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People cite Defender and Corruptor versions not just because their version of Dark Miasma is different, but because their versions of the other wide-area-heal sets (which Dark is presumably [intended to be] balanced with) are not. If the bodyguard interaction makes wide area heals problematic for MMs, then wouldn't Thermal and Pain also need looked at?|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
People keep citing Defender and Corrupter versions, but MMs are different, AOEs interact differently for them because of how BG mode works.
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Also if making Dark Servant into a healbot were truly to make Dark Miasma overpowered, people would be doing that already instead of using it for the debuffs. Unless the current non-scaled debuffs make it even *more* overpowered and that's why people don't want it brought into line.
I really doubt that the aberrant Tar Patch and Dark Servant on Masterminds are there deliberately as part of a delicate balance with reduced-area Twilight Grasp. I'm pretty sure they are oversights that have never been corrected, along with all the other cross-AT pet/pseudo pet issues out there. And whether they're deliberate or not, I don't think they actually provide balance - I think they make Dark Miasma stronger for MMs than the smaller heal radius makes it weaker.
Why are you comparing Dark Miasma on a MM to a Dark Miasma on a Corrupter/Defender?
I can see comparing such things on a Corr/Def, due to them being so similar in playstyle (note: that's my opinion anyways...others may disagree)...but a MM plays totally different.
Dark Miasma is already considered one of the best secondaries to pair with a MM as it is as well.
Not saying this doesn't mean I'm against an increase in AOE healing, but I do think it needs to be seen in a different light.
With all the -tohit DM brings to a MM's arsenal, perhaps they think the MM version needs a smaller radius to balance it out due to having all the pets, and even more so now that there's body guard mode (which wasn't around when MMs were introduced).
Those other sets with an AOE heal, lack -tohit.
Howling twilight brings -TOHIT (in Fearsome Stare and DN) & Defense (40ft radius) which stack nicely together and -DMG. Not to mention a pet that can heal, ontop of your own heal, and an auto hit AOE stun.
Thermal gives Resist Shields and -DMG (to SINGLE TARGET).
Pain is all about healing back the hits taken.
Force Field is just about avoidance.
And Trap just has it's +Regen that doesn't even follow, so it has to be cast on the move if you want to keep it up.
If they had made the radius smaller for Corrs, than Defenders, I could see a problem. But for MMs, I really can't see the problem.
Admittedly, I've never gotten a MM to 50 (yet), and my highest was around 22-24, but those with DM as a secondary, I never found the 10ft radius of DM to be my problem with pairing it with MMs.
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If your logic is that an MM plays differently and so the radius should be smaller, then the same goes for Pain and Thermal. It was believed before CoV was released that the ability to heal pets in general was overpowering. No rad, no thermal, and small radius on TG.
But the times have changed, it's just inconsistent now.
Without reading the rest...
The heal is better then any other
It has a very good debuff effect
Limited by the fact a target is needed and an acc check
Don't buff it! It will become overpowered.
btw.. This morning soloed Back Alley Brawler on a flashback set on 8 members using my Necro/Dark Miasma main.
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My /Traps is more powerful than my /Dark (both are 50). The Traps has all her pets soft-capped; the /Dark does not. The /Traps uses Aid Other to heal pets; the /Dark tries to run up next to injured pets and fire off a Twilight Grasp, hoping it will hit and the pet will stay put long enough for the animation to fire.
I really doubt making the Mastermind version of Twilight Grasp have the proper radius would change the fact that my /Traps mastermind is significantly more powerful than my /Dark mastermind.
I think the absolute last thing you want is a GM taking a look at Dark Miasma.
Anyway it's not unheard of for sets to gain or lose attributes when crossing ATs. Sometimes entire powers are replaced.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
I think in part it IS the archtype modifiers causing the small radius. I noticed a /dark corrupter has a smaller heal radius for tg then a defender. Similarly I noticed a corrupter has a smaller radius for darkest night or the rad debuffs then a defender, and a mastermind gets smaller radius for the debuffs still.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Ah, but the heal radius for twilight gasp would appear to be affected by AT modifiers to begin with. Notice that corrupters have a smaller radius then defenders for it. Can't say for controllers, they don't have the set. If it's a matter of the AT modifier reducing the heal radius, the only fix might be to raise the AT modifier. Which would not just affect that one power.
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One thing I didn't see mentioned is that, unlike the other AoE heals available to Masterminds, Twilight Grasp is a pseudopet. Defenders, Corruptors, Dark Servant, and Yanamari summon Pets.Twilight. Masterminds summon Pets.MMTwilight. In fact, the closest equivalent to Twilight Grasp that's available to MMs is Triage Beacon (AoE +Regen; powered by a pseudopet; Masterminds, Corruptors, and Defenders all summon Pets.Traps.Triage_Beacon).
Honestly, I don't think Dark Miasma players should be so concerned about TG until and unless Masterminds are given Kinetics, and Transfusion gets to keep its radius. (And this is speaking as a player whose first 50, main villain, and main badger is a Thugs/Dark.) I'm all for fixing problems with MMs, especially my beloved Dark Miasma -- IIRC I'm the one who pointed out to Castle that the MM version of Shadow Fall (and the MM version alone) debuffs the caster's JumpSpeed (but not anyone else affected by it); it no longer does. But TG's radius isn't something to fight for, unless Transfusion isn't given the same treatment.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
My /Traps is more powerful than my /Dark (both are 50). The Traps has all her pets soft-capped; the /Dark does not. The /Traps uses Aid Other to heal pets; the /Dark tries to run up next to injured pets and fire off a Twilight Grasp, hoping it will hit and the pet will stay put long enough for the animation to fire.
I really doubt making the Mastermind version of Twilight Grasp have the proper radius would change the fact that my /Traps mastermind is significantly more powerful than my /Dark mastermind. |
And your /dark mastermind floors the ACC of pretty much everything except an AV. So not soft capping def doesn't matter. The pet alone gives -30% to their tohit. That's in and of it's self equal to a SR scrapper running Single Origin enhancements. And this is unslotted for to-hit debuff. Between Darkest Night, Shadow Fall, and Fearsome Stare enemies will be having extreme trouble hitting too. And that's assuming no slots devoted to tohit debuff and def buff. Slot them for it, and they will floor to-hit eather.
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On paper. -to hit is, of course, affected by resistance (though I know that's negligible for anything but an AV), and by area (things outside Darkest Night and Chill of the Night, or outside the cone of a delivered Fearsome Stare all avoid the -to hit altogether). Defence applies to all things, regardless of outside modifiers. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
And your /dark mastermind floors the ACC of pretty much everything except an AV. So not soft capping def doesn't matter. The pet alone gives -30% to their tohit. That's in and of it's self equal to a SR scrapper running Single Origin enhancements. And this is unslotted for to-hit debuff. Between Darkest Night, Shadow Fall, and Fearsome Stare enemies will be having extreme trouble hitting too. And that's assuming no slots devoted to tohit debuff and def buff. Slot them for it, and they will floor to-hit eather.
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But this isn't an "on paper" comparison. This is in actual play. My /Traps MM tackles +1/x8 content without much trouble. The /Dark one sometimes struggles with x5 or more content.
A key difference between the two is mez protection; the /Traps FFG grants some, while nothing in /Dark does.
Corruptor: 20ft radius
Defender: 20ft radius
(and for completeness, Mastermind: 10ft radius)
The acknowledgements have not come with any argument as to why MM's need a *different* balance to their set than Corruptors or Defenders (i.e. smaller heal but stronger Patch&Servant). All I see is an aversion to the weaker "regular" version of Dark Miasma (wider heal but weaker Patch&Servant), nothing as to why it'd be less balanced as a set.
Hey, I do too, it makes my MM stronger than it would be with the regular version of Dark Miasma. But I'm not talking about what I enjoy, I'm talking about what's balanced. And I don't believe this is as balanced as a normal (AT modifiers and all) version of Dark Miasma would be.
I've been thinking about this more and I'm fairly certain that a set with your new wide area heal and a healbot (which is what DS would most likely become if you changed him, rather than what he is now which is a debuff-bot people tend to summon in the middle of a spawn) would be pretty overpowered, especially for certain sets (Robots, Thugs and Merc namely).
People keep citing Defender and Corrupter versions, but MMs are different, AOEs interact differently for them because of how BG mode works.*
Giving a MM secondary *two* large, ranged (remember DS will stay at range unless wrangled), debuffing AOE heals (which need to hit but heal for much more than their non-ToHit versions) doesn't seem to be a good idea for an AT for which AOEs are a force multplier. Especially when you consider what else Dark brings to the table.