Regarding Recent Changes to Architect


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Its not quite that bad, because you only need to consider the case of a reasonably straight-forward solution to the mission, and then search for all possible ways to complete it quicker. All ways slower don't count.

Still, it would not be easy.




There's an orthogonal problem to allowing higher than standard rewards in AE missions, and that is the simple fact that there is no proportionality between "difficulty" and reward rates. There is only an implicit threshold of difficulty for a given reward rate which the situations must meet. In other words, even if it was possible to compute "difficulty" as a number, the appropriate reward rate for that mission isn't necessarily a function of that number.

The actual boundaries on reward rates for individual situations have as much to do with conditions outside of but related to those situations as within them. For example, the value of the reward that Hamidon generates has as much to do with how repeatable the trial is and how stackable the reward could be as it does how difficult the Hamidon trial actually is. Those types of variables are much more difficult to control for in the AE because people can easily publish many copies of the same missions with minor non-material (to rewards) changes.

Almost regardless of the difficulty of the arc, if the arc is indefinitely repeatable that already places a limit on the rewards that arc should generate. And that makes it difficult to allow more than trivial increases in reward rate above the standard one.
blah blah blah blah blah... Seriously, Arcanaville lost me at "orthogonal".

What I am getting out of this is that it's infinitely simpler to attach human eyes and experience to the process, mod the AE and forget all about trying to fully automate the system.

Hell, if Paragon is too cheap to hire playtesters to approve arcs that qualify to get rewards, they might find some willing volunteers right here on this forum. To speed up the process, certain authors, respected and proven to be dedicated, might earn a kind of passport where their newly-published arcs get fast-tracked to full status.

More automation will only create more holes for exploiters to slip through, and plugging them all will ruin the AE for legit uses. The collateral damage you're doing to legit arcs is not worth it. Quit wasting your energies playing the numbers game with farmers and exploiters. You will not win.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Sumericon View Post
blah blah blah blah blah... Seriously, Arcanaville lost me at "orthogonal".
I best let that pass without comment, but... why?

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Originally Posted by Sumericon View Post
What I am getting out of this is that it's infinitely simpler to attach human eyes and experience to the process, mod the AE and forget all about trying to fully automate the system.

Hell, if Paragon is too cheap to hire playtesters to approve arcs that qualify to get rewards, they might find some willing volunteers right here on this forum. To speed up the process, certain authors, respected and proven to be dedicated, might earn a kind of passport where their newly-published arcs get fast-tracked to full status.
It's like how toon names names are or are not allowed. They literally do not have the time to check every name everyone registers for their toons - it would take far more people than they can afford far more time than they can. Unless you parade your toon in front of a mod/dev on a server, they won't see it untill someone reports it, they depend on us to help them track down the infrngers, people who use inappropriate words in their names, etc. So you can consider yourself a willing volunteer as of right now - "Go. Hunt. Report arcs" - go nuts!

I think vetting "certain authors" would be a bad idea because it opens up a big ol' hole just ripe for easy abuse.

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Originally Posted by Sumericon View Post
More automation will only create more holes for exploiters to slip through, and plugging them all will ruin the AE for legit uses. The collateral damage you're doing to legit arcs is not worth it. Quit wasting your energies playing the numbers game with farmers and exploiters. You will not win.
Crime will always be with us but that doesn't mean it's pointless or useless passing laws against it. By the very nature of the relationship devs will be behind the curve - they have to play the "wait and see what they find, then fix it" game with the exploiters. That said, the holes exploiters can find will keep getting smaller and smaller until they're so small it's not worth their time when it's easier to go farm a standard arc.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Sumericon View Post
blah blah blah blah blah... Seriously, Arcanaville lost me at "orthogonal".
Separate from the problem Venture mentions, which is the difficulty in trying to compute the difficulty of an arc by computer algorithm, there is the separate, completely independent problem that even if you could, that doesn't directly tell you how much the mission should be worth, because not even standard PvE missions are designed in that way, and its not clear that's a good idea even if it could be done. You have to figure out how to turn that measure of difficulty into something useful for computing rewards, and that's not straight forward.

Solving Venture's problem gets you to the right longitude, but it does nothing to get you to the right latitude. Orthogonal.


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What I am getting out of this is that it's infinitely simpler to attach human eyes and experience to the process, mod the AE and forget all about trying to fully automate the system.

Hell, if Paragon is too cheap to hire playtesters to approve arcs that qualify to get rewards, they might find some willing volunteers right here on this forum. To speed up the process, certain authors, respected and proven to be dedicated, might earn a kind of passport where their newly-published arcs get fast-tracked to full status.
This infinitely simpler process doesn't seem to have a simple way to select and vet player-reviewers, or deal with the potential backlash to players moderating players.


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More automation will only create more holes for exploiters to slip through, and plugging them all will ruin the AE for legit uses. The collateral damage you're doing to legit arcs is not worth it. Quit wasting your energies playing the numbers game with farmers and exploiters. You will not win.
The devs need to get better, certainly. But personally, I think in a game of numbers my own chances would be better than average.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5 View Post
It's like how toon names names are or are not allowed. They literally do not have the time to check every name everyone registers for their toons - it would take far more people than they can afford far more time than they can. Unless you parade your toon in front of a mod/dev on a server, they won't see it untill someone reports it, they depend on us to help them track down the infrngers, people who use inappropriate words in their names, etc. So you can consider yourself a willing volunteer as of right now - "Go. Hunt. Report arcs" - go nuts!
I am not buying this "they don't have time" excuse. It's a cop-out. It's laziness. They have certainly proven that they have hours upon hours to spend to nerf, tweak, and fiddle with the MA. I wager those hours would be better spent on a more productive endeavor. "They don't have time" is total bull.

I've seen little proof that the "Report Arc" button really accomplishes anything. If so, I would see far fewer complaints about how the MA is clogged. In the current system, the report button seems to mean "Report this arc and we will do nothing." Again, this is another example of Paragon's failure to step up and take responsibility. They shy away and bury their heads in complex mathematical equations deploying automated systems rife with flaws and bugs that do little good and alot of bad.

Besides, if I am reviewing arcs, I don't want to hunt for bad arcs. I don't want anything to do with bad arcs. I want to be able to pull from a queue where authors have submitted their arcs and said "Hey, my arc has no exploits and I think it deserves to give rewards." Those are the arcs I want to play.

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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5 View Post
I think vetting "certain authors" would be a bad idea because it opens up a big ol' hole just ripe for easy abuse.
Did I say players that earned the passport would have their arcs published sight unseen? No, I did not say that. I said fast-tracked. Big difference. No hole here.

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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5 View Post
Crime will always be with us but that doesn't mean it's pointless or useless passing laws against it. By the very nature of the relationship devs will be behind the curve - they have to play the "wait and see what they find, then fix it" game with the exploiters. That said, the holes exploiters can find will keep getting smaller and smaller until they're so small it's not worth their time when it's easier to go farm a standard arc.
True crime will always be with us, however, if a person wearing a green shirt robs a bank, Congress does not pass a law that says everyone wearing a green shirt will be arrested and jailed, which is what they have done with this ally patch.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
(snip)... Solving Venture's problem gets you to the right longitude, but it does nothing to get you to the right latitude. Orthogonal.
Seriously, it was a joke. What I meant to say was, there are 3 kinds of people: those that understand advanced theoretical mathematics, and me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
This infinitely simpler process doesn't seem to have a simple way to select and vet player-reviewers, or deal with the potential backlash to players moderating players.
I'm not doing their job for them. I'm advancing an idea. Once they PAY ME to develop a plan and implement a system, then I will put more thought into it. Although I will hazard that they give less than a dog pile about backlash, given the reaction to many of the "fixes" they've implemented over the years up to and including this most recent patch, and they have never to my knowledge backed down on a single one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The devs need to get better, certainly. But personally, I think in a game of numbers my own chances would be better than average.
Maybe you, sure. You do have good ideas about defense. However, your name ain't red.


 

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Its not quite that bad, because you only need to consider the case of a reasonably straight-forward solution to the mission, and then search for all possible ways to complete it quicker. All ways slower don't count.
You would first have to find a way to code how to recognize "ways to complete it quicker". It is hard to see how a judging algorithm would have recognized the "unnoticed healing ally" problem that got us here if it hadn't been coded to do so in the first place.

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There's an orthogonal problem to allowing higher than standard rewards in AE missions, and that is the simple fact that there is no proportionality between "difficulty" and reward rates.
Agreed, but the original proposal was to automate evaluation of potential reward rates directly, not "difficulty".

Further downthread....

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I am not buying this "they don't have time" excuse. It's a cop-out. It's laziness.
Right, let me break this down for you.

We are rapidly closing in on 400,000 keys used. While the vast majority of those are no longer in the system (much of the turnover is due to the aforementioned "publish and perish" method used by exploiters, or idiots who publish their arcs to test them and then delete and republish), it is fair to say there are still thousands of arcs available. I don't recall the exact number that was given recently but it was on the order of tens of thousands of extant arcs, so let's go with that.

Assume there are 10,000 arcs (there are probably many more). Now assume that it "only" takes 15 minutes, on the mean, to thoroughly examine one, an estimate that based on my own experience in reviewing over 150 arcs may be charitably described as laughingly optimistic, but we'll roll with it. You're looking at 150,000 man-minutes, or 2500 man-hours, to check them all. That's 62.5 man-weeks, assuming 40-hour weeks. The last estimate I heard of Paragon Studio's staff size was on the order of 50, so if they put 10% of their staff on doing nothing but checking MA arcs they'll be done in about 3 months...and then they can get started on all the arcs that were submitted in that time.

That's using numbers that are almost certainly way too low.

How fast arcs are being added to the system is harder to estimate, because of things like the maximum number of arc slots and how willing people are to delete arcs to make room for new ones, but I think it is fair to say that we are getting on the order of hundreds of new arcs per week (proof does not fit in this margin). Every 100 new arcs would require 25 man-hours to vett with the above assumption of 15 minutes/arc. It should be clear they can't afford to put enough people on this to keep up. It's not laziness.


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Posted

But they don't check every arc; they check arcs that are reported. Nobody knows how that system works or how many arcs are reported in a given time period.

I know that they can restore an unpublished arc so they are probably all still on the server and just no longer showing up in searches, which means that they can still check an arc that was published briefly, violently exploited, and then unpublished.

I still think what we need is a great purge. Mark all arcs currently in the system and hide them from searches that don't specifically target their ID numbers or authors. Remove the mark when an arc is republished. This would push abandoned arcs under the rug while authors who care about their work won't be affected beyond a five minute republishing spree.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
Right, let me break this down for you.

We are rapidly closing in on 400,000 keys used. While the vast majority of those are no longer in the system (much of the turnover is due to the aforementioned "publish and perish" method used by exploiters, or idiots who publish their arcs to test them and then delete and republish), it is fair to say there are still thousands of arcs available. I don't recall the exact number that was given recently but it was on the order of tens of thousands of extant arcs, so let's go with that.

Assume there are 10,000 arcs (there are probably many more). Now assume that it "only" takes 15 minutes, on the mean, to thoroughly examine one, an estimate that based on my own experience in reviewing over 150 arcs may be charitably described as laughingly optimistic, but we'll roll with it. You're looking at 150,000 man-minutes, or 2500 man-hours, to check them all. That's 62.5 man-weeks, assuming 40-hour weeks. The last estimate I heard of Paragon Studio's staff size was on the order of 50, so if they put 10% of their staff on doing nothing but checking MA arcs they'll be done in about 3 months...and then they can get started on all the arcs that were submitted in that time.

That's using numbers that are almost certainly way too low.

How fast arcs are being added to the system is harder to estimate, because of things like the maximum number of arc slots and how willing people are to delete arcs to make room for new ones, but I think it is fair to say that we are getting on the order of hundreds of new arcs per week (proof does not fit in this margin). Every 100 new arcs would require 25 man-hours to vett with the above assumption of 15 minutes/arc. It should be clear they can't afford to put enough people on this to keep up. It's not laziness.
Well said, thank you for taking the time to do the math for Sumericon on that (and thus saving me the time!).

The "everybody republish your arcs" idea that FredrikSvanberg has is pretty good, but I'd hate to think we might lose some good ones just because an author left the game and isn't around to do it. Then again, considering what we stand to gain... I might be able to live with it.


 

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But they don't check every arc; they check arcs that are reported.
And exploiters' arcs are almost never reported, since they're only around while in use.

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I know that they can restore an unpublished arc so they are probably all still on the server and just no longer showing up in searches, which means that they can still check an arc that was published briefly, violently exploited, and then unpublished.
They'd have to know it was violently exploited, and they're never going to know. They can't tell if the same arc is being repeatedly published and deleted (previously addressed), either.

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I still think what we need is a great purge.
I'm still in favor of the 90-day (or even 180-day) lifespan for orphaned and unplayed arcs.


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Posted

It seems clear to me that interest in MA is at a low point right now.

You can tell just by looking at this message board forum. This is the only thread on this forum that seems to be really active at this time.

My 5 star arc with 46 plays has gotten no plays in weeks. In fact the only plays any of my arcs have gotten in a very long time are from 2 in game friends and PW because I asked for a review.

At the moment I have no motivation to update any of my arcs because I don't have any idea what sort of fix is coming or even for sure when it will be implemented.

Where I work as a software developer, if there is ever a fix that breaks things it is backed out. I strongly feel that the recent fix should be backed out because it hurts the people who care about MA. Exploiters will always find ways to exploit and it seems the wrong people have been hurt by the fix.

I also strongly agree with a purge of arcs that have not been published/republished in say 90 days. Of course devs choice/HOF arcs would be excluded and perhaps even 5 star arcs with more than some fixed number of plays (if the number is high enough it would be easy to check if they are legit).

It is very sad to me that a tool with such great potential to add so much to the game is in the state that it is in now. I hope something is done soon.


@Gypsy Rose

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Posted

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Originally Posted by Clave_Dark_5 View Post
The "everybody republish your arcs" idea that FredrikSvanberg has is pretty good, but I'd hate to think we might lose some good ones just because an author left the game and isn't around to do it. Then again, considering what we stand to gain... I might be able to live with it.
How about this then: the arcs can still be found by searching for the author or ID, and the first time they are played (completed) after the purge they get unmarked and shows up in searches once again. That way anyone can "reinstate" an arc by simply looking it up and playing it. Admittedly a few arcs might be lost because nobody can remember its ID number or the author.


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Posted

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I also strongly agree with a purge of arcs that have not been published/republished in say 90 days.
Just to clarify, I'm suggesting arcs that have not been played or accessed by their creators in 90 days (or whatever number) get purged. It shouldn't be necessary for the creator to refresh an arc if it's still getting played occasionally.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
How about this then: the arcs can still be found by searching for the author or ID, and the first time they are played (completed) after the purge they get unmarked and shows up in searches once again. That way anyone can "reinstate" an arc by simply looking it up and playing it. Admittedly a few arcs might be lost because nobody can remember its ID number or the author.
I love this idea and feel it would be a godsend to MA. It removes the need for any great Dev monitoring and provides an simple way for authors to insure there arc don't end up on the MIA list. It also would help make 4 stars not the no play basement it is now.

I also agree with Arrowrose and others that MA is at an extreme low point right now and do fear that bundling the fix with GR will be too little too late. As a matter of normal course AE arcs see sharp drops in plays each time a new issue is released for a week to maybe a month or so. With such a large addition to the game like GR I would expect at least a month of slow time. Combined with two plus months of slow time post patch may put MA in a place it can't bounce back from.


WN


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
Just to clarify, I'm suggesting arcs that have not been played or accessed by their creators in 90 days (or whatever number) get purged. It shouldn't be necessary for the creator to refresh an arc if it's still getting played occasionally.
I agree with this as well. There should be no need for the author to republish if an arc is getting constant plays.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
Just to clarify, I'm suggesting arcs that have not been played or accessed by their creators in 90 days (or whatever number) get purged. It shouldn't be necessary for the creator to refresh an arc if it's still getting played occasionally.
Why do I picture some lone jerkass clicking "play" on every outdated single-mission Steel Canyon blinky grab he can find?


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Why do I picture some lone jerkass clicking "play" on every outdated single-mission Steel Canyon blinky grab he can find?
With my suggestion he would need to know the IDs or authors of them in order to find them. Unless he just searches for every ID one after the other, which will take a couple of decades, probably.


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Posted

The Great Purge would only clear out the dreck currently in the system. In order to keep the system clear they would need to do purges every few months, because if it was simply a system of "x days without an update or a play = hidden" then the outdated arcs would get plays, just to tick us off.

Yes, it sounds like a lot of effort to go to just to tick us and the devs off. I fully believe that some people are willing to go to any lengths to be jerkasses, feel free to prove me wrong.


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Posted

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Why do I picture some lone jerkass clicking "play" on every outdated single-mission Steel Canyon blinky grab he can find?
Don't display any kind of aging data to anyone but the arc author. A potential griefer (which I don't seriously expect, there are better and easier ways to yank peoples' chain) would only be able to guess at which arcs to touch.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
Agreed, but the original proposal was to automate evaluation of potential reward rates directly, not "difficulty".
I was responding to this, although I didn't connect the dots fully:

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You could come up with a heuristic (as opposed to an algorithm) that could guess whether or not an arc would be abusive, with varying degrees of accuracy, but that has its own problems, left as an exercise for the reader.
An "abusive" arc could be an arc which generates reward rates so high its very obviously exploitive in some way. But it could also be an arc which generates otherwise reasonable reward rates in unreasonable ways. For example, an arc which spawns an ally which then goes berserk in the mission killing everything in sight and generating 20% higher than average rewards for the player while they go afk and eat a sandwich would be abusive, even though 20% higher than average reward earning rates are not in and of themselves obviously exploitive.

So you could catch the worst offenders with a boundary checker, but in terms of what the upstream poster was talking about - allowing the AE to include higher than standard rewards - an abuse checker would need to also look at whether higher than normal but not astronomical rewards were not abusive in some way. Or to put it in the way they did, those rewards have to have an appropriate "cost." Which is why I mention that even if you could datamine difficulty and reward rates, neither one of those directly determines cost, the target you want to hit.


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Posted

The difficulty in creating a clear and unambiguous definition of "exploit" reminds me of the similar difficulty in creating a legal definition of "pornography" which led to the famous declaration of Justice Potter Stewart that "I know it when I see it".

Come to think of it, there are a number of other parallels between exploits and pornography.


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Posted

Ok, since my first suggestion seems to be a math and coding nightmare can one of the math guru's tell me what the problem would be with simply placing a cap on the XP obtainable per mission?

The devs have been data mining for some time now and I suspect they have a good idea what kind of XP an average 8 player pug can produce by doing scanners for example. Given the fact a solo player can set their difficulty to be equal to a team of 8, why can't they just say no matter what you put in the mish the maximum amount of XP obtainable is "X"?

If you fill a map with enough enemies to go over that limit they produce nothing. Would you then be able to roll some things back into the MA that have been removed because they cannot produce accelerated rewards?

I am also all for a complete mission purge. Allow folks enough time, and send an email notice to folks that have been away, so they can unpublish their work. Then wipe the slate clean and insitute some form of Venture's system where once an arc is published it must be attended to by the author or played by the public during a certain period of time or it will be automatically removed from the listing.


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Posted

This is pretty far afield from the original topic, but regarding "purging" old arcs, I think you could implement a much less drastic solution as follows:

* Create a new "freshness" classification for arcs. An arc can be "fresh" or "stale".
* A newly published arc is marked "stale".
* An arc is marked "fresh" if someone (including the author) plays through the arc from beginning to end.
* An arc is marked "stale" if the author republishes it. (But becomes "fresh" again if the author playtests it.)
* Every patch (or possibly only patches that affect MA) automatically marks all arcs "stale", except for honored arcs (guest author, dev choice, hall of fame). Honored arcs are permanently "fresh".
* Add a "freshness" search criteria allowing users to search for "fresh" "stale" or "don't care" on freshness.
* Set the default search to only search for "fresh" arcs.

Advantages:
* Automatically expires old arcs that are not maintained, without actually deleting them. (However, you can save a beloved arc whose author has vanished by playing through it on your own.)
* Encourages authors to playtest their own arcs after each republish and after each patch. (This is a good practice in general.)
* Low development effort (at least, I think so)
* If you vanish for a year and your arc goes stale, you can come back and it's still there, though it may need some sprucing up.


This doesn't address the exp issues, but would address the clutter issues. Not sure if cleaning up the arc clutter is even on dev radar at this point (I'm sure there's a lot of bigger fish to fry), but thought I'd put this forward just in case.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by PapaSlade View Post
Ok, since my first suggestion seems to be a math and coding nightmare can one of the math guru's tell me what the problem would be with simply placing a cap on the XP obtainable per mission?
Once you reach the cap, you click the blinky and exit the mission. The cap would have to be rather high in the first place to avoid punishing authors of legitimate arcs or non-farmers who enjoy running heavily IOd melee toons through said legitimate arcs at high difficulty, so a farmer would be able to get quite a lot of farming in before hitting it. Then punch out, repeat. Just like they do with tickets.

The problem the ally nerf was intended to solve wasn't that people were actually getting more XP/mission. The problem is that they were getting said XP faster and more safely. Compare the kill rate of an SO'd Scrapper to that of a heavily IOd Scrapper with perma-hasten, soft-capped defense and added HP, regen, and recovery. The IOd Scrapper can survive tougher spawns and kill them faster. A map full of allies can, in seconds, give anyone that survivability and kill speed, that would otherwise take billions of inf to achieve.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman View Post
This is pretty far afield from the original topic, but regarding "purging" old arcs, I think you could implement a much less drastic solution as follows:

* Create a new "freshness" classification for arcs. An arc can be "fresh" or "stale".
* A newly published arc is marked "stale".
* An arc is marked "fresh" if someone (including the author) plays through the arc from beginning to end.
* An arc is marked "stale" if the author republishes it. (But becomes "fresh" again if the author playtests it.)
* Every patch (or possibly only patches that affect MA) automatically marks all arcs "stale", except for honored arcs (guest author, dev choice, hall of fame). Honored arcs are permanently "fresh".
* Add a "freshness" search criteria allowing users to search for "fresh" "stale" or "don't care" on freshness.
* Set the default search to only search for "fresh" arcs.

Advantages:
* Automatically expires old arcs that are not maintained, without actually deleting them. (However, you can save a beloved arc whose author has vanished by playing through it on your own.)
* Encourages authors to playtest their own arcs after each republish and after each patch. (This is a good practice in general.)
* Low development effort (at least, I think so)
* If you vanish for a year and your arc goes stale, you can come back and it's still there, though it may need some sprucing up.


This doesn't address the exp issues, but would address the clutter issues. Not sure if cleaning up the arc clutter is even on dev radar at this point (I'm sure there's a lot of bigger fish to fry), but thought I'd put this forward just in case.
This...is actually a pretty brilliant proposal. Seems to address the main problems without creating new ones.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoliceWoman View Post
This is pretty far afield from the original topic, but regarding "purging" old arcs, I think you could implement a much less drastic solution as follows:

* Create a new "freshness" classification for arcs. An arc can be "fresh" or "stale".

<snip>

This doesn't address the exp issues, but would address the clutter issues. Not sure if cleaning up the arc clutter is even on dev radar at this point (I'm sure there's a lot of bigger fish to fry), but thought I'd put this forward just in case.

So.... who do I have to bribe, and how much, to get the Devs to implement this.


I'm a published amateur comic book author: www.ericjohnsoncomics.com
******MA Arcs****
Arc 5909: "Amazon-Avatars"
Arc 6143: "Escalation" (Nominee: Architect Awards, Nominee: Player Awards, and Dev's Choice!)