Quote:
I don't think that you are quite grasping his/her point, the devs have always advocated the markets as an optional piece of the game, and whilst it is practically unavoidable, it can be outwith normal gameplay - to a degree. MegaJoule is attempting to explain why for some people 100m is quite reasonably a lot of finance in the game. I understand why other people say 100m is a lot, I remember my first few 50's only tracked 10-20+million, well before any possible influence sink. If I wanted to simply enjoy my character I can whole-heartedly say I'd happily avoid the market and as put by someone else: play the game, your mashing the point that the market is crucial to one's gameplay which is convoluting the concept of <100m finances. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Positron's Blast recipes are part of the optional invention system.
Or do you think you should be able to cherry pick the rewards of the optional system without any other engagement? If you don't like the optional system, stick to SOs- they still work fine. If you want the rewards of the optional system however, you'll probably need to USE it. |
Ironically if it was not for the market, and inventions obviously, I severely doubt that obscenely rich would escalate greater than 2billion proven that the only source would be farming.
Fury
Quote:
Oh no, the point is coming through loud and clear.|
Originally Posted by Wondering_Fury
I don't think that you are quite grasping his/her point.....
|
Quote:
| MegaJoule is attempting to explain why for some people 100m is quite reasonably a lot of finance in the game. |
100 million is wealth beyond the dreams of avarice for those content with SOs or generics, I agree. But that isn't the discussion.
Quote:
| I understand why other people say 100m is a lot, I remember my first few 50's only tracked 10-20+million, well before any possible influence sink. If I wanted to simply enjoy my character I can whole-heartedly say I'd happily avoid the market and as put by someone else: play the game, your mashing the point that the market is crucial to one's gameplay which is convoluting the concept of <100m finances. |
If you're happy with SOs or generic IOs you'll have more inf than you can ever spend quite early in your career just using it as a store to dump your drops in.
If however you aspire to the fruits of the optional invention system, i/e set IOs with attractive performance enhancing properties you may need to engage it on a deeper level, depending on how luxe your tastes are.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Normally, Nethergoat, I kind of agree with you. Maybe I'm not as extreme, maybe I can stand back and look reasonable because you're saying it ... but this time you're wrong.
Remoras just grab a free ride. They don't actually suck the blood of the critter they're riding on.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Curse you fulmens, you and your precious "marine biology"!!!11
/edit
it's times like this the anti-caps lock filter around her chafes my horns!
guess I'll just make it red...
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
What I meant to say is that it's good that the market is optional, or players who don't have hundreds of millions of inf to throw around would be completely screwed. It has become its own game, feeding back on itself, with increasingly little connection to what spawned it.
I think I shall stop trying to engage it, and you, and go back to playing the parts of the game that I can.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
... I've got a level 46 who hasn't "played" the market with something like 400 million. Are we going to need to do a version of the 1-10 challenge that goes 1-40? Sell everything at wents for 1, do 50/50 solo/teamed, see what you get, something like that?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
Are you seriously saying that a quick university walk is worth more than 8mil?
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
there is a time investment in creating IOs, and some players value their time much more highly than their pyramidal stacks of play money.
|
Apparently "bidding twice" is worth more than 8 mil to some people. The first time I had an item that I listed at [I don't remember exact numbers, but they were in this ballpark] 26 million sell, THE NEXT DAY, for 43 million... I realized that some people don't care what they pay.
Not to tell other people's stories and screw them up, but I believe PumBumbler made his billions by doing stuff that he woulda done for free. He's hardly the only one.
If you want to talk the economics of the game I will talk that all day. If you want to just sit there and act shocked, I have a little less tolerance.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
If it's your point that the "game, as it is meant to be played"(tm) is just about SOs, you're failing to realize that selling a single decent drop in a normal leveling-to-50 (really, leveling-to-20) career in the "optional" market will make you set for life in the SO universe. Things were never this easy to equip your toon w/DOs at 12/17, and fresh, green SOs at 22/27/32/37/42/47 (combined always at ++ strength!).|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
What I meant to say is that it's good that the market is optional, or players who don't have hundreds of millions of inf to throw around would be completely screwed. It has become its own game, feeding back on itself, with increasingly little connection to what spawned it.
I think I shall stop trying to engage it, and you, and go back to playing the parts of the game that I can. |
Even if you just place every single drop that's worth anything on the market for 1 inf, you'll get far, far more money than you ever made "back in the day" when indeed a few M was a decent amount of money, and 100M was out of reach for all but the most dedicated player. Nowadays, you really have to try not to make that much by lvl 30 or so, if you're seriously unlucky, 40-ish. So how are things any worse now than before for that "casual player"?
Posi sets, let alone purples didn't exist back then either, right? So who's worse off again, or "completely screwed" as you put it? Oh, right, ppl who don't wanna play the optional system, but still want all the shinies anyway.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
Quote:
As is usually the case, the answer is relative.|
Originally Posted by EyeSlit
Are you seriously saying that a quick university walk is worth more than 8mil?
|
If you can make 100M/week without really trying, then yeah, it gets to that point pretty fast.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
There are many reasons for this. I post this a lot; I should copy/paste it somewhere for easy reference.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
It is also my perception that the inflationary spiral has accelerated in the last year or so. It was formerly rare to see recipes going for more than 5 digits; now it is common. The prices of many rare salvage items have doubled or tripled from the ~1 million rule of thumb that once held true. A character who has been recently played will have more inf from selling their drops at the current prices than those who were last active when prices were lower.
|
- IOs used optimally allow any given character to inflate the rate at which they earn rewards. IOs allow characters to fight more foes at once without suffering defeat, fight higher level foes without suffering defeat or end exhaustion. They allow us to cycle powers faster at lower total cost of activation. In other words, they potentially allow us to fight more, higher-value targets and do so for longer than otherwise possible. All these things increase reward rate.
- We got both XP "smoothing" and patrol XP at the same time. This makes it easier for more people to get to 50 in less time. Assuming some fixed percentage of people will spend play time on 50s once they get one, this means we are accumulating people who play 50s faster than before. 50s earn more inf than anyone else.
- XP "smoothing" came with at least one undocumented feature - it made over-level mobs worth more XP and inf than they had been previously. Higher-level characters are more likely to fight over-level mobs, and earn more inf per mob when they do so.
- I16 allows us to make our ordinary missions into mini-farms, and allows "real" farmers to run bigger farms without padding players. This solved a "problem" that many IO'd characters faced - the inability to fight enough and/or high enough level foes at once to actually fight at their limits of performance. Combined with the very first bullet, this allows characters to optimize their earnings rate, almost certainly at a point much higher than ever before.
- I16 was followed by a patch witch effectively doubled inf earning rates for level 50s.
These are all factors which are accessible to players who aren't doing anything that I think should be considered terribly aberrant, unless one considers spending a large percentage of play time on level 50 characters to be aberrant.
On top of this, numerous changes have variously reduced market supply of at least certain goods. When Merits were first appeared they were supposed to decrease global supply of pool C/D, but various (real) exploits and poorly tuned TF/arc rewards actually spammed them out a lot faster than intended. As this has been addressed, supply rates have almost certainly trended down, though global merit rates have been adjusted up once so far.
Before the AE, the best PL techniques produced level 50 recipes including purples, but now the AE is (still) one of the best XP time opportunities, and it produces no purples and likely produces far less total C/D drops even if people spend their tickets wisely. (Many people interested primarily in PLs simply let their tickets cap, and also spend them on gold rolls, both of which tend to produce dramatically less stuff per player per time compared to regular mobs.) It's pretty hard to say what this has done to pool A supply per inf generated given I16's mini-farm changes probably increased supply.
None of these factors include the fact that probably hundreds of billions of inf have been injected into both game economies by various AE exploits since I14. I've been aware of a number of those exploits as they developed, and watching the market track their rise and fall is mildly fascinating - price trends seem to track the popularity of them quite tightly. And of course, those exploits also created a huge burst of new level 50s, all of whom wanted good stuff but who produced virtually none.
So we've got at least certain pools of drops with decreased drop rates with peak inf rates way up. We've probably got more 50s, fighting more stuff more effectively while earning more per kill than ever before. Combine that with the fact that I think the market tends to concentrate wealth in the hands of a small population of heavily engaged market users, who then toss it around to buy the most desirable shinies and I think it's no surprise that the prices have been on an upward spiral.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
fixed that for you
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
there is a knowledge investment in creating IOs, and some players value their time much more highly than their pyramidal stacks of play money.
|
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
Quote:
To me and a lot of other players, yes it is.|
Originally Posted by EyeSlit
Are you seriously saying that a quick university walk is worth more than 8mil?
|
My play time is severely limited, my pile of inf isn't, so its an easy choice to make.
other players obviously have different situations and don't behave the same way I do, but clearly enough of them do to support these kinds of "ridiculous" markups.
To put it another way any player approaching rewards in an efficient manner, whether on the market or in the 'real' game, will swiftly reach a point where inf loses any importance it had and becomes just one more thing to play around with.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Clicking a link to find the salvage and then hitting a button to craft the enhancement requires "knowledge"?|
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
fixed that for you
|
Really?
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
That has become the principle way of vendoring now, I really do doubt anyone sells things at the shops - other than for particular methods. However, you must admit that if one were to avoid the market or rather just not sell on the market, say from a pre-market perspective i.e Pre-<insertMarketIssueHere>, that obtaining a single billion was pretty much obscene.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
... I've got a level 46 who hasn't "played" the market with something like 400 million. Are we going to need to do a version of the 1-10 challenge that goes 1-40? Sell everything at wents for 1, do 50/50 solo/teamed, see what you get, something like that?
|
Selling all your items on the market from Level 1-50 will grant you a substantial amount of influence/infamy, and 400m doesn't seem too off the mark. However seeing things from a few non-marketeers perspective I understand how that value of 400million can plummet to 40million if one were to simply sell to a shop. My point is not in arguing, but simply to alleviate the vast difference in market/non-market principles.
Fury
Quote:
The more you say, the less sense you make.
|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
What I meant to say is that it's good that the market is optional, or players who don't have hundreds of millions of inf to throw around would be completely screwed. It has become its own game, feeding back on itself, with increasingly little connection to what spawned it.
|
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Something something, the market is evil and so are you.
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
The more you say, the less sense you make.
|
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
Quote:
You either know how to do it, or you don't, so yeah, it takes knowledge. Not a heck of a lot, admittedly.
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Clicking a link to find the salvage and then hitting a button to craft the enhancement requires "knowledge"?
Really? |
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
Quote:
Not to overly belabour the point, but MagaJoule appears to be saying that |
Originally Posted by Megajoule What I meant to say is that it's good that the market is optional, or players who don't have hundreds of millions of inf to throw around would be completely screwed. It has become its own game, feeding back on itself, with increasingly little connection to what spawned it. Quote:
|
poorly funded players are hosed wrt the market, so it's good that it's
optional (assuming I'm reading it correctly).
The non-sequitur in this (and presumably the reason behind Goat's
comment) is this simple fact which frequently gets ignored by folks
complaining about the market.
FACT: When prices are high (ludicrous, exhorbitant - pick your term) and
drops are Free (in the course of normal play), SELL, SELL, SELL!
The best way to NOT be poor is to have ppl give you money - The best
way to get ppl to give you money is to SELL them something they'll pay a
lot for which you got for cheap, or ... Free...
Invariably, this concept seems to be lost in 99% of market complaints.
As for how much you *really* need? I think if you go the DO/SO route, it
adds up to ~18M - 19M over the entire 1-50 career of a toon (based on a
thread peterpeter had a long time ago).
So, yeah, in that context, 100M or even 50M is quite a bit...
Our point however, is that making 50M - 100M is almost impossible to *avoid*
doing even without the market...
My original Blaster had 35M on him when he hit L50 at the start of I-3 - That's
when there wasn't a market and TO/DO/SO/HO were the only "loot" in the game.
The stretch from ~L19 - L33 was tough (cashwise), but post L33 he had more
inf than was spendable...
That truism is even MORE true today... Sell a few drops between L1 and L15,
and there will be NO inf issue - period.
Regards,
4
PS> Also, bear in mind, there is, in fact, ZERO inflation on DO's/SO's -
those prices haven't changed a whit since I-1.... Further, the only
"inflation" on Common IO's is related to salvage, and is minimal. Table
prices and crafting costs haven't changed since I-9
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Damn im rich...
After reading this thread I realized the pressure was off. No mo farmin. No mo marketing. Just having fun now.
The game still sux though and i17 is a bust
cheers!
post neg rep please
Quote:
That's what I got from the first part, which makes sense as far as it goes.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Not to overly belabour the point, but MagaJoule appears to be saying that
poorly funded players are hosed wrt the market, so it's good that it's optional (assuming I'm reading it correctly). |
It's this bizarre tibit I took exception to-
Quote:
| It has become its own game, feeding back on itself, with increasingly little connection to what spawned it. |
To be divorced from the playerbase it would have to be turned into a store.
Quote:
| That truism is even MORE true today... Sell a few drops between L1 and L15, and there will be NO inf issue - period. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
That's not a nice way to talk about people who give out money.|
Originally Posted by EyeSlit
....people will pay 10mil for an IO that they could buy the recipe and mats for 2mil. There's no skill for creating IOs, so an 8mil service charge is unwarranted. People are just stupid.
|
I pay buy it nao prices all the time. Why not? My real life time is way more valuable than inf.
If I am not trying to purple and PVPIO out a toon, there's scads of cash on my account. For PVE, frankenslotting does wonders and is not that expensive of a proposition. Sure you may not get all of the fancy set bonuses, but haveing two to three SOs worth of enhancement per category (ACC, REC, DAM, END-RED, etc) does wonders when it comes to killing spawns.
And as much cash as I have (which is not as much as many folks do) I have a hoard of IOs that are part of my 401k. Whenever I get ready I will take oneout and sell it. In the meantime I earninterst on them (via inflation).
So, yeah, I'll pay 100k for some salvage if I have to so I can craft what I want when I get around to spending my time doing the drone work of marketeering and/or crafting.
To everyone whose stuff I buy, "You're welcome very mcuh. Thanks for having stuff available when I want it."
I have 2 IO tables filled with high-end purple crafted IOs and PvP IOs. I have 5 toons on virtue and each has about 3bil on them and at least a billion invested in the markets.
I'm not sure how much I'm worth and quite frankly I don't care.
My measure of ebil isn't how much I'm worth but how much high-end in game loot I get to delete once I finally decide to leave.
regarding the ease of wealthbuilding in this game, here's a screenshot of the results of a 20 minute MA session with a not that amazing character, my AR/Dev. Found a random farm map, ran it at my usual settings (+0/x5) and ended up with about 1k in tickets, which I rolled in my preferred 34-39 level range.
Not bad for less than a half hour of play.
And of course anyone can round up that many tickets in short order, no need to farm or run at higher than the basic difficulty settings. It'd take longer, but not *that* much longer.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Or do you think you should be able to cherry pick the rewards of the optional system without any other engagement?
If you don't like the optional system, stick to SOs- they still work fine.
If you want the rewards of the optional system however, you'll probably need to USE it.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone