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I'm always in agreement for more EB/AV/GM variety, and I think tanks would be pretty damn cool. Sign me up |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's my suggestion: Please add tanks to the game. Even if they have to be the Vanguard variety. Not turrets, not turrets on top of parked vehicles. Tanks. The kind that move around. Keep them as bosses or elite bosses if you must. Hell, make them AVs and keep them to special encounters and TFs only.
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[CENTER][U][COLOR=#22229c][URL="http://cit.cohtitan.com/character/53024"][IMG]http://avatars.cohtitan.com/signatures/cit/u53024.png[/IMG][/URL][/COLOR][/U][/CENTER]
[CENTER][SIZE=1][COLOR=white]The #1 True Villain badge collector on Infinity.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/CENTER]
I agree whole-heartedly! Why have a Super Strength Tank if he cant smash a, well...tank?! You really dont get the feel for how powerful the Hulk is until you set him against the US Army. This is why I love the missions where we get the chance to tear up those mini submarines.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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You *do* realize how small aircraft can be? Like this, or if we head to flying car concepts we have things like this, which would fit nicely in COH, frankly, or this, shown on a test flight, or others.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The game tries to fudge vehicles. It really does. The Sky Raiders have those large-ish Sky Skiff things that they really hope we'll squint and pretend are actual aircraf5t, even though they're little bigger than a large Boulder or Quarry.
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That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the two problems with them would be tracking (turret tracking, that is, as you mentioned) and potentially damage - as if I'm beating on a tank with my SS tank/brute, I want to see it getting dented.
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing a range of military vehicles - there are groups enough that could use them. Tanks, missile launchers, and APCs. Have your fliers have to deal with AA missiles and quad-AA guns.
I'd suspect, as well, that you'd only see them in instanced maps or special areas, though (similar to the Mole Machines, who themselves are insanely difficult to destroy - which could be another problem.)
Sounds like a great idea. I'm all for it.
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Yeah, I know how small aircraft CAN be, but that's kind of the point. They CAN be big, too, and one thing we could use more of in this game is big things to break. Big tanks, big choppers... Big robots, but we already kind of have that.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
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And I can appreciate the problem of damage effects, but to be honest, I can do without those if we REALLY had to. It's just the pure notion of a dude fight a tank.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Do really really /want.
It always bugs me how the tank patrols in RWZ rumble blithely along the road, ignoring mass mobs and battles at all times. And never getting scrapped either. Yes, movement and scripting could be a bugger...but cool much?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Precisely |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Do really really /want.
It always bugs me how the tank patrols in RWZ rumble blithely along the road, ignoring mass mobs and battles at all times. And never getting scrapped either. Yes, movement and scripting could be a bugger...but cool much? |
I'd love to see a realistic-size tank (which is bigger than most people imagine), but even the Vanguard mini-tanks will do. It'd be really cool to see them in action, even I didn't get to fight them. Right now, the most we have are the static, parked quads with rocket launchers on them, but I'd really love to see the main gun of a battle tank fire. I don't even want to drive the thing, I just want to see it move with SOME intelligence, and actually engage in fights.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Great Concept I'm all in they can test them out on Tanker Tuesday!!!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Precisely
I'd love to see a realistic-size tank (which is bigger than most people imagine), but even the Vanguard mini-tanks will do. It'd be really cool to see them in action, even I didn't get to fight them. Right now, the most we have are the static, parked quads with rocket launchers on them, but I'd really love to see the main gun of a battle tank fire. I don't even want to drive the thing, I just want to see it move with SOME intelligence, and actually engage in fights. |
Few months ago, I stood next to an M1 ABRAMS and realized just how friggin huge those damn things are. I gave it a little tug too and it might as well had been Mt. Everest, I couldn't even shake it in the slightest. To think the Hulk rips into them like tin foil, really gives you some perspective.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
/signed and even cooler if we can tear them up somehow even if just a graphical effect like destroying stuff in mayhems.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Tanks would have to have insane smash/lethal resists. I can see it now...
scene: two soldiers inside the tank.
soldier 1: Hey did you see that game last night?
soldier 2: Oh yeah, They won big time!
<plink><plink>
Soldier 1: What was that?
Soldier 2: Huh?
Soldier 1: That sound? What was it?
<plink><plink>
Soldier 2: Oh, haha. There some archery blaster outside.
Soldier 1: ...
Soldier 2: He's been out there for an hour.
<plink><plink>
Soldier 1: What time is the game on tonight?
currently reading: A Mighty Fortress (David Weber)
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<.<|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Few months ago, I stood next to an M1 ABRAMS and realized just how friggin huge those damn things are. I gave it a little tug too and it might as well had been Mt. Everest, I couldn't even shake it in the slightest. To think the Hulk rips into them like tin foil, really gives you some perspective.
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>.>
Actually the only thing that I can thing of, really isn't even close to an explanation. Back when Back Alley was talking about why the shark model never made it in game as an actual enemy, he mentioned turning off their ability to jump. He said this wouldn't work, because then folks would just hover above them and shoot them at range for risk free XP. Of course, this wouldn't work as an explanation for the Tanks, because they're all about ranged attacks.
(okay, mostly I just posted because of the Abrams comment. I've never met you before in my life Anti-Proton.)
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
It would be interesting, especially since in the City of backstory, heroes had trouble fighting tanks in World War II, and many enemies we fight are said in their descriptions to compare favorably to tanks.
Also accounting for modern Super Technology, I would estimate a City of-verse tank to have a railgun main cannon, missile batteries, anti-personal gun turrets, and heavy armor all around the whole thing would probably be cognatized like Lusca in some respects.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Imagine being chased down by those nasty Quad-Howitzers mounted on tank treads.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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The main problem was that the sharks would leave the water and become land sharks, then when they were restricted to water only, they became easy pray as they were unable to respond. Tanks, as you mentioned, are all about ranged damage, and I have no problem allowing a tank's main gun to have more range than any player attack ever could. These things shoot at each other from over 4 km in real life, so it'd only fit. It's the old hover-sniping problem, and the old hoversniping solution - give all enemies an outranging ranged attack, which this would have by definition.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Actually the only thing that I can thing of, really isn't even close to an explanation. Back when Back Alley was talking about why the shark model never made it in game as an actual enemy, he mentioned turning off their ability to jump. He said this wouldn't work, because then folks would just hover above them and shoot them at range for risk free XP. Of course, this wouldn't work as an explanation for the Tanks, because they're all about ranged attacks.
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Something else, as well...
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Also accounting for modern Super Technology, I would estimate a City of-verse tank to have a railgun main cannon, missile batteries, anti-personal gun turrets, and heavy armor all around the whole thing would probably be cognatized like Lusca in some respects.
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Now, there are two solutions to this. One is the obvious - go the UT2004/Battlefield 2142 route and slap an articulated auto cannon on top of the turret, similar to how "Turrets" will switch to a flamethrower if a player walks so close he's between the gun barrels. That way, if someone closes in on the tank past the minimum reach of its maingun, it'd switch to that powerful machine gun. Alternately, go the WW1 tank route and stick guns all over the tank, in addition to its main gun, which it would use at closer ranged (closer than its main gun, anyway) or in case an enemy walked too close past the main gun's minimum range. Modern-day tanks notwithstanding, there's nothing saying that a PPD hard suit style tank can't exist that had these kinds of guns all over its hull. It'd look cool, at the very least.
As to why "that" would be cool, here's a problem with modern-day "challenging" fights - invariably they come down to something with huge resistances, lots of hit points and powerful attacks. There's usually some kind of gimmick to avoid some of those problems, but at best they're bugs, and at worst just fiddly mechanics, like having to shoot M. Bison with the dimensional disruptor thing. What about an AI gimmick similar to what Malta soldiers used to do? Before, if you walked into melee with a Gunslinger, he'd stick to his basic attacks and not use his more powerful ones. Even today, walking into point-blank melee with a Titan will force it to use only its punching attack. Why not have a similar kind of gimmick as that for a tank? A few things I can think of:
Have the bulk of the thing's firepower pointing forward, such that it can't attack people to the sides without turning its body or its turret. This allows teams split up and avoid the heaviest of its fire by ensuring squishies stay out of its line of fire. Or, why not let a speedy enough character be able to run around such an enemy fast enough to keep out of its line of fire most of the time? I mean, a main gun would have a SERIOUS punch, but if you can avoid letting it point at you...
Or have the thing switch between several AI modes. At long range, it'll just hang back and shoot just its main gun. At medium range, it would try to back up, keeping within range of its secondary guns, but far enough away to be out of range of YOUR attacks. At close range, it would stop trying to use its main gun (possibly aiming it at someone farther away) and instead switch to secondary guns only, but MORE of them. This would make it a valid tactical choice to decide what distance to fight the thing at.
Or how about giving it limited sight? I'm pretty sure unaggroed NPCs have a higher visual range ahead of them than they do behind them, as it's patently easy to sneak up on one from behind even without stealth powers, yet walking up to the front of one has you instantly spotted. So why not have the thing be able to lose sight of players not within some cone in front of it? Have it lose aggro often and have to reaggro only on what it sees. Vahzilok zombies seem to do that to some extent, and as far as I'm aware, that mechanic is unique to them.
I mean, there's a LOT of ground for cool gimmicks with a tank
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ya know, they have the tech to show 'smashed up' already, granted, its limited to cars, and vaults, but they could just reskin one of those swat vans *about as big as a those mini tanks in RWZ* throw on either one of the turrets we already have (dual/quad turrets, or a variety of missile packs) or just for fun, slap on an actual 'tank' turret on it, and give it an extended range, higher damage 'fireball' like attack, cuz from what I've seen of tanks going at it, its not a single target kinda volley. Those shells explode and its not pretty whats left over.
Heck, that could be the big 'bang' power, a high damage fireball (say, scale 3.0 fire and 2.7 smashing damage or something crazy) then multiple machine gun like attacks. And for variety, you can always hand wave different types of turret shells, giving it quicker (but less damaging) AoE attacks. Which is entirely possible, giving the scope of Malta, longbow, heck, i could even see freakshow trying to mesh with tanks, just to give themselves the turret (imagine, a freakshow tank, with a TANK turret strapped to its back)
Plus, the bot/traps MM in me just loves blowing stuff up, that mission from black scorpion where you blow up the longbow chasers just makes me happy everytime.
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I think it's this. The chasis would obviously define the direction the tank is moving, but what would happen when the target is facing 90 degrees to the side? With current implementation I'd see the whole tank (the turret and the chasis) turning to the target (which would look about as ridiculous as the conscious generators).| What's the problem with these, really? Is there a problem with causing the turret to track independent of the chasis? |
I can't think of a power that wouldn't make the whole character turn, be it location or target baset.
I'd like to see tanks in game however, maybe even as temporary powers where you'd turn yourself into a tank (similarly to the old shivan shard temp power, giving you powers of a Shivan).
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Tanks do indeed stock explosive shells, which are basically fairly big bombs, but they're mainly used against infantry and artillery emplacements - basically anything that has small, soft targets. An actual anti-tank round, however, is more often a hardened metal spike fired with incredible force that punches through armour oftentimes detonates munitions aboard the enemy tank. It's what's called a sabot round, because the spike is much narrower than the broe of the gun barrel, and as such needs to be placed in a drop-away sabot in order to be fired.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
from what I've seen of tanks going at it, its not a single target kinda volley. Those shells explode and its not pretty whats left over.
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The reason I'm explaining this is because a LOT of our heroes here don't exactly count as "soft" targets. We get shot at with high-powered rifles, rockets, lasers, grenades, mines and eldritch energy. It would really make sense to shoot an immovable slab of walking granite with an armour-piercing round, rather than a high-explosive charge, at least from what I understand.
Of course, this is merely a caveat, but it DOES bother me when I see tanks in games depicted as firing explosive rounds primarily, for the simple reason that their highest-impact rounds really aren't. Well, as far as I know, at least.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You just made me realize that oh hey, we DON'T get to fight tanks in this game. And now it's going to bother me as to why the heck not until they add a tank or two for us to smash. Let us smash tanks, devs!
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Well, here's another idea, what about using Lusca tech for it? The thing would be that outer armored chassis would have low HP, but pretty mean resistance and Super Science would allow for it to repair fairly quickly if you're not fast enough (Let's say each armored plate has about as much HP as a defender of the same level, but 75% resistance to all damage types, can regenerate- okay, this is where numbers suck for me, but a decent enough amount), but once the outer armor's gone, it's gone, and what remains are much more fragile mechanical systems, but it's still a lot to work through. (Let's say the inner shell has max tanker HP, but only about 10-20% resistance to all damage types, and no ability to regenerate)|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow;2780478
That's kind of something I considered, myself. A regular tank basically has one coaxial machinegun on the side of the main gun, one hull-mounted machinegun for someone on the inside to fire and one free-turning machinegun on the turret. As such, a tank's full firepower greatly depends on where it is facing, which isn't something City of Heroes is good about supporting. Not that that wouldn't be cool, though. Basically, this presents the same problem as those... What kind of tanks were they? In WW2, a particular type of German tank killer was sent into action without any mounted machineguns and just the hull-fixed main gun. As expected, Allied soldiers had a field day climbing all over the things on foot and strapping high explosives to them. A tank's main gun is powerful, but at short range, isn't really mobile enough to do for its sole armament. Now, there are two solutions to this. One is the obvious - go the UT2004/Battlefield 2142 route and slap an articulated auto cannon on top of the turret, similar to how "Turrets" will switch to a flamethrower if a player walks so close he's between the gun barrels. That way, if someone closes in on the tank past the minimum reach of its maingun, it'd switch to that powerful machine gun. Alternately, go the [url=http://gallery.photo.net/photo/2029970-md.jpg WW1 tank route[/url] and stick guns all over the tank, in addition to its main gun, which it would use at closer ranged (closer than its main gun, anyway) or in case an enemy walked too close past the main gun's minimum range. Modern-day tanks notwithstanding, there's nothing saying that a PPD hard suit style tank can't exist that had these kinds of guns all over its hull. It'd look cool, at the very least.
As to why "that" would be cool, here's a problem with modern-day "challenging" fights - invariably they come down to something with huge resistances, lots of hit points and powerful attacks. There's usually some kind of gimmick to avoid some of those problems, but at best they're bugs, and at worst just fiddly mechanics, like having to shoot M. Bison with the dimensional disruptor thing. What about an AI gimmick similar to what Malta soldiers used to do? Before, if you walked into melee with a Gunslinger, he'd stick to his basic attacks and not use his more powerful ones. Even today, walking into point-blank melee with a Titan will force it to use only its punching attack. Why not have a similar kind of gimmick as that for a tank? A few things I can think of: Have the bulk of the thing's firepower pointing forward, such that it can't attack people to the sides without turning its body or its turret. This allows teams split up and avoid the heaviest of its fire by ensuring squishies stay out of its line of fire. Or, why not let a speedy enough character be able to run around such an enemy fast enough to keep out of its line of fire most of the time? I mean, a main gun would have a SERIOUS punch, but if you can avoid letting it point at you... Or have the thing switch between several AI modes. At long range, it'll just hang back and shoot just its main gun. At medium range, it would try to back up, keeping within range of its secondary guns, but far enough away to be out of range of YOUR attacks. At close range, it would stop trying to use its main gun (possibly aiming it at someone farther away) and instead switch to secondary guns only, but MORE of them. This would make it a valid tactical choice to decide what distance to fight the thing at. Or how about giving it limited sight? I'm pretty sure unaggroed NPCs have a higher visual range ahead of them than they do behind them, as it's patently easy to sneak up on one from behind even without stealth powers, yet walking up to the front of one has you instantly spotted. So why not have the thing be able to lose sight of players not within some cone in front of it? Have it lose aggro often and have to reaggro only on what it sees. Vahzilok zombies seem to do that to some extent, and as far as I'm aware, that mechanic is unique to them. I mean, there's a LOT of ground for cool gimmicks with a tank |
The main cannon can be targeted as well, which would have low HP, no ability to regenerate, but it can self revive after a long period of time, and moderate resistances to all damage types. Finally, there'd be the missile batteries and the multiple mini turret mounts with only minion HP and minor resistances at best.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Originally Posted by Ocularis
Tanks would have to have insane smash/lethal resists. I can see it now...
scene: two soldiers inside the tank. soldier 1: Hey did you see that game last night? soldier 2: Oh yeah, They won big time! <plink><plink> Soldier 1: What was that? Soldier 2: Huh? Soldier 1: That sound? What was it? <plink><plink> Soldier 2: Oh, haha. There some archery blaster outside. Soldier 1: ... Soldier 2: He's been out there for an hour. <plink><plink> Soldier 1: What time is the game on tonight? |
Soldier 1 : Hey, now he's got a weird little arrow out. Ha ha ha
<plink>
Soldier 2 : What's that dripping all over the tank? Oil? Huh?
Soldier 1 : And now he's got what? A taser? What the hell?
<whoosh>
Soldier 1 : Aaah, that's no Blaster. Quickly, drive out drive out, I'm broiling alive. He's drawing some sort of other arrow
<plink> <fizz bang crackle>
Soldier 2 : I can't. The controls are all dead. AAAAAH
/signed though. Tanks would be an excellent addition to the game.
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If we can get over not cutting a hellion in half with headsplitter we can get over not denting a tank with haymaker.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the two problems with them would be tracking (turret tracking, that is, as you mentioned) and potentially damage - as if I'm beating on a tank with my SS tank/brute, I want to see it getting dented. |
I'm all for any new enemies. I recently created an arc for myself that has a bunch of enemies that I rarely encounter (ie those scorpion-creys) and had fun facing something a bit different while not being ridiculously OP'd like most custom enemies in MA.
/signed.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Well, here's another idea, what about using Lusca tech for it? The thing would be that outer armored chassis would have low HP, but pretty mean resistance and Super Science would allow for it to repair fairly quickly if you're not fast enough (Let's say each armored plate has about as much HP as a defender of the same level, but 75% resistance to all damage types, can regenerate- okay, this is where numbers suck for me, but a decent enough amount), but once the outer armor's gone, it's gone, and what remains are much more fragile mechanical systems, but it's still a lot to work through. (Let's say the inner shell has max tanker HP, but only about 10-20% resistance to all damage types, and no ability to regenerate)
The main cannon can be targeted as well, which would have low HP, no ability to regenerate, but it can self revive after a long period of time, and moderate resistances to all damage types. Finally, there'd be the missile batteries and the multiple mini turret mounts with only minion HP and minor resistances at best. |
Yes...everything is clear now... Tank GMs
I mentioned this in another thread, so if you get a sense of deja vu, it's not a defect in the Matrix. I just didn't want to derail that thread.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I realise there's a particular kind of enemy we currently utterly lack. We have plenty of humanoids, some non-standard snakes, a few spider robots, a few floating enemies and so forth, even a giant robot thing. You'd think it would be natural, but the one thing we currently never fight against for some odd reason is the most obvious one:
TANKS!
I mean, seriously. We already have models in the game, both from the US military looking ones in Firebase Zulu and the Vanguard insignia tanks that run around the War Zone. Sure, they're actually mini tanks in the same sense as the Metal Slug tank is a mini-tank, in that they're about as big as large SUVs, but they're still tanks. You don't really need a tank to do very much, other than swivel its turret, move around and shoot. I can even deal with insta-turn for the turret and a coaxial machinegun if turning speed isn't factored into enemy NPCs.
What's the problem with these, really? Is there a problem with causing the turret to track independent of the chasis? Is it a problem of mobility and size? That never stopped the Kronos Titan, Babbage or Jurasik from being made. I mean, they can't exactly get through doors, but that doesn't stop them. It can't be a problem with too large a hit box, since a tank, even a normal-sized one, is still far and away smaller than many of our own Giant Monsters. And the Vanguard tanks are even smaller than that. They're about as big as a Greater Devoured, and not nearly as tall. And speaking of tall, how do Fake Nemesis fit through those little doors in office buildings? Or the infamous question: "How did they get a Sky Skiff IN THERE?"
The game tries to fudge vehicles. It really does. The Sky Raiders have those large-ish Sky Skiff things that they really hope we'll squint and pretend are actual aircraf5t, even though they're little bigger than a large Boulder or Quarry. Or Zeus Class Titan, for that matter. We also get the Longbow Chasers, though I suspect those are added less because VEHICLES!!! and more because someone was feeling sadistic at the time and thought JUST Eagles wasn't enough for Longbow. But even taking them as vehicles, they're still no bigger than a basic autogyro. And even then, they're all "aircraft." We do not have a single land-based enemy that doesn't walk on multiple legs. Not even a tracked robot, and you'd think those would be fairly easy.
Here's my suggestion: Please add tanks to the game. Even if they have to be the Vanguard variety. Not turrets, not turrets on top of parked vehicles. Tanks. The kind that move around. Keep them as bosses or elite bosses if you must. Hell, make them AVs and keep them to special encounters and TFs only. Wouldn't one fit somewhere in the Reichsman stories, at least? They're frikkin' Neo Nazi. How can they NOT have frikkin' huge tanks? I mean, we have the Arachnos Flier as a Giant Monster, and a real tank wouldn't be much less... Well, big. Here's a bit of perspective. The size of an M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank, as far as I can find on the 'net, is:
Length With Gun Forward: 387'' / 32'3'' (that's almost 10 metres long)
Turret Height: 93.5'' / 7'9.5'' (that's around 2.3 metres tall)
Width: 144'' / 12' (That's a little over three and a half metres wide)
Brackets notwithstanding, that's a little more than HUGE! In fact, I just measured MY ENTIRE HOUSE and that thing would take up about three quarters of my floor space. If that ain't good enough for AT LEAST an EB, I don't know what is. It's a frikkin' tank! I mean, what self-respecting badass hasn't secretly wished to take one out? That's like... Wow. That's a little bigger than I expected it to be. Surely this would make for a really cool fight.