Yeah it's roughly half the radius as warmth and nullify pain (25' for those two and 10' for twilight grasp), but twilight grasp is over twice as powerful a heal than warmth and NP: unenhanced it's 26.1% vs 11.7% for the two PBAoE heals in thermal and PD. I see it is as being a decent trade off: much more powerful heal for a smaller area of effect.
After all of these years it has been the same heal, why should it suddenly be changed when demon summoning is announced?
Edit: forget to mention that twilight grasp also applies a to-hit and regeneration debuff on the target as well as being a killer AE heal.
Quote:
So... they should take a set that's already way too powerful, and make it even more powerful?
|
Originally Posted by AzureHaze
I think now if a good time to (re)bring up the distastefully small radius of Dark Miasma. I lovingly raised my only lvl 50 hero, a dark/psy defender through the levels and I was always impressed by my ability to keep my team alive due to the wide covering area of twilight grasp. I tended to avoid Dark Miasma in the past in part to the small heal, but now with Demon summoning on the horizon I believe many others would echo the call to INCREASE DARK'S HEAL!!! Looking at the pain and thermal group heal radius they are the same as corruptor's, as they should be. Why hasn't Dark been brought up to the same standard these group heals share? Please devs, do use Dark Miasma MM's a favor.
|
Quote:
Ya as Person said, the main thing you're forgetting is that TG heals for twice that of other AoE heals. Considering how good TG and /dark are as a whole, I'd say it's fine. It certainly does the job on my Necro/Dark amicably. |
Originally Posted by AzureHaze
I think now if a good time to (re)bring up the distastefully small radius of Dark Miasma. I lovingly raised my only lvl 50 hero, a dark/psy defender through the levels and I was always impressed by my ability to keep my team alive due to the wide covering area of twilight grasp. I tended to avoid Dark Miasma in the past in part to the small heal, but now with Demon summoning on the horizon I believe many others would echo the call to INCREASE DARK'S HEAL!!! Looking at the pain and thermal group heal radius they are the same as corruptor's, as they should be. Why hasn't Dark been brought up to the same standard these group heals share? Please devs, do use Dark Miasma MM's a favor.
|
<QR>
No.
The only way it would happen is if the heal got nerfed. I am thinking to just above what Warmth and Nullify Pain get since it requires a target to use.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
Quote:
TG's extra heal has always been balanced by the fact that it requires a to hit roll, which means you have to have an attackable target nearby in order to use it, not by the reduced radius. Transfusion is the same way - it heals about the same as TG, twice that of radiant aura, nullify pain and healing aura and on everyone but a mastermind all of those heals have the a fairly large area, only TG is reduced on an MM. |
Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y
Ya as Person said, the main thing you're forgetting is that TG heals for twice that of other AoE heals. Considering how good TG and /dark are as a whole, I'd say it's fine. It certainly does the job on my Necro/Dark amicably.
|
It is interesting that the mastermind version of TG does heal slightly more than the corruptor and defender version although it is not MUCH more (26% for MM's, 23.5% for defenders and 22.3% for corruptors) but thats not enough to justify the MM version having half the radius of the defender/corruptor version.
Mind you, I am fairly sure the dev's are not going to make any changes at this point and as many folks have pointed out, even with the reduced radius on TG dark miasma is an awesome set for MM's, but the claim that the reduced radius is ok because TG heals more doesn't hold up.
What I find amusing is that the reduced radius doesn't prevent the mastermind from healing his pets as much as it prevents him from healing his groupmates - it is a lot easier to get your pets to cluster in a 10'r around you then an entire group of PC's.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Don't forget Dark also gets Fluffy, who comes with the wide area Defender version of Twilight Grasp (because he's the Defender pet, just on a longer recharge timer which is easily frankenslotted around). Combined with the most -ToHit of any MM secondary, a nice chunk of -Damage as well and more control than any set (even Trick Arrow, Dark kicks its **** in terms of quick recharging AOE control) Dark Miasma does not need a better heal.
If you're still having trouble keeping specific people alive (personally I just let em die and then rez their sorry behinds, auto-hit AOE stun FTW!) even with all of that then Aid Other is just 1 choice. That's what Pools are for, filling in any build gaps to suit your playstyle better (please give us alternative emotes for Pool Powers).
Dark Servant ALSO gets Twilight Grasp so if you're having trouble healing as DM (or making sure things aren't hitting your friends with all of your stacked -ToHit) something is wrong!
Why do the other sets keep the same radius as other ATs for their heals, but dark's changes?
It wasn't overpowered when non-MMs used it was it? If it is, then you better change those AT's TG radii as well.
There doesn't seem to be much of a tradeoff, just one straight up nerf. It's not as powerful as the other AT versions either, so that's not an excuse.
It's a good set yes, but it's a good set for a corruptor too despite what people may seem to think about it. It's not any more devastating in the hands of an MM (not any more than any other set is anyhow).
Keep in mind at one point there was no thermal nor pain for MMs and there is still no radiation. The reason is simple, the devs feared the ability to heal your pets. Well obviously that philosophy has changed, I'd like to see the radius unnerfed and even see rad brought to mm secondaries.
Quote:
Did it occur to you that TG's heal is balanced by BOTH a smaller radius AND a To-Hit check for MMs? |
Originally Posted by EricHough
TG's extra heal has always been balanced by the fact that it requires a to hit roll, which means you have to have an attackable target nearby in order to use it, not by the reduced radius. Transfusion is the same way - it heals about the same as TG, twice that of radiant aura, nullify pain and healing aura and on everyone but a mastermind all of those heals have the a fairly large area, only TG is reduced on an MM.
It is interesting that the mastermind version of TG does heal slightly more than the corruptor and defender version although it is not MUCH more (26% for MM's, 23.5% for defenders and 22.3% for corruptors) but thats not enough to justify the MM version having half the radius of the defender/corruptor version. Mind you, I am fairly sure the dev's are not going to make any changes at this point and as many folks have pointed out, even with the reduced radius on TG dark miasma is an awesome set for MM's, but the claim that the reduced radius is ok because TG heals more doesn't hold up. What I find amusing is that the reduced radius doesn't prevent the mastermind from healing his pets as much as it prevents him from healing his groupmates - it is a lot easier to get your pets to cluster in a 10'r around you then an entire group of PC's. |
*Edit* Red-Repping me for disagreeing with you is classy btw...
Anyway, if you honestly want this changed then you need to stop with the "I think x because of y personal experience" or "I think x because of y AT has z" arguments. Run tests, gather data and post with objectivity. Subjectivity =/= changes in game design. Once you can post arguments that start w/ "I know for a fact" and end with data parses, then you'll be on to something
Quote:
Dude, I don't rep anyone for anything, I don't even bother with the system, so keep your baseless accusations to yourself. I also didn't try to argue for increasing TG's radius, I just pointed out that your argument doesn't really hold up. I will add the following points:|
Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y
Did it occur to you that TG's heal is balanced by BOTH a smaller radius AND a To-Hit check for MMs?
*Edit* Red-Repping me for disagreeing with you is classy btw... Anyway, if you honestly want this changed then you need to stop with the "I think x because of y personal experience" or "I think x because of y AT has z" arguments. Run tests, gather data and post with objectivity. Subjectivity =/= changes in game design. Once you can post arguments that start w/ "I know for a fact" and end with data parses, then you'll be on to something |
1) No OTHER heal has been reduced in radius when ported to MM's
2) No other heals have been reduced at ALL when ported to MM's, although they do all have higher end costs as do all MM powers.
As I said IN MY ORIGINAL POST. I don't think the dev's are going to change things because I agree with most people in this thread - dark miasma is pretty awesome on MM's even with the reduced area of TG.
Personally, I believe that TG was reduced in radius because it was the first ever AE heal given to MM's and the developers where not sure how powerful it would be, so they added a reduced radius on top of the other reductions in power (increased end cost, reduced buff levels, etc) that an MM gets. Later on, when they looked at porting other heals they realized that MM's where already taking enough of a hit so they didn't reduce the radius at all - but since they don't change existing powers without serious evidence that they are underpowered, TG has been left alone.
I will be very curious to see what happens if/when kinetics is ported to MM's. If transfusion is left with the normal radius that will shred any arguement for leaving TG with the current nerfed radius.
EDIT: I don't see anything in my first post that was opinion and not data. All I did was post facts about the powers and discuss them, so I don't see where you get off attacking me for posting 'opinions' to support an arguement that I wasn't even making.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Sorry I should have clarified; the first part of my post was directed at you (in response to what I quoted), after the edit it was directed at the other people in the thread arguing for this change (and whoever Red-Repped me, as it happened after I posted in this thread). I was using "you" as a collective you in that context, mea culpa.
Regardless the argument that "other heals didn't have their radius reduced" is flawed. Other sets aren't /dark. They don't have the amazing aoe debuffs, control, and extra pet, along with an incredible AoE heal and arguably the best res in the game. Clearly the Devs decided that in order to balance TG for MMs, both the To-Hit check and a radius reduction were required. If you don't like it post in the suggestion forums with some hard proof to back up your claim that it is necessary to bring /dark up to par with other sets. Good luck with that.
I agree with eric and nox. No other set has had their radius nerfed. Having another melee set added I think would be fair enough to help Dark MM's do a better job of keeping their pets alive as well, if not more importantly to be able to keep their teammates alive.
As for collecting hard data, I will have to see if there is software out there that can still keep track of those stats, but I think it would defeat the purpose of an open forum if effecting change requires a pc profiency that most of the users may not have.
Lvl 50's: Twilight Projections-Dark/Psychic Defender- Justice,
Mad-Scientist -Bot/Poison MM- Freedom,
Ogun Ajala -Fire/Shield Scrapper - Virtue,
Make You Smile -Thugs/Dark - Virtue
Kyuji Warrior - Fire/Trick Arrow Corruptor - Virtue
Quote:
Ok here's the thing, you guys keep citing how "other sets didn't have their radius nerfed." The problem is other sets' AoE heals heal for less than half that of TG. Other sets don't have a pet that *also* spams TG (which doesn't have a nerfed radius, and also uses control powers and has a massive passive To-Hit debuff). |
Originally Posted by AzureHaze
I agree with eric and nox. No other set has had their radius nerfed. Having another melee set added I think would be fair enough to help Dark MM's do a better job of keeping their pets alive as well, if not more importantly to be able to keep their teammates alive.
As for collecting hard data, I will have to see if there is software out there that can still keep track of those stats, but I think it would defeat the purpose of an open forum if effecting change requires a pc profiency that most of the users may not have. |
When balancing sets you can't look at single powers in a vacuum, you have to look at the set as a whole. If TG's radius was buffed, you would be able to reduce mobs To-Hit to practically nothing (Darkest Night+Fluffy+TG), keep whole spawns feared (Fearsome Stare), and also heal a red-barred party to full in just a few heals (TG+Fluffy). The To-Hit check is not enough (nor is it that hard to get around if you just slot properly), it needs that radius reduction on TG to keep the set from being OP. Even with that, a lot of people have argued that /Dark is still OP.
If you want something changed then the burden of proof falls on you, not the people arguing against you. That's why I said you need to come up with some data demonstrating /Dark's lack of viability. If you want to use the other secondaries as your metric with which to compare the relative strength of /Dark, then you need to compare the entire set vs /Dark, not just the AoE heals.
Dark is a very powerful debuff set with some control mixed in, I'm just happy it can heal at all, much less having a powerful(if small) heal with a decent debuff on the side.
Quote:
This basically. Comparing a power in one set to another and using that as proof it needs changing is no way to go about balancing sets. They're sets for a reason.|
Originally Posted by D4nnYb0Y
Ok here's the thing, you guys keep citing how "other sets didn't have their radius nerfed." The problem is other sets' AoE heals heal for less than half that of TG. Other sets don't have a pet that *also* spams TG (which doesn't have a nerfed radius, and also uses control powers and has a massive passive To-Hit debuff).
When balancing sets you can't look at single powers in a vacuum, you have to look at the set as a whole. If TG's radius was buffed, you would be able to reduce mobs To-Hit to practically nothing (Darkest Night+Fluffy+TG), keep whole spawns feared (Fearsome Stare), and also heal a red-barred party to full in just a few heals (TG+Fluffy). The To-Hit check is not enough (nor is it that hard to get around if you just slot properly), it needs that radius reduction on TG to keep the set from being OP. Even with that, a lot of people have argued that /Dark is still OP. If you want something changed then the burden of proof falls on you, not the people arguing against you. That's why I said you need to come up with some data demonstrating /Dark's lack of viability. If you want to use the other secondaries as your metric with which to compare the relative strength of /Dark, then you need to compare the entire set vs /Dark, not just the AoE heals. |
Dark doesn't need a buff, it's a very, very good set indeed for a MM.
Except the "other sets" are also shared directly with Corruptors. And the MM version of Thermal and Pain are comparable to the Corruptor version - they heal for slightly less, and the debuffs are sllightly weaker. Exactly what would be expected given the default AT modifiers. Dark Miasma is shared with Corruptors, including the un-nerfed Healing Shadow. The comparison is that, of the power sets that are shared by both ATs, only Dark Miasma is "balanced" like this.
Quote:
Is there some rule that says all sets must be balanced (<---used as verb) exactly the same? The Devs may view the /Dark set as stronger than /Thermal and /Pain, and thus needed to be nerfed further when given to MMs. Send a PM to a Red_Name, maybe they'll reveal their line of reasoning. /shrugs
|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Except the "other sets" are also shared directly with Corruptors. And the MM version of Thermal and Pain are comparable to the Corruptor version - they heal for slightly less, and the debuffs are sllightly weaker. Exactly what would be expected given the default AT modifiers. Dark Miasma is shared with Corruptors, including the un-nerfed Healing Shadow. The comparison is that, of the power sets that are shared by both ATs, only Dark Miasma is "balanced" like this.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Except the "other sets" are also shared directly with Corruptors. And the MM version of Thermal and Pain are comparable to the Corruptor version - they heal for slightly less, and the debuffs are sllightly weaker. Exactly what would be expected given the default AT modifiers. Dark Miasma is shared with Corruptors, including the un-nerfed Healing Shadow. The comparison is that, of the power sets that are shared by both ATs, only Dark Miasma is "balanced" like this.
|
Actually no, if you look at a Dominators Earth Assault set there's a few powers there that are weaker than other equivalents, for the same reasons. Sets are balanced as sets for a specific AT. If you compare Controllers to Defenders the same process occured with placeable pseudo-pets.
Saying Thermals debuffs are "slightly" weaker than Darks is just plain wrong as well. Not only are darks far stronger, it gets the majority of them by level 20 (except Fluffy of course, who is a bit of an aberration really. MMs should never have gotten the Defender version of him, although remember at the time IOs didn't exist so the MM drawback of him not being perma was more important)
If Twilight Grasp was changed then I'd bet money to doughnuts that Fluffy would undergo a pass as well to reflect the fact that with a bit of Frankenslotting he's basically as good as the Defender version.
Not the kind of responses I thought I may get, but respected all the same. At the very least it would be great to have even a 5 foot radius increase. I understand the comparison btw other sets and the proficiency of dark but I still wish the group heal was a little wider.
Lvl 50's: Twilight Projections-Dark/Psychic Defender- Justice,
Mad-Scientist -Bot/Poison MM- Freedom,
Ogun Ajala -Fire/Shield Scrapper - Virtue,
Make You Smile -Thugs/Dark - Virtue
Kyuji Warrior - Fire/Trick Arrow Corruptor - Virtue
That's the main reason I've yet to get a /dark mastermind too high. Low levels tend to rely on the heal too much, and it's inadequate without other damage mitigation.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Quote:
I found the opposite... I set everyone to attack 1 target, then run into the middle of the fight and spam heals. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
That's the main reason I've yet to get a /dark mastermind too high. Low levels tend to rely on the heal too much, and it's inadequate without other damage mitigation.
|
6-slot it as soon as you can, and frankenslot with cheap low level stuff for acc and recharge, then for heal.
I've got a lowbie /kin and I'm really missing the self-centered AOE heal.
/dark gets strong fairly early - once you get Fearsome Stare you're an unstoppable freight train. Hint - frankenlsot for range.
Wouldn't slotting for range increase the radius as well as the target distance?
Quote:
No, slotting TG for range increases how far the enemy can be from you to heal.|
Originally Posted by beyeajus
Wouldn't slotting for range increase the radius as well as the target distance?
|
I do love dark miasma, and I know all too well how powerful it gets by level 26 on a defender. However I also know that until said defender gets things like howling twilight and darkest night they rely on the heal. And sadly, masterminds don't get the really yummy powers till later then defenders.
I last tried a necro/dark mastermind. And I found the zombies kept moving out of the heal radius JUST as it went off. Grr.
EDIT: Of course on my defender, I see just as many PLAYERS do the same thing with the larger heal radius.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I think now if a good time to (re)bring up the distastefully small radius of Dark Miasma. I lovingly raised my only lvl 50 hero, a dark/psy defender through the levels and I was always impressed by my ability to keep my team alive due to the wide covering area of twilight grasp. I tended to avoid Dark Miasma in the past in part to the small heal, but now with Demon summoning on the horizon I believe many others would echo the call to INCREASE DARK'S HEAL!!! Looking at the pain and thermal group heal radius they are the same as corruptor's, as they should be. Why hasn't Dark been brought up to the same standard these group heals share? Please devs, do use Dark Miasma MM's a favor.
Lvl 50's: Twilight Projections-Dark/Psychic Defender- Justice,
Mad-Scientist -Bot/Poison MM- Freedom,
Ogun Ajala -Fire/Shield Scrapper - Virtue,
Make You Smile -Thugs/Dark - Virtue
Kyuji Warrior - Fire/Trick Arrow Corruptor - Virtue