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But the game is not balanced around IOs, so that would go against their other philosophy.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
If Twilight Grasp was changed then I'd bet money to doughnuts that Fluffy would undergo a pass as well to reflect the fact that with a bit of Frankenslotting he's basically as good as the Defender version.
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I don't understand the opposition.
The sets are balanced as sets. They are then affected with AT modifiers.
Saying TG should have a lower radius because it was ported really doesnt make much sense. Then so should thermal and pain by that logic. The disparity in heals between thermal and pain and TG are similar disparities if I was a Corr as well. TG would heal more because I require a target.... thats its drawback... to port it over and give it a tiny radius... As for the -hit component... transfusion has -4 endurance and -400 regen... its a side effect of the power pool, the -hit is darks bonus.
It was a decision that was made when CoV came out... it needs to be re-evaluated now that we have two other area heals that DONT require a target.
Honestly I could care less, as someone pointed out, it would benefit my teammates more than my pets... as my pets LISTEN to me. I still don't have the macro codes to make the teammates do what they should be.
It affects me Nil, but I can see the argument to increase it, I don't see the argument to not.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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The fact it's a really small radius means that if the pet moves at all while the heal is animating, you likely missed healing your pet. Time and again I'd go to heal my zombies, and they would decide to move five feet to hit something else... thus not getting the heal. When it hits the pets though, they are HEALED.|
Originally Posted by beyeajus
thanks for clarifying that
 I have a bot/DM mm, and Dark is definitely my fave mm secondary, but I never had a problem with it myself, but then again, from reading Enigma's post, the bots were always in BG mode so they always were close enough for the healz. It's an awesome heal, nonetheless. Is the problem the heal not hitting the pets due to distance? Or maybe some practice is needed with keeping the pets close? What pets are you using? Also, the heal IS powerful, when slotted. My mm cranks out roughly 408 HP per shot. not bad at all. |
I wouldn't even try it with ninjas personally. They are too freaking spaztic. Ranged pets I guess would work better. They like standing in place more often then not. Of course that excludes the arsonist from Thugs. he thinks he's a boxer frequently.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Originally Posted by Wassabi
But the game is not balanced around IOs, so that would go against their other philosophy.
I don't understand the opposition. The sets are balanced as sets. They are then affected with AT modifiers. Saying TG should have a lower radius because it was ported really doesnt make much sense. Then so should thermal and pain by that logic. The disparity in heals between thermal and pain and TG are similar disparities if I was a Corr as well. TG would heal more because I require a target.... thats its drawback... to port it over and give it a tiny radius... As for the -hit component... transfusion has -4 endurance and -400 regen... its a side effect of the power pool, the -hit is darks bonus. It was a decision that was made when CoV came out... it needs to be re-evaluated now that we have two other area heals that DONT require a target. Honestly I could care less, as someone pointed out, it would benefit my teammates more than my pets... as my pets LISTEN to me. I still don't have the macro codes to make the teammates do what they should be. It affects me Nil, but I can see the argument to increase it, I don't see the argument to not. |
I think in part it IS the archtype modifiers causing the small radius. I noticed a /dark corrupter has a smaller heal radius for tg then a defender. Similarly I noticed a corrupter has a smaller radius for darkest night or the rad debuffs then a defender, and a mastermind gets smaller radius for the debuffs still.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Hmm,I can see arguements for and against that thinking... and I can't decide which I would argue...
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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Alright, cut TG's heal in half and it can have the same radius as /Thermal and /Pain's AoE heal.|
Originally Posted by Wassabi
But the game is not balanced around IOs, so that would go against their other philosophy.
I don't understand the opposition. The sets are balanced as sets. They are then affected with AT modifiers. Saying TG should have a lower radius because it was ported really doesnt make much sense. Then so should thermal and pain by that logic. The disparity in heals between thermal and pain and TG are similar disparities if I was a Corr as well. TG would heal more because I require a target.... thats its drawback... to port it over and give it a tiny radius... As for the -hit component... transfusion has -4 endurance and -400 regen... its a side effect of the power pool, the -hit is darks bonus. It was a decision that was made when CoV came out... it needs to be re-evaluated now that we have two other area heals that DONT require a target. Honestly I could care less, as someone pointed out, it would benefit my teammates more than my pets... as my pets LISTEN to me. I still don't have the macro codes to make the teammates do what they should be. It affects me Nil, but I can see the argument to increase it, I don't see the argument to not. |
*Edit* Also TG debuffs damage and regen in addition to hit.
*Edit the 2nd* Why am I opposed to this? I don't want to see the set nerfed in other areas to make the heal bigger, because as the set performs perfectly fine (better than most actually) atm, it WILL be nerfed to compensate for a buff to TG.
From what I understand, when masterminds were first implemented, the devs simply shrunk the radius on Twilight Grasp as an alternative to re-creating a new /dark power to replace it. Mind you, Thermal and PainD for masterminds didn't even exist as an option for masterminds for a long time. So my understanding was, it was "okay" from a dev POV to keep an AOE heal for a MM as long as it required a to-hit check *and* had a smaller radius
Time has now passed, and MMs have three options for AOE healing today. I think with the new environment they should consider changing TG radius back to normal since the other two AOE heals have a normal radius too. The to-hit check tradeoff should naturally remain unchanged, to balance. Nerfing the radius imo is no longer justified with present alternatives available
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Why is it that people keep ignoring the fact that TG heals for more than double (26.1% vs 11.7%) that of /Thermal and /Pain's AoE heals? Not to mention the fact that TG also debuffs hit, damage, and most importantly regen which is one of the reasons that /Dark MMs are so good at soloing AVs.|
Originally Posted by chriz2ferx
From what I understand, when masterminds were first implemented, the devs simply shrunk the radius on Twilight Grasp as an alternative to re-creating a new /dark power to replace it. Mind you, Thermal and PainD for masterminds didn't even exist as an option for masterminds for a long time. So my understanding was, it was "okay" from a dev POV to keep an AOE heal for a MM as long as it required a to-hit check *and* had a smaller radius
Time has now passed, and MMs have three options for AOE healing today. I think with the new environment they should consider changing TG radius back to normal since the other two AOE heals have a normal radius too. The to-hit check tradeoff should naturally remain unchanged, to balance. Nerfing the radius imo is no longer justified with present alternatives available |
(Before somebody shouts out "but /Thermal and /Pain have other heals!", I will say this: See what happens when you compare individual powers in a vacuum? Start comparing the whole sets. You need to (somehow) prove that /Dark isn't viable if you want to get the radius buffed. If you can't prove that, then you need to start describing ways in which it can be nerfed to compensate for the buff you're calling for. That's how balance works, it's give and take.)
Everyone's mileage and opinion varies, which I respect completely
To me, the to-hit check is a significant trade-off already. I can't heal my henchmen out of combat. Also in combat, I have at least a 5% chance the heal will miss. I accept that and am used to it, as I have Dark/ defenders and /Dark corruptors and /Dark masterminds. I suppose to me, it's a matter of seeing alternatives available, and that this one mechanic (radius) is *possibly* out-of-date and possibly deserves revisiting
Even if they never change it, I will always love my two /Dark MMs and will continue to play them. In short, I can see why the would want to leave TG for MM's alone, or change it. Just wanted to give my two cents
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Ok, then the same should be applied to the other Dark powers. Tar Patch and Dark Servant should be given the same Recharge and End costs as Corrupters and Defender versions and they should be cloned to new pets and have their debuff values dropped to MM levels rather than Defender ones. Tar Patch would drop to from 30% to 22.5 Resist debuff (got that figure from comparing Acid Arrows difference between the 3 sets, since Acid Arrow drops so should Tar Patch). Dark Servant would drop from a 30% to-hit debuff to 18% and his heal would become equal to a MMs, so drops from 238 to 209.|
Originally Posted by Wassabi
But the game is not balanced around IOs, so that would go against their other philosophy.
I don't understand the opposition. The sets are balanced as sets. They are then affected with AT modifiers. |
This would be the most correct way of going about things. It would also be rather a severe drop to the set overall in terms of effectiveness, at least for my Dark MM.
I don't want Twilight Grasp to be buffed because then I'd most likely lose those excellent versions of two of the key powers in the set in the name of balance.
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ahhh my bad my bad, meant those questions for the OP, you explained that you use melee types. I have a feeling OP might too.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
The fact it's a really small radius means that if the pet moves at all while the heal is animating, you likely missed healing your pet. Time and again I'd go to heal my zombies, and they would decide to move five feet to hit something else... thus not getting the heal. When it hits the pets though, they are HEALED.
I wouldn't even try it with ninjas personally. They are too freaking spaztic. Ranged pets I guess would work better. They like standing in place more often then not. Of course that excludes the arsonist from Thugs. he thinks he's a boxer frequently. |
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
that excludes the arsonist from Thugs. he thinks he's a boxer frequently.
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I swear I've seen him try and shove the Bruiser out of the way to get at the boss, lol
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I don't know where you are getting your numbers but except for Twilight grasp, pretty much all AE buffs/debuffs/heals have the same radius whatever the AT. |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
I think in part it IS the archtype modifiers causing the small radius. I noticed a /dark corrupter has a smaller heal radius for tg then a defender. Similarly I noticed a corrupter has a smaller radius for darkest night or the rad debuffs then a defender, and a mastermind gets smaller radius for the debuffs still.
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Taking numbers from mids, here are some selected AE buffs, debuffs and heals (?? means that AT doesn't get the listed powerset):
Code:
Def Con Corr MM Twilight Grasp 25 ?? 20 10 Darkest night 25 ?? 25 25 Radiant Aura 25 25 25 ?? Rad. Infection 15 15 15 ?? Enervating F. 15 15 15 ?? Nullify Pain ?? ?? 25 25 Soothing Aura/ Suppress Pain ?? ?? 15 15 World of Pain ?? ?? 35 35 Anguishing Cry ?? ?? 25 25 Warmth ?? 25 25 25 Transfusion 20 20 20 ??
Looking at the numbers I think it is pretty clear that the dev's made a definite exception for masterminds twilight grasp. I don't believe that a 20' radius on TG would overpower dark miasma for MM's - as I pointed out in my last post, the real problem with the 10' radius is hitting your groupmates, not your pets (except for the poor ninja's) so increasing the radius is just going to make it more group friendly.
However, as D4nnYb0Y has noted, barring actual in game numbers that shows dark miasma is underperforming compared to other MM secondaries, there is no way the dev's are going to change Twilight grasp at this late a date. They are very firm about not changing things unless they are very broken, as opposed to being just slightly annoying.
However, arguing that TG should have a smaller radius because it heals more or because MM's get smaller radii on their AE powers is clearly faulty. If dark miasma where just now being ported to MM's I suspect we would have a good case for leaving TG with a 20' radius but as a change long after the fact it is going to take a lot more.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
No real numbers, just observations. For some reason Dark Miasma and Rad seem to have smaller aoe radius for their toggle debuffs on a corrupter then a defender. Twilight Gasp though is provable to be smaller depending on the AT for it's heal radius. That could very well be affected by AT modifiers. If so, increasing the heal radius would require changing mastermind AT modifiers, thus would affect more then just heal radius.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Btw, I am currently leveling up a thugs/dark and if he didn't have pure fire damage I would be very frustrated with my arsonist who always runs away from the group. And yes I have also played a necro/dark mm that I deleted at 22 because the small radius was very frustrating to work with.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
The fact it's a really small radius means that if the pet moves at all while the heal is animating, you likely missed healing your pet. Time and again I'd go to heal my zombies, and they would decide to move five feet to hit something else... thus not getting the heal. When it hits the pets though, they are HEALED.
I wouldn't even try it with ninjas personally. They are too freaking spaztic. Ranged pets I guess would work better. They like standing in place more often then not. Of course that excludes the arsonist from Thugs. he thinks he's a boxer frequently. |
Do I still love the fear cone? Of course! Would I want to see the other powers in the set nerfed? Of course not! But at least I've generated debate on this, I'm not alone, and I hope the devs take a wee little notice of something many people have lived with.
As someone suggested earlier maybe I will pose this question in the "suggestions" thread. It would be nice at least to have an official statement as to why the devs made the radius they way they did and why they potentially may not change it.
Lvl 50's: Twilight Projections-Dark/Psychic Defender- Justice,
Mad-Scientist -Bot/Poison MM- Freedom,
Ogun Ajala -Fire/Shield Scrapper - Virtue,
Make You Smile -Thugs/Dark - Virtue
Kyuji Warrior - Fire/Trick Arrow Corruptor - Virtue
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I don't get the melee minion problem. I leveled a Necro/Dark to the mid 30's and never had any issues with TG (and this was before BG mode). Though I also didn't let my Zombies and Grave Knights run all over the place (not saying that you do necessarily). Perhaps the people having problems healing their pets need to keep them on a tighter leash? /shrugs|
Originally Posted by AzureHaze
Btw, I am currently leveling up a thugs/dark and if he didn't have pure fire damage I would be very frustrated with my arsonist who always runs away from the group. And yes I have also played a necro/dark mm that I deleted at 22 because the small radius was very frustrating to work with.
Do I still love the fear cone? Of course! Would I want to see the other powers in the set nerfed? Of course not! But at least I've generated debate on this, I'm not alone, and I hope the devs take a wee little notice of something many people have lived with. As someone suggested earlier maybe I will pose this question in the "suggestions" thread. It would be nice at least to have an official statement as to why the devs made the radius they way they did and why they potentially may not change it. |
I dunno, I think if you're going to lobby to increase TG's radius it should be because healing teams is annoying with it (which I'll fully admit it is, but a team shouldn't be relying on your heals anyway as /Dark is primarily a debuff/control set that happens to have a heal for good measure (like /Storm has 02 Boost)).
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But the toggle debuffs DON'T have smaller radii for corruptors- or at least are not supposed to according to the real numbers in game. If you can prove they have smaller radii then thats a BUG, not the result of AT modifiers.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
No real numbers, just observations. For some reason Dark Miasma and Rad seem to have smaller aoe radius for their toggle debuffs on a corrupter then a defender. Twilight Gasp though is provable to be smaller depending on the AT for it's heal radius. That could very well be affected by AT modifiers. If so, increasing the heal radius would require changing mastermind AT modifiers, thus would affect more then just heal radius.
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Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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As I said, just seems like it affects fewer targets due to smaller radius. But then, since they toned down the graphics on the toggle debuffs it's hard to tell what all it's affecting.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
But the toggle debuffs DON'T have smaller radii for corruptors- or at least are not supposed to according to the real numbers in game. If you can prove they have smaller radii then thats a BUG, not the result of AT modifiers.
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"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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This.|
Originally Posted by chriz2ferx
From what I understand, when masterminds were first implemented, the devs simply shrunk the radius on Twilight Grasp as an alternative to re-creating a new /dark power to replace it. Mind you, Thermal and PainD for masterminds didn't even exist as an option for masterminds for a long time. So my understanding was, it was "okay" from a dev POV to keep an AOE heal for a MM as long as it required a to-hit check *and* had a smaller radius
Time has now passed, and MMs have three options for AOE healing today. I think with the new environment they should consider changing TG radius back to normal since the other two AOE heals have a normal radius too. The to-hit check tradeoff should naturally remain unchanged, to balance. Nerfing the radius imo is no longer justified with present alternatives available |
The trade off for being twice the heal than pains and thermals is it has a to hit check. Don't overlook that. You know its a pain when it misses.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
In principle I agree that MM's Twilight Grasp should have the same radius as Corruptors and Defenders. My reasoning is much the same as others: that if Dark is too far ahead of other sets (Thermal, Pain) in terms of power/effectiveness to have the larger heal radius on an MM, then it is also too far ahead of other sets (Thermal, Pain, Empathy, Radiation) to have the larger heal radius on Corruptors or Defenders. (or if you look at it the other way, if it's balanced compared to other pbaoe-healing sets with the large radius on Cor/Def, it's balanced with the large radius on MM)
In short, I can't see how it is necessary for MM's to have a different radius than Corruptors or Defenders for balance. Or rather, I can't see how it's necessary for MM's to have a different radius *only* for Dark.
Balance to me would be one of the following:
1) MM's have the normal (large) radius on Twilight Grasp.
2) MM's Thermal and Pain sets also have the small radius on their PBAoE heals.
3) Defenders and Corruptors also have the small radius on Twilight Grasp.
If that means the inconsistencies in other areas like using the wrong values for Dark Servant or Tar Patch are also addressed, so be it - it's more likely the set would be balanced with the other MM secondaries that way than it is to muddle around with stronger Tar & Servant than it should have but weaker Grasp than it should have, and hope those balance out.
It sounds to me like some of the arguments for keeping things as they are - the ones that say they're worried it'd mean nerfs to those other inconsistent areas - aren't really arguments for balance, they're arguments to stay slightly more powerful than they know they're meant to be (i.e. they value the superior Tar & Servant more than they'd value the normal Grasp).
All that said, I don't *really* care whether it's changed or stays the same, nor do I actually expect it to change. As it is it's probably a stronger set than it should be for MMs (so yay if you use that set, and I do), and if it were brought in line I'd have marginally less frustration when used in teams or with melee pets (I swear the Zombie AI is tied directly to my Twilight Grasp icon) while it'd still remain a very strong set for MMs. Either way you can be thankful it's not the Dark Miasma the game launched with 
Ah, but the heal radius for twilight gasp would appear to be affected by AT modifiers to begin with. Notice that corrupters have a smaller radius then defenders for it. Can't say for controllers, they don't have the set. If it's a matter of the AT modifier reducing the heal radius, the only fix might be to raise the AT modifier. Which would not just affect that one power.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
but controllers do get Kinetics... I dont notice a reduction in area over a defender... that would be affected by your logic.
Wassabi Grav/Kin 50 (before badges/accolades were in game) Pinnacle
Miss Command Bots/Traps 50 Justice
*others left off due to space issues
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But Tar Patch and Dark Servant are much more powerful than they should be. If Twilight Grasps AOE is increased then those two powers should be reduced as I previously posted above (and Dark Servant given the same recharge as the Defender version). That's be a considerable lowering of the sets effectiveness overall. If you're arguing that TG needs to be brought in line with other sets then those powers need to be too.|
Originally Posted by Wassabi
but controllers do get Kinetics... I dont notice a reduction in area over a defender... that would be affected by your logic.
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If that means the inconsistencies in other areas like using the wrong values for Dark Servant or Tar Patch are also addressed, so be it - it's more likely the set would be balanced with the other MM secondaries that way than it is to muddle around with stronger Tar & Servant than it should have but weaker Grasp than it should have, and hope those balance out. It sounds to me like some of the arguments for keeping things as they are - the ones that say they're worried it'd mean nerfs to those other inconsistent areas - aren't really arguments for balance, they're arguments to stay slightly more powerful than they know they're meant to be (i.e. they value the superior Tar & Servant more than they'd value the normal Grasp). |
* Of course I value the Tar and Servant more than an AOE heal. You'd be mad not too. DS is almost certainly an aberration anyway especially combined with easy to get IOs (I know things aren't balanced around IOs, that refers to Game Difficulty. Powers are certainly changed to reflect how IOs interact with them : Empath controllers saw their top buff rendered almost useless on pets because of the No Recharge change. IOs almost certainly contributed to that). Still don't particularly want Dark to get another pass because as it it rocks as-is.
Even discounting DS as a true aberration which probably should be changed I'd prefer a stronger Tar Patch over a wider heal personally.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Ah, but the heal radius for twilight gasp would appear to be affected by AT modifiers to begin with. Notice that corrupters have a smaller radius then defenders for it. Can't say for controllers, they don't have the set. If it's a matter of the AT modifier reducing the heal radius, the only fix might be to raise the AT modifier. Which would not just affect that one power.
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However, AT modifiers that affect powers tend to affect all powers that fall into that type - so all powers that do damage are calculated by multiplying the AT Mod * Attack base * level Mod, all buff powers are calculated by multiplying the buffs base value by the AT buff mod, ect.
So, if there was an AT modifier for heal radius then ALL heals possesed by that AT would be affected by it. The fact that ONLY twilight grasp is different for the 3 AT's that currently posses it tells me that this is NOT due to an AT mod, as you keep insisting, but simply a manual change made to each of the 3 versions of the power.
So fixing the radius in the heal is NOT going to be some complicated change that will screw up all the other heals.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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I checked the in-game numbers and Defenders and Corruptors have the same radius. It's not AT modifiers, MM's just get a different version of Twilight Grasp..|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Ah, but the heal radius for twilight gasp would appear to be affected by AT modifiers to begin with. Notice that corrupters have a smaller radius then defenders for it. Can't say for controllers, they don't have the set. If it's a matter of the AT modifier reducing the heal radius, the only fix might be to raise the AT modifier. Which would not just affect that one power.
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Corruptor: 20ft radius
Defender: 20ft radius
(and for completeness, Mastermind: 10ft radius)
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
No, they're acknowledgements that sets are balanced as sets.
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| Of course I value the Tar and Servant more than an AOE heal. You'd be mad not too. |
I have a bot/DM mm, and Dark is definitely my fave mm secondary, but I never had a problem with it myself, but then again, from reading Enigma's post, the bots were always in BG mode so they always were close enough for the healz.
It's an awesome heal, nonetheless. Is the problem the heal not hitting the pets due to distance? Or maybe some practice is needed with keeping the pets close? What pets are you using?
Also, the heal IS powerful, when slotted. My mm cranks out roughly 408 HP per shot. not bad at all.