City of Heroes has cliches. How many? Check the master list.
By
Angryellow,
Posted on: 2010-04-10 18:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
It's an interesting site, but I wonder about how over-reaching some of the terminology is. The standards for the creation of new tropes seems pretty low. But, there are some interesting observations there.
It's a constant process of create and clean up. New tropes are run through the 'You Know That Thing Where...?' section, fixed up, given examples, or considered redundant and deleted. Once outside of the YKTTW, if they're too similar to other tropes or too vague or the like, they'll be put up for discussion in the Trope Talk section to be fixed, considered fine as is, or cutlisted.
-Recruited under Arachnos' "Equal-Opportunity Villainy" plan-
Just looking at the CoH page again, and I can't see why tropes are different from cliches? Like how aren't hey the same thing?
For example, isn't he "Deadly Doctor" one for Dr. Vahzilok a cliche and a trope?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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A cliche is something overused, trite, and expected. A trope is a convention or commonality between stories. So, a trope can easily become a cliche through overuse or misuse, but it is not inherently one, and it does not start as one.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Just looking at the CoH page again, and I can't see why tropes are different from cliches? Like how aren't hey the same thing?
For example, isn't he "Deadly Doctor" one for Dr. Vahzilok a cliche and a trope? |
I still say the classification of SCP-4445 is all wrong.
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But isn't that still the same? Like a convention is a cliche, because if it's been used enough to become a convention, then it must have been oversued?
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Originally Posted by FunstuffofDoom
A cliche is something overused, trite, and expected. A trope is a convention or commonality between stories. So, a trope can easily become a cliche through overuse or misuse, but it is not inherently one, and it does not start as one.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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As I understand it, it is more of a sliding scale. A cliche is the extreme end of overuse. A trope is something that has been used enough to be noticed, yet not enough to warrant the inherently negative connotation that calling it a cliche would.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But isn't that still the same? Like a convention is a cliche, because if it's been used enough to become a convention, then it must have been oversued?
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@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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That's not really a very clear line between them though - like who decides when something's overused, and when it's just a convention?
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Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
As I understand it, it is more of a sliding scale. A cliche is the extreme end of overuse. A trope is something that has been used enough to be noticed, yet not enough to warrant the inherently negative connotation that calling it a cliche would.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It doesn't appear to be a clear line because it isn't a clear line. No one person decides what is a cliche and what is just a trope, no more than one person decides what is conventional and what isn't.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's not really a very clear line between them though - like who decides when something's overused, and when it's just a convention?
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Needless to say, the set of tropes is much larger than the set of cliches.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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How can you be sure of that, if there's no clear line between them? |
Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
It doesn't appear to be a clear line because it isn't a clear line. No one person decides what is a cliche and what is just a trope, no more than one person decides what is conventional and what isn't.
Needless to say, the set of tropes is much larger than the set of cliches. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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By the definition of each side. All cliches are tropes, but not all tropes are cliches. You may argue about whether or not something falls into one category or another, but since there are no cliches that are not tropes, there will always be at least an equal amount of cliches to tropes, and generally more tropes than cliches.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
How can you be sure of that, if there's no clear line between them?
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@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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But if it's all just a matter of opinion, then all tropes will be cliches to some people |
Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
By the definition of each side. All cliches are tropes, but not all tropes are cliches. You may argue about whether or not something falls into one category or another, but since there are no cliches that are not tropes, there will always be at least an equal amount of cliches to tropes, and generally more tropes than cliches.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That's circular logic.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But isn't that still the same? Like a convention is a cliche, because if it's been used enough to become a convention, then it must have been oversued?
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But, more to the point, just because something is used does not make it overused.
Or, since the words 'trope' and 'convention' seem to be giving you a bit of a hiccup, let's put this in terms of cliches. Merriam Webster defines a cliche as
1 : a trite phrase or expression; also : the idea expressed by it
2 : a hackneyed theme, characterization, or situation
3 : something (as a menu item) that has become overly familiar or commonplace
Tropes, on the other hand, are just things multiple people have used. So, yes, "multiple people" can be a such a staggeringly high number that everyone and their child has seen the trope before in numerous permutations. If it's gotten to a point past expectancy, and is now thoroughly mocked, it's probably a cliche. Though, as noted previously, there is no definite line. We can only look at these things retrospectively and call them one or the other.
Another thought to keep in mind, is how broad and general some tropes can be. A guy walking around in black leather and fighting with a pair of katanas is completely cliched. But the concept of people fighting, in and of itself, is simply a trope, and is, I think, far too general to become trite and overused.
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That is a mathematical possibility, yes. I would posit it as unlikely to be the majority view, however.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But if it's all just a matter of opinion, then all tropes will be cliches to some people
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@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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You are certainly allowed to hold that opinion, as long as you acknowledge that what seems to be the majority of people do not share your view.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, I still think they're basically the same thing
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(PS: Also, as long as you realize that it is an opinion of yours, and not a fact).
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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I'll plead the 5th on that |
Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
You are certainly allowed to hold that opinion, as long as you acknowledge that what seems to be the majority of people do not share your view.
(PS: Also, as long as you realize that it is an opinion of yours, and not a fact). |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Ok, question time: I just looked up the 5th amendment and I'm now wondering what abuse of government authority in legal procedures has to do with anything. This is not intended to be inflammatory in any way, I just really don't get the reference.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'll plead the 5th on that
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@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
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Pleading the 5th is using your right to refuse to answer a question that could incriminate you |
Originally Posted by Morac_Ex_Machina
Ok, question time: I just looked up the 5th amendment and I'm now wondering what abuse of government authority in legal procedures has to do with anything. This is not intended to be inflammatory in any way, I just really don't get the reference.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I've been making references to TVTropes in my various MA review threads for a while now. The practice has (ahem) sparked discussion.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Which doesn't really make it that much less puzzling.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Pleading the 5th is using your right to refuse to answer a question that could incriminate you
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Read the post that I replied to when I first mentioned it |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Which doesn't really make it that much less puzzling.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Arguing with Golden Girl is so cliché.
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Essentially she doesn't want to admit to her statements being opinion or fact, because from what I can tell according to her mind at least, her opinion is fact. And trying to get her to explain her comment is just as futile. It makes sense where she said it because she's the one that said it. So we may as well just drop this and go back to TvTropes.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Which doesn't really make it that much less puzzling.
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For example, can anyone pick out tropes for the three Villain ATs that don't have one yet?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Yep, TvTropes has to be one of my favorite sites on the net. It's right up there with these forums and Facebook in terms of time-wasting potential. I've made a few edits on there, and have even wrote a few of the articles there from scratch.
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