Enhancing= A confusing system for Newbies?


b0bcatmc

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3lon View Post
I assumed that like every other MMO the help channel would be /help or /h, but nope, those bring up some blob of text which didn't answer my question.
See, this I don't get. The info IS in that "blob of text," which is split up into tabs for your convenience. How do you expect to find the information you need if you won't bother to look through the help material? Everything you need to know should be in the Help window. If it's not, feel free to suggest it being added. It's what it's for.

As well, /help was changed to open the help menu instead of talking in the Help channel because people were continually trying to use it to open the Help menu and were continually being given an opaque system message. It was changed by player demand. That players seem unwilling to actually read the help text provided is... Confusing?

Do me a favour - try to remember your question and check the help menu. I'd bet good money the answer is there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3lon View Post
I was on a trial account recently and on top of the trouble finding a team I actually found it pretty hard to find help. I could only talk in local and /hc, except it doesn't tell you in can talk in /hc. I assumed that like every other MMO the help channel would be /help or /h, but nope, those bring up some blob of text which didn't answer my question. At that point I forgot about my original question (though it was probably something trolly) and was scouring /help to figure out how to talk on /help. The worst part is that when I had the actual help channel highlighted and would try to chat into it, it would tell me that the command "/help takes 0 arguments"
This actually is a problem. When exactly did /help and the little H icon in chat stop working? I tried to answer some questions someone was asking in the help channel last week, because noone else was, but I couldn't because all I got was 'help takes 0 arguments' ...

I only then learned of the existance of the /hc command by looking on paragonwiki.

Not very intuitive ...

I'm nearing my 4 year vet, and I always read all the patch notes, but somehow I missed this change ...

EDIT: Meh, should've read through the whole topic before replying.
Anyway, they at least should make sure you can use the help channel by highlighting the H symbol. (yes, I bugged it)


@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
See, this I don't get. The info IS in that "blob of text," which is split up into tabs for your convenience
"That blob of text" doesn't mean the Help menu. It means "h takes 0 args, you provided x." Which isn't particularly helpful.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
"That blob of text" doesn't mean the Help menu. It means "h takes 0 args, you provided x." Which isn't particularly helpful.
Ah, OK, that I can see as a problem. Since commands can be given custom error messages, the /help one could easily be given the message "This is not a chat channel, this command summons the Help menu." Or even better yet, make it accept as many arguments as someone provides it and open the menu, anyway. I don't know what the setup for parsing commands is for City of Heroes, so I don't know if it's doable, but either a better error message or an easier time opening the menu is vital.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Okay Yes all the relevant information to the Enhancement system is out where you can read in it Tutorial, In the books that come with the CD (If you didn't buy Digi Download) and there are various websites including mine that explain how to do Enhancements. The Biggest problem is... New People Don't Read Much!

Enless you are experianced in games that have tutorials about how to do something like our enhancement system, or have the Patients to read the stuff you are more likely to skip past it and bug the crap out of the first person you see because you don't understand the Enhance Menu you looked at or what the little Enhancement Icons are that are showing up in that bin. Get my Drift?

If they showed a cutscene for the more difficult things (That you could click skip) it would make it easier for the people who don't want to read, annoying for us who run through the Tutorial for the badges, but more help for the True Newb!

Though I am sure half of you will disagree on this, I think it would just make it that much easier (But more annoying to badge Hunters)


 

Posted

I don't know if this is still a problem because I've gotten so used to it... but I remember my first month was a mass of confusion about which enhancements in the store corresponded to the enhancements the power indicated it could accept. They didn't use the same words to say the same thing. I also had no real idea what some of them actually did so I didn't know if I should slot them and if so how many. The "Sets" list on each power was totally confusing too because I had no idea about inventions.

"But I want the Accurate Healing enhancement and I can't find it!"

I did read the tutorial closely but having absolutely no experience in the game (or any MMO) I was lost on multiple points. A lot of the jargon and acronyms I read or overheard in the game might as well been spoken in Greek for all the help it did.

"PBAOE? Gehsundheit."

Of course now I look at all of it and think it's fairly simple, but I do remember that I didn't think that once upon a time.


 

Posted

I played Star Wars Galaxies before this, so I was lost for a long while. While a Person from WoW is only lost for maybe an hour. Tells ya something about MMOs doesn't it lol.


 

Posted

The old /h was kinda funny...someone would pop in saying something like "enhancements"
and everyone would go "/h is a chat channel, not the help menu"..so it does make sense that they changed it to the more standard /h opens help menu. They just need to make it a bit less picky about how many arguments it can parse and just open the menu anytime it sees /h.


Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMistNinja View Post
Okay Yes all the relevant information to the Enhancement system is out where you can read in it Tutorial, In the books that come with the CD (If you didn't buy Digi Download) and there are various websites including mine that explain how to do Enhancements. The Biggest problem is... New People Don't Read Much!
Show of hands - how many longer-term players went "Wait, did they actually update the manual?"

I know my original (COH Collectors DVD) manual didn't have all that much on enhancements, mentioning 28 types and a bit of text on what to do (and which makes it sound like you drag the enhancement to the power - not "on the enhancement screen," just "to the power.")

Also, as a bit of a chuckle... the "updated" COV manual (look at the PDF,) while showing Arachnos soldiers and widows, still shows out of date, no longer existing enhancements. Well, one, at least. (Or rather two that were folded into one. Same list got copied over to the COH manual.) See who spots them. >.> (And who remembers the other two that got combined into what.)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Show of hands - how many longer-term players went "Wait, did they actually update the manual?"
I read my CoH manual. Haven't bothered with the CoV one. It didn't make much sense to me at all, since I read it prior to even starting the game, but I referenced it more than a few times trying to figure things out, and it helped. It's out of date, and it wasn't very good even back when it was new, but that's besides the point. That was then. This is now. Believe it or not, we do have better documentation these days. And in-game, no less. When I started out, we didn't have a Help menu at all


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Of course enhancing is going to be confusing to some new players.

The questions are: why? And How to fix it?

In other MMOs, when gear drops, you can look at it and get some idea of where to put it. "Oh, I have gloves. Are these better than my old gloves?"

Or, if you have generic looking boosters like gems or what not, the bonuses they add are simple and intuitive: "+3 kill people." "+2 not die as much"

Maybe they should bury the more exact info down a bit, and when you first click on an Enhancement it just says (in large letters), "Boosts Accuracy (small)" and gives you a "would you like to know more?" button.

Of course, nothing but experience is going to help casual players realize that slotting Brawl for 6x damage might not eventually pay off.


Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
Of course, nothing but experience is going to help casual players realize that slotting Brawl for 6x damage might not eventually pay off.
Having the real numbers goes a long way towards just that. Before, you knew Brawl did damage. How much? How does it compare to, say, Hack? Dunno, but it's an attack, so why not slot it? Right now, you can look at its damage and tell just how much it does. That's a big benefit right there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX View Post
True... I cannot wait to see the new tut.
Realistic sigh and a lopsided grin....I am almost 100 percent positive I shall have problems in this new tutorial.

This is my first and only video game. Outbreak was so confusing to me that my better half made himself a toon and literally took me by the ear and dragged me through the tutorial.

Then a year later I decided I was going to play Villians....got totally lost in there.

I can look back and laugh now....but not then...shudder.

And I am probably going to get lost in this new tut as well, but, this time around, I am not going to beat myself up about it

I am going to relax, and if I get lost, I shall laugh about it

And I will find myway into Pretoria.

Maybe hours later, but I will get there

Lisa.


So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try

***Dennis DeYoung

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by McCharraigin View Post
Realistic sigh and a lopsided grin....I am almost 100 percent positive I shall have problems in this new tutorial.

This is my first and only video game. Outbreak was so confusing to me that my better half made himself a toon and literally took me by the ear and dragged me through the tutorial.

Then a year later I decided I was going to play Villians....got totally lost in there.

I can look back and laugh now....but not then...shudder.

And I am probably going to get lost in this new tut as well, but, this time around, I am not going to beat myself up about it

I am going to relax, and if I get lost, I shall laugh about it

And I will find myway into Pretoria.

Maybe hours later, but I will get there

Lisa.
Yes, but you're a special case. This I know from personal experience and many long conversations.

There are people who find tutorials confusing and then there are people who think that a game is worthless if you actually NEED a tutorial.

In terms of MMOs, some of that is the fault of MMOs for consistently being such stupid copies of each other. Someone coming from a standard fare fantasy MMO background is going to be a bit put off by the fact that even the sleekest, shiniest chest piece in the costume creator doesn't, in fact, add to your armor rating.

Now that's normal if you are approaching a game that's a bit different from what you're used to. It's another thing entirely to attempt to ignore what information is provided and available for you and then state that the game is too hard.

Some of that is a byproduct of our younger generation's self inflicted ADD. People think that anything that takes any effort or a bit of logical thought is somehow offensive and needs to be removed.

Society is simultaneously developing a lower tolerance for learning right alongside a lower tolerance for failing. But at the same time making no connection between the two.

This is reflected in a lot of current games where RTS games now have strategy and management elements removed because they need to appeal to the delicate masses. Where skill based games now have a handy auto kill mechanic that requires almost no player input(hello Splinter Cell: Conviction).

We are squarely in the Age of Rewarding Stupidity.


 

Posted

I am a very old MMO player, i started and stoped playing this game in 2005 and it wanst even one of my first MMOs back then, now that i reactived my account the main problem is the lack of infos in the game itself, i didint looked really hard tho, but i didint find any place where it says that 3 of more of the same type enhance is not good, and the IO is still a little confusing, but the biggest problem with the guides is that 90% of them are outdated, idk about CoH because ive been playing for one week, but in WoW if i stoped playing for one patch alot of things changed and you had to relearn alot of stuff


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus_NA View Post
I am a very old MMO player, i started and stoped playing this game in 2005 and it wanst even one of my first MMOs back then, now that i reactived my account the main problem is the lack of infos in the game itself, i didint looked really hard tho, but i didint find any place where it says that 3 of more of the same type enhance is not good, and the IO is still a little confusing, but the biggest problem with the guides is that 90% of them are outdated, idk about CoH because ive been playing for one week, but in WoW if i stoped playing for one patch alot of things changed and you had to relearn alot of stuff
You have some very good points and that is why I have been complaining a lot about the CoH website lately. It is completely realistic to expect to find accurate, up-to-date, and relavent information there. Which makes the lack of information appalling. You would think that as THE website for the game, that at the very least you could get a basic description of the powers for each AT. I'm not talking the actual numbers for the powers, but a basic description of the various sets and their powers would be nice. Some basic builds would be a good idea too and maybe some hints for making the game play learning curve faster.

New players should not have to come here to the forums for information about the game. Let's be honest, some people have made some really good recommendations on the forums and one or two issues later they were horrible recommendations (6 slotting haste and the deminishing returns comes along). And ParagonWiki can be just as bad.

Simly put, if the guides were incorporated into the website and the website updated as new patches/Issues come out, the new players would have a much easier time learning this game.


 

Posted

After Looking back through the Tutorials in all the originalness, the CoV Tutorial Covered the same thing the CoH one did (Sept mentioning pets for MMs), the mistake there is after you leave Mercy Island you no longer have a Contact and are stuck to the paper. Even though the game mentions this when you get into lvl range of the Paper Contact it doesn't mention it in the fact that "This is your next and only contact to you successfully complete a Bank Robbery"

Also in both tutorials it still tells you that Enhancements are an Optional thing. If they were so optional then I could hit something at lvl 20 with no Enhances when in fact I only have a 1 in 5 chance of actually hitting what I have in target without the Enhances. Thats what isn't really explained besides the fact that the Enhancements after Trainning Lvl are confusing as hell (I learned Tech and Natural, I still have probs with the other groups and have been playing since CoV Started). I tend to stick with what I know which isn't a problem for me, but can be a HUGE problem for the new people.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkMistNinja View Post
After Looking back through the Tutorials in all the originalness, the CoV Tutorial Covered the same thing the CoH one did (Sept mentioning pets for MMs), the mistake there is after you leave Mercy Island you no longer have a Contact and are stuck to the paper. Even though the game mentions this when you get into lvl range of the Paper Contact it doesn't mention it in the fact that "This is your next and only contact to you successfully complete a Bank Robbery"
While more explanation as to what you can do AFTER the Broker would be nice, you can really just go along with what he says and eventually he'll give you another contact. Before you get your "Paper" contact, Brokers add into your active contacts Tab. Once you head over to Port Oaks, either Drea the Hook or Mikey the Ear will be added to your contacts list. Follow that to the contact and he'll tell you about the Newspaper. With no other contacts to work for, do Paper missions and eventually the Paper will direct you back to your Broker, who will pop back into your Active contacts list. Go to him, take and either do or fail the Mayhem mission and you will get a new, non-broker contact. There ought to be no way to get it wrong, the way the system is set up.

Also in both tutorials it still tells you that Enhancements are an Optional thing. If they were so optional then I could hit something at lvl 20 with no Enhances when in fact I only have a 1 in 5 chance of actually hitting what I have in target without the Enhances. Thats what isn't really explained[/quote]

That's not correct, as well. Your base chance to hit against an even con (same level as you) enemy is 75%, which is 3 out of 4, not 1 out of 5. As well, plenty of people don't even bother with Trainings and DOs and slot pretty much nothing other than what drops until SOs become available. That said, you have a point - enhancements are not optional, and should not be described as such.

Quote:
besides the fact that the Enhancements after Trainning Lvl are confusing as hell (I learned Tech and Natural, I still have probs with the other groups and have been playing since CoV Started). I tend to stick with what I know which isn't a problem for me, but can be a HUGE problem for the new people.
You have a point, and that's actually the consequence of an odd bug that never got fixed. Before, when buying enhancements, you could just mouse-over the enhancement and it would tell you what it does. Currently, you have to right-click on an enhancement in the store interface, click on Info and THEN it will tell you. It's unintuitive, I grant you, but you can save yourself a LOT of trouble if you try to look for the colour of enhancements and their place in the list (enhancement order is ALWAYS the same) than to go by name and picture. An easy rundown is as follows:

Red - damage
Blue - endurance reduction
Yellow - accuracy
Purple - defence/damage resistance
Orange - hold

There are others, but I don't want to list them here. In fact, you can have a look at this to get a better idea of what to look for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Of course the problem is a new player isn't going to know any of that and the names of the DO's and SO's are terrible. Knowing they are in the same order doesn't help a lot when you can't figure out what the order is (I still have only a vague idea). The colors on the DO's and SO's are not as clear as the colors on the trainings because of the artwork so sometimes that doesn't help and that's assuming it dawns on you that the colors are the same. Then there is the problem of knowing what enhancement you are looking for (Enhance Endurance Cost vs Endurance Discount vs Endurance Reduction vs Endurance Modification, Disorient vs Stun, etc).

Thank goodness when I was brand new the mouse-over worked. I don't know what I would have done if the current bug was active (When IS that getting fixed?).

All of that was one reason I forced myself to learn the IO system (besides being broke from replacing everything every 5 levels) - I recognized the icons from the training enhancements and I didn't have to figure out the DO and SO enhancements.

But what really helped me was an awesome Widow villain-side who teamed up with my friend and I in the pre 10th level range and helped us slot up our characters by providing the cash and advice. After that I understood a lot more than what simple experience had taught me in the 20 or so levels I'd gained on my 2 heroes.


 

Posted

Put me in for a request to make all the enhancement names merely Accuracy, Damage, Flight etc... put the fancy nonintuitive names as the right click color text.

I hadn't made very many science origin characters... let's just say nothing says "Jump" like.... "Butadiene Exposure".

It's easy on the big 5 ...Acc,Dam,End,Hold,Heal... its all the other shades of tan and grey ones.

I'm pretty good at just going with the order, but my wife absolutely hates the current system depending on origin.


The final line of a post by Sweet_Sarah on Liberty
"Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden_Avariel View Post
Of course the problem is a new player isn't going to know any of that and the names of the DO's and SO's are terrible. Knowing they are in the same order doesn't help a lot when you can't figure out what the order is (I still have only a vague idea). The colors on the DO's and SO's are not as clear as the colors on the trainings because of the artwork so sometimes that doesn't help and that's assuming it dawns on you that the colors are the same. Then there is the problem of knowing what enhancement you are looking for (Enhance Endurance Cost vs Endurance Discount vs Endurance Reduction vs Endurance Modification, Disorient vs Stun, etc).
While I agree that this is problematic, calling up Info on the enhancements has always worked and remains working today. It's how I originally learned what enhancements did what back in 2004 when the mouse-over feature didn't even exist. You can call up Info on practically everything, so it makes sense that you'd call it up on enhancements you want to know more about.

As to what enhancements you want, those are written into the powers, themselves. If you mouse-over a power in the Enhancements screen, the little field at the bottom right will tell you what enhancements you power will take. All you need to do is find the enhancements that have the same effect. Granted, without mouse-over help, it's cumbersome and fat, but it's far from impossible. Again, no-one ever told me about it. It just seemed natural at the time.

Again, I'm not opposed to an improvement to the system, but let's not try to claim it's impossible to find your way around it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I didn't say it was impossible - I did learn after all and had figured out some before meeting the Widow. I was saying that it was confusing to me when I was new. I'm very familiar with the Info button but it is cumbersome when you have to look at every single enhancement in an attempt to find the one you want, especially if you aren't sure what you want.

I do know I bought multiple enhancements in the early days (even with a working mouse-over) that wouldn't slot because the names listed in the power didn't exactly match the names of the enhancements. I look at it now and wonder how the heck I could have been confused but the fact remains that I was. Sadly, the more familiar we become with the system the less help we are at coming up with ways to help new players learn unless you deal with a constant stream of new players.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Hmm...
Quote:
Most people look over the tut quickly and end up moving on to enjoy the game.

...


Quote:
I really think there should be another mission or at least another tut in gameplay to help people.
If people are irresponsible enough to skip one tutorial, how is a second tutorial that they're going to skip just as readily going to help them?
I've got to agree with Sam.

The very first time I played CoX, I spent a great deal of time creating my character and once that was done I was antsy to play so it was "Bah, I don't need no stinkin' tutorial..." and launched directly into the game.

I think it took me all of one minute to realize I was going to need a little information. So I went back and started from scratch and ran through the tutorial.

When I got my first piece of salvage, I was directed to the Auction House, where I found yet more information, and then later on in my career, I went to school. Just a few study courses, but a wealth of information.

If people are unwilling to read the information that is already in the game, why would throwing yet more dialog windows/tutorials at them make any difference?

There are spots where the information can be updated, and made more explanatory, but people complaining about there not being any help in the game, when they've bypassed most of it...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX View Post
True... I cannot wait to see the new tut.
Yes I also can not wait until the King Tut exhibit comes to Seattle next year......what? Oh you mean TUTORIAL? First people need to stop being lazy and actually use proper spelling.

While there should be little more info provided people are at fault not reading everything in the ....say it with me....tutorial. Really if you do not read all the instructions provided (just like something you buy that requires assembly) then the fault is yours. When you read everything and still have problems then more needs to be added.


Valaraine: Master Archer & Electricity Whiz.
(Archer - lvl 50, swordswoman - lvl 50, Elec zapper - lvl 35, Ice/DB tank - lvl 50, Arch/En - lvl 26, Lvl 33 Blade wielder, trick archer - lvl 34, flame tank - lvl 30, rad specialist - lvl 44.)
My DA page

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juteboxhero View Post
Yes I also can not wait until the King Tut exhibit comes to Seattle next year......what? Oh you mean TUTORIAL? First people need to stop being lazy and actually use proper spelling.
Cannot is one word not two. How about an in game hero planner? It boils down to "quality of life" or making the game more "user friendly." Just because someone has no problem with the current system doesn't mean making it easier is a bad idea. Let go of the ego's and quit coming down on things that will ultimately make the game more encouraging for more people to play.