(Villains only) How evil do YOU want to be, really?
By
Anti_Product,
Posted on: 2010-04-30 24:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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For some reason, variations on "beat up Westin Phipps" were some of the more common missions when the AE fiurst came out - and reading that, I totally have no idea why |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
To answer this question, no he's not mad at you. He's sad that he doesn't get to watch Arachnos break her mind, and he's put out that he can't put what's left of her on display as Haven House's "receptionist". However, he points out that her school in the Isles is ruined and 'that's what's important'.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes, some people do have bad taste, and that's why we shouldn't listen to them.| Because other people like things that you don't like? |
I'm reminded of a story I heard about Space:1999. If you could get past the doofy science the show had some good stories in its first season. That changed in the second and last season, when Fred Freiberger was brought in to run it. Freiberger was the producer of the third and last season of Star Trek, and the (IIRC) fifth and last season of The Six Million Dollar Man. (You may notice a pattern here.) The scripts went from zero to suck instantly. (It didn't help that every single story in the second season was an obvious haircut of a Trek episode.) Freiberger, as it turns out, was of the opinion that writing for television was supposed to be bad. The more 1999's actors complained about how stupid the scripts were the more intractable he became. At one point, it is said, he literally chased a writer out of his office screaming "WHY DO YOU BRING ME WHIPPED CREAM WHEN I ASKED FOR S**T!".
That's the same vibe I'm getting here and it's completely counterproductive. The world has an overabundance of bad writing; there's no need to deliberately set out to add to it. To borrow from Chandler, if the game can be as good as "O, Wretched Man!" or "The Hammer of the World", or even "only" as good as "Kurh'Rekt Revenge" or "Iron Widow", then it can be even better. Nor is it in any way, shape or form necessary to embrace bad writing for the sake of enjoyable gameplay; the above arcs play just as well as anything else in the game.
So why ask for...sewer muck...when you could have whipped cream? Why settle for Michael Bay when you could have Christopher Nolan, or at least James Cameron?
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Yes, it is. Camp is garbage, always, without question. Calling it "camp" is an acknowledgment of special pleading.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Those are good arcs, but those are not the arcs that are being referenced here.|
Originally Posted by Venture
To borrow from Chandler, if the game can be as good as "O, Wretched Man!" or "The Hammer of the World", or even "only" as good as "Kurh'Rekt Revenge" or "Iron Widow", then it can be even better. Nor is it in any way, shape or form necessary to embrace bad writing for the sake of enjoyable gameplay; the above arcs play just as well as anything else in the game.
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Camp does not necessarily mean bad writing. It can mean a lot of things, and in this case it means the clone army super laser volcano fortress villainy. Such things have been used even by the likes of Pixar.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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The only difference between Michael Bay and James Cameron is in the quality of their productions, not the vision thereof. Of course, if you're one of the high-brow blowhards hat dissect Avatar, trying to pinpoint exactly what other story each element is like, you'll just scoff at me, but most of Cameron's movies are built on camp value and simple ideas. Avatar is built on the simplistic coolness of giant blue aliens and "humans are bad," Aliens is so firmly rooted in the simple coolness of marines vs. xenomorphs that it's spawned its own genre and Terminator 2 is basically a souped-up version of the original Terminator sold as an action movie where the original was more a slasher flick.|
Originally Posted by Venture
So why ask for...sewer muck...when you could have whipped cream? Why settle for Michael Bay when you could have Christopher Nolan, or at least James Cameron?
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We're not asking for bad writing, and to suggest we are is completely missing the point of the entire discussion, which is surprising, coming from you. We're not asking for bad writing. We're merely asking for writing which is less deeply rooted in depressing drama and more set to revolve around the inherent coolness that is the very thing which brought many of us to comic books.
Show of hands: How many people got into comic books because they thought comic book stories were deep, involving masterworks of high literature? And how many got into them because people who can fly and use super strength is just cool? Call me a simpleton if you will, but I don't want to lose the inherent coolness of "just super powers" in the eternal quest to make myself look smarter by pretending my tastes are "deep." I'm perfectly happy to subsist on "shallow" entertainment as long as it's done well.
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Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, it is. Camp is garbage, always, without question. Calling it "camp" is an acknowledgment of special pleading.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Damnit, now I have a craving for whipped cream on a bowell movement. thanks a lot Venture!
Paragon Unleashed, Unleash Yourself!
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Comic books are camp - that doesn't make them bad.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, it is. Camp is garbage, always, without question. Calling it "camp" is an acknowledgment of special pleading.
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The whole Superman myhtology is very camp, but he's still a wordlwide icon of heroism.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Even if camp is bad, it should be an option in this game for those who like it.
In almost any world that has enough stories, within a given range it should embrace the gamut of tastes and genres. In the City of... universe, there should be horror stories, action stories, high fantasy, mysteries...you get the drift.
And there is room also for the Batman from each of the decades, all the way from Frank Miller to Adam West.
That way, people who dislike a certain feel can avoid it, and those who prefer it can seek it out.
I have lots of alts, and they run the gamut, but if I had to pick one, I'd say that the Obadiah Stane from the Iron Man movies or Doctor Octopus from the Spider-Man movie, is very close to what I'd like to play on average, as opposed to Doctor Evil or the Joker.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Your avatar represents camp, my friend. He died because he was wearing a cape. |
Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, it is. Camp is garbage, always, without question. Calling it "camp" is an acknowledgment of special pleading.
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That is the very essence of camp.
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Actually, comic books could use more camp if you ask me. These days they're more about death, loss of limbs, substance abuse problems, and general "grittiness" (and unfortunately one of the nice "campy" books that has featured a white gorilla, disco space princesses and "pregno-rays" is getting a change in creative team).
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Comic books are camp - that doesn't make them bad.
The whole Superman myhtology is very camp, but he's still a wordlwide icon of heroism. |
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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My character:|
Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
While I am stopping that I am also helping myself to great heaping fistfuls of the wealth of ancient Rome.
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I specifically went back in time in order to introduce "Drakeisawesome" as a latin word. When language evolved, it would eventually warp to the point that many conversations would have an easter egg meaning of singing my praises.
Turns out I have absolutely no understanding of language and it kind of just became the word "Table". TOTALLLYYYYYY didn't work, but it'd be awesome if it did, right? High five? High five? Anyone? Bueller...
*shrug*
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I'm sure they'll be back on the title at some point, so I don't think we've seen the last of this:|
Originally Posted by gec72
Actually, comic books could use more camp if you ask me. These days they're more about death, loss of limbs, substance abuse problems, and general "grittiness" (and unfortunately one of the nice "campy" books that has featured a white gorilla, disco space princesses and "pregno-rays" is getting a change in creative team).
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
My Main villain Redcoat is repurposing a Sonic Doomsday device to override every audio system in the world... To play Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give you Up, not exactly to Rick Roll the world, but he just likes the song that much.
Compare this to my insane DP/Rad corruptor who is effectively Xemnas from Kingdom Hearts II in terms of goals (trying to make herself whole again) and has gone so far as to harvest the souls of other people to sell them to a demon who's agreed to help.
Which of these do you think is more evil?
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I'd much prefer to read a comic about this one, though.
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Originally Posted by Blood Spectre
The Rick Roll guy. No contest.
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It's either that, or being happy that the (donated) food he had you poison blinded some orphans.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
For some reason, variations on "beat up Westin Phipps" were some of the more common missions when the AE fiurst came out - and reading that, I totally have no idea why
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The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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I wouldn't watch any Freidberger shows, no, but I would (and do) watch Dr. Who or the old Batman TV show - big diff there.|
Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, some people do have bad taste, and that's why we shouldn't listen to them.
I'm reminded of a story I heard about Space:1999. If you could get past the doofy science the show had some good stories in its first season. That changed in the second and last season, when Fred Freiberger was brought in to run it. Freiberger was the producer of the third and last season of Star Trek, and the (IIRC) fifth and last season of The Six Million Dollar Man. (You may notice a pattern here.) The scripts went from zero to suck instantly. (It didn't help that every single story in the second season was an obvious haircut of a Trek episode.) Freiberger, as it turns out, was of the opinion that writing for television was supposed to be bad. The more 1999's actors complained about how stupid the scripts were the more intractable he became. At one point, it is said, he literally chased a writer out of his office screaming "WHY DO YOU BRING ME WHIPPED CREAM WHEN I ASKED FOR S**T!". That's the same vibe I'm getting here and it's completely counterproductive. The world has an overabundance of bad writing; there's no need to deliberately set out to add to it. To borrow from Chandler, if the game can be as good as "O, Wretched Man!" or "The Hammer of the World", or even "only" as good as "Kurh'Rekt Revenge" or "Iron Widow", then it can be even better. Nor is it in any way, shape or form necessary to embrace bad writing for the sake of enjoyable gameplay; the above arcs play just as well as anything else in the game. So why ask for...sewer muck...when you could have whipped cream? Why settle for Michael Bay when you could have Christopher Nolan, or at least James Cameron? |
So I look up a definition of "camp" and found this, which sounds pretty good to my understanding of the word in this context (I do not quote it as holy writ but as a rough guide to the meaning of the word):
something that is considered amusing not because of its originality but because of its unoriginality
Nothing is said about 'bad' or 'good' writing; as usual, that's more about you applying your judgement as if it were fact. You're free to make that call, but don't expect everyone to agree with you or to think you even "maybe have a point."
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I have but one thing to say:|
Originally Posted by Venture
Yes, it is. Camp is garbage, always, without question. Calling it "camp" is an acknowledgment of special pleading.
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VIAL OF BEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!
That is all.
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Vernon is just classic. I mean, I HATE simplistic comedy, and I still love Vernon simply because he's written so well. Yeah, he's goofy, yeah, he's silly, but at the heart of the story is a decent message, the writing is good and, most importantly, he makes a point of showing respect for me.|
Originally Posted by Pendix
VIAL OF BEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!
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To be honest, I don't read comic books, but if Linkara is anything to go by, a whole lot of them take themselves far, FAR too seriously.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I see we cannot agree on a definition of "camp".
How's "flamboyant" work for you? "Stylized"? "Iconic"? "Outrageous"? I don't want to pretend to be an enforcer of a realistic dictatorship - I want to play a frickin' super villain, the kind that does not exist and could not exist outside of fiction. I believe it has been demonstrated that the game as it exists now is capable of supporting this paradigm to a much greater extent than it currently does, and I would like to see that trend continue in future content and in edits to existing content, if existing content is to be revisited at all. I really don't think I can make it much clearer than that.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
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Probably a bit of both.
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
It's either that, or being happy that the (donated) food he had you poison blinded some orphans.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The Rogue Isles isn't a realistic dictatorship |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I see we cannot agree on a definition of "camp".
How's "flamboyant" work for you? "Stylized"? "Iconic"? "Outrageous"? I don't want to pretend to be an enforcer of a realistic dictatorship - I want to play a frickin' super villain, the kind that does not exist and could not exist outside of fiction. I believe it has been demonstrated that the game as it exists now is capable of supporting this paradigm to a much greater extent than it currently does, and I would like to see that trend continue in future content and in edits to existing content, if existing content is to be revisited at all. I really don't think I can make it much clearer than that. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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He also had a volcano base with uniformed henchmen and booby traps, which is like JUST THE KIND OF THING WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Your avatar represents camp, my friend. He died because he was wearing a cape.
That is the very essence of camp. |
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Rogue Isles isn't a realistic dictatorship
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I want to play a frickin' super villain, the kind that does not exist and could not exist outside of fiction. How's "Flamboyant" work for you? "Stylized"? "Iconic"? "Outrageous"? "Camp?" I don't want to pretend to be an enforcer of a dictatorship - I believe it has been demonstrated that the game as it exists now is capable of supporting this paradigm to a much greater extent than it currently does, and I would like to see that trend continue in future content and in edits to existing content, if existing content is to be revisited at all. I really don't think I can make it much clearer than that.
Maybe it could have some things about villainy rather than vile, and support for the more archetypes - overlords, misguided anti-villains, anything but enforcers.
How could most of this subject be summarized into a sig?
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Nemesis is about the only supervillain that can match Recluse in the camping it up league
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork