create problems exemping down tonight on the Sis Psyche Taskforce, below abyssal empowerment and the AoE heal. The reluctance to heal until his demon cousin was in the red was noticeable.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
No, actually that is exactly how they work, the AI doesn't 'waste' a heal. It only heals when the power will use up every point of healing without overhealing. This occurrence has always been how the protector bot heals, which is why people don't recommend slotting it for heals. This isn't a new thing.
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Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
I have two Endurance Reducer SOs currently slotted into my 2nd tier demons, and my Ember Demon still bottoms out of end with every battle. This can't be right. My Hellfire Gargoyle does fine with Endurance, just the Ember that burns through his.
Anyone else notice this?
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