Inflation and Availability
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2010-03-31 17:20 in The Market and Inventions
It's a terrible idea. Why ? The market is not a store, if the devs wanted a store they'd have made a store and not a market.
The downfall of the market is that it is 100% player supplied. If we could get some RP based dev supply flowing into the market, that would help alot. A store would just be a point blank shot to the head.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
I'm not talking about removing the Market. I'm saying leave the Market as is and add a Store that has everything for sell. The price of items in the store would be set so that they would be the "cap" for that item. You could still sell stuff for a profit on the market, but it would make no sense to list anything above the store prices.
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I would rather an increase in supply side,|
Originally Posted by Zmoosh
I'm not talking about removing the Market. I'm saying leave the Market as is and add a Store that has everything for sell. The price of items in the store would be set so that they would be the "cap" for that item. You could still sell stuff for a profit on the market, but it would make no sense to list anything above the store prices.
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Example I logged onto one of my 50 alts that haven't played since before the changed how difficulty worked, so it was set at the default lowest setting. Until I really cranked up the difficulty I wasn't getting ANY recipes much less set recipes. Having a streak breaker mechanic would be nice for drops
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Originally Posted by Zmoosh
I'm not talking about removing the Market. I'm saying leave the Market as is and add a Store that has everything for sell. The price of items in the store would be set so that they would be the "cap" for that item. You could still sell stuff for a profit on the market, but it would make no sense to list anything above the store prices.
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If you think about it, you wouldn't be making a profit on the market because no one would buy anything off the market unless they could get it cheaper than from the store. And no one would want to sell anything on the market for less than what the store pays for it. Its a bit circular, but I hope you see what I'm getting at?
Adding a store removes the market because the store makes the market pointless.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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Well, we already have a price cap of 2bn, why not offer everything in your store for 2bn?|
Originally Posted by Zmoosh
I'm not talking about removing the Market. I'm saying leave the Market as is and add a Store that has everything for sell. The price of items in the store would be set so that they would be the "cap" for that item. You could still sell stuff for a profit on the market, but it would make no sense to list anything above the store prices.
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(ducks head, runs for cover)
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
deleted for repost
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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You were probably getting drops at the normal rate of about one recipe and five salvage per mission.
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Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
I would rather an increase in supply side,
Example I logged onto one of my 50 alts that haven't played since before the changed how difficulty worked, so it was set at the default lowest setting. Until I really cranked up the difficulty I wasn't getting ANY recipes much less set recipes. Having a streak breaker mechanic would be nice for drops |
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Originally Posted by Pyber
If you think about it, you wouldn't be making a profit on the market because no one would buy anything off the market unless they could get it cheaper than from the store. And no one would want to sell anything on the market for less than what the store pays for it. Its a bit circular, but I hope you see what I'm getting at?
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I do see what you are getting at, and that is the whole point. For example if you sold all the purples at the store for 300 million, then no one would ever pay over that amount for one. This also address the availability issue-- what if I can't get a certain io on the market because there isn't one of that type listed, and if someone were to pay the 300 million to the store for said unavailable io that would be 300 million inf gone forever, thus reducing inflation.
I'm not saying make the market irrelevant, finding a purple would still earn u a chunk of change if you decide to sell it. The hard part would be the pricing. Priced to low it would make the market irrelevant, priced to high and this wouldn't have the intended effect. As far as selling to the store, the store would pay the same crappy low prices that they have currently.
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You're right, I hate it. Why not just eliminate all drops from the game if everything is available in a store. The drops serve no purpose then, and neither do the CHs. At that point--|
Originally Posted by Zmoosh
I'm sure Marketeers will hate this idea (not that I haven't used the Market to line my pockets). So what do you think?
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Oh, wait, you mean YOU use the CH to make money? Pot, meet Kettle.
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Apart from Purple and PvP recipes everything is available at the merit "stores".
The devs have stated they didn't give those merit costs because it would be too high.
So if you think about the merits/hour rates the devs have stated and how much influence/infamy a level 50 character can generate there is actually a base inf cost compared to merits.
The variance in prices you see beyond that would be addressed by demand on those drops.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I wouldn't mind seeing the common IO:set IO ratio tweaked a little in favor of set IO. I don't know the rate, but I get many, many more common IO recipes - all of which are sold, bringing more inf into the system (and at 50, those vendor for a good chunk).
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Originally Posted by Katie V
You were probably getting drops at the normal rate of about one recipe and five salvage per mission.
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Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
If people really wanted to fix market inflation they'd stop paying stupid prices.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Not the same people. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
If people really wanted to fix market inflation they'd stop paying stupid prices.
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(I am assuming, but I could be wrong I guess.)
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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I'd love to see a graph that plotted merits/hour and inf/hour on 50s. Or rather many plots spread across dates. Is more inf coming into the system compared to merits than before, especially since the difficulty slider changes? I know for my playstyle it's felt easier to generate inf than merits; up the number of mobs, increase inf and chance for purples but take more time to complete missions.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
So if you think about the merits/hour rates the devs have stated and how much influence/infamy a level 50 character can generate there is actually a base inf cost compared to merits.
The variance in prices you see beyond that would be addressed by demand on those drops. |
It's probably a pipe-dream, but I wonder if some set of equations should serve as a balance between influence, merits, drops, number of characters. Each character over the course of a career can be expected to slot X number of IO; to generate this many, you'll need X * Y mob drops; Z/X of these IO will be created via merits (portion of which will be rolled, portion bought)...so Q merits need to be generated per character to sustain, etc. Set a number of hours, mob kills, whatever where a build can be expected to be "complete" (at 50? 100 hours of being 50?). Maybe something to even out production by level.
If something changes to throw the equilibrium out-of-whack, react (slow down generation of inf, adjust merits to account for extra inf). Is production skewed to 50 because of holding out on rolls, or an aging of the character population (is 85% of red-side now at lvl 50 and only generating lvl 50 recipes)? Maybe merit rolls should be cheaper for lower-level characters (similar to how tickets work, but based on the character level rather than recipe level). Maybe drop rates for 50s should be lower than at 25.
(ok, enough rambling for now)
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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Your first line just shows that op's idea that things that are really high now would be 300 million, is just silly. If the devs made a store, i dobut you'd see purples and pvp IOs for anything less than 1billion. Seeing as how I seriously doubt the devs want everyone to easily get high priced items.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Apart from Purple and PvP recipes everything is available at the merit "stores".
The devs have stated they didn't give those merit costs because it would be too high. So if you think about the merits/hour rates the devs have stated and how much influence/infamy a level 50 character can generate there is actually a base inf cost compared to merits. The variance in prices you see beyond that would be addressed by demand on those drops. |
THAT and for many other reasons, is why this is a TERRIBLE idea.
/unsigned.
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Should they have done something different than a market? Yes, because a market is bad for a number of reasons people are slowly beginning to realize (not the least of which is mudflation). But it's too late, that ship has sailed. The market is what they chose, and it's here to stay.
Tickets and Merits giving the beginnings of an end-run around the market is a step in the right direction, but the market remains the optimal path to getting complete IO sets (and this is the only reason I bother with the market myself; if you want sets, you're gonna have to deal with the market).
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I thought about something like this, where the devs could adjust the drop rates based on the number of players. Determine a baseline, then adjust periodically when the actual rates varies.|
Originally Posted by gec72
...It's probably a pipe-dream, but I wonder if some set of equations should serve as a balance between influence, merits, drops, number of characters. Each character over the course of a career can be expected to slot X number of IO; to generate this many, you'll need X * Y mob drops; Z/X of these IO will be created via merits (portion of which will be rolled, portion bought)...so Q merits need to be generated per character to sustain, etc. Set a number of hours, mob kills, whatever where a build can be expected to be "complete" (at 50? 100 hours of being 50?). Maybe something to even out production by level.
If something changes to throw the equilibrium out-of-whack, react (slow down generation of inf, adjust merits to account for extra inf). Is production skewed to 50 because of holding out on rolls, or an aging of the character population (is 85% of red-side now at lvl 50 and only generating lvl 50 recipes)? Maybe merit rolls should be cheaper for lower-level characters (similar to how tickets work, but based on the character level rather than recipe level). Maybe drop rates for 50s should be lower than at 25. (ok, enough rambling for now) |
The thing I struggle with redside is finding sets below level 50. Players are spending less time in the mid-levels (my perception.) In addition, players are using AE for leveling rather than a mission, skewing drop rates.
As to the suggestion of having a store with everything, not an idea I can support.
Catch me in-game - @blkfalcon
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After posting I threw up a "reduced merit roll cost for lower level characters" idea in the suggestions forum to help with the redside issue (thinking it might offset the urge to hoard merits a *bit*), but it's not really going over well*.|
Originally Posted by BlkFalcon
I thought about something like this, where the devs could adjust the drop rates based on the number of players. Determine a baseline, then adjust periodically when the actual rates varies.
The thing I struggle with redside is finding sets below level 50. Players are spending less time in the mid-levels (my perception.) In addition, players are using AE for leveling rather than a mission, skewing drop rates. As to the suggestion of having a store with everything, not an idea I can support. |
* the prevailing sentiment is basically that as a player, you already have the ability to roll more recipes at lower levels by going the Midlevel Crisis route (one offered that folks would start turning off XP and use that as an exploit...with the reduction of level 50 recipes as a consequence)
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
Okay I get it, nobody likes this idea. It was just something that occurred to me to address the inflation and availability issues.
What if they removed the Generic io's from the drop tables and replaced them with set io's? This would increase the set io's drop rate, thus increasing supply.
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Nitpick: a drop rate is based upon mob defeats. putting things on tables is aside from drop rates and unrelated. I think you meant supply in the market.|
Originally Posted by Zmoosh
Okay I get it, nobody likes this idea. It was just something that occurred to me to address the inflation and availability issues.
What if they removed the Generic io's from the drop tables and replaced them with set io's? This would increase the set io's drop rate, thus increasing supply. |
Most sets are cheap in the markets. If the devs put Thunderstrikes (which used to be cheap until people figured out how good the set is) on the table would they price it based upon it's desirability or some other factor?
The other issue is the markets are player driven. Players want X more than Y so they pay more to get X than they will pay to get Y.
Most people complaining about market costs come to the market to buy and rarely to sell. Or they got junk drops and want the good stuff. While that is normal human behavior and completely understandable it makes multiple drops rather pointless.
Ask yourself this, what if there were only one set for each type so there was no choice involved? Is that not what having everything buyable would basically boil down to among the players? Is that not what SOs are in the game?
The reason many people hate these kinds of suggestions is that it stems from forgetting that IOs are optional (though highly desirable) and they are loot so some of it is better loot than others. When it is all equally available who would take anything less than the best loot so why have any loot at all and not just give every character max abilities upon choosing?
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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... good point.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Not the same people.
(I am assuming, but I could be wrong I guess.) |
Howevah! I have a billion inf on my main villain and I won't pay more than 200mil for a hecatomb, so I'm trying to practice what I preach!
Be well, people of CoH.
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Heck depending on what magic fix the devs have in the works you might get one for much less come July assuming the magic fix is coming with Going Rogue.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
... good point.
Howevah! I have a billion inf on my main villain and I won't pay more than 200mil for a hecatomb, so I'm trying to practice what I preach! |
Funny thing is there really isn't much they can do that would drive me to ragequit I just have mental objections to them fooling around too much with a player driven market. Kind of like when I order Coke and get told they only have Pepsi. I just order Sierra Mist or whatever but doggoneit restaurants should have both Coke and Pepsi!
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Nitpick: a drop rate is based upon mob defeats. putting things on tables is aside from drop rates and unrelated. I think you meant supply in the market.
Most sets are cheap in the markets. If the devs put Thunderstrikes (which used to be cheap until people figured out how good the set is) on the table would they price it based upon it's desirability or some other factor? The other issue is the markets are player driven. Players want X more than Y so they pay more to get X than they will pay to get Y. Most people complaining about market costs come to the market to buy and rarely to sell. Or they got junk drops and want the good stuff. While that is normal human behavior and completely understandable it makes multiple drops rather pointless. Ask yourself this, what if there were only one set for each type so there was no choice involved? Is that not what having everything buyable would basically boil down to among the players? Is that not what SOs are in the game? The reason many people hate these kinds of suggestions is that it stems from forgetting that IOs are optional (though highly desirable) and they are loot so some of it is better loot than others. When it is all equally available who would take anything less than the best loot so why have any loot at all and not just give every character max abilities upon choosing? |
I don't know how the drop's work. I have heard that purples are @ 1:1500. Is it a roll like combat?
I have only been back a little over three months (love the trench coat btw), and I have had no problem making money. I hooked up early with a good VG who gave me great advice, so I can make inf. I've already got 3 50's set out, though the only purples are on the Dom to achieve Perma-Dom. What I would like to see is a reduction in prices so that I could spend less time farming/marketing, and spend that extra time actually playing with my friends.
I'm new here and this may not be the right place to post this (suggestions maybe?), but there seems to me to be a simple fix to the runaway inflation and availability issues.
This may have been brought up before or there may be some obvious reasons why this wouldn't work.
Sell everything at the quartermaster, or blue equivalent. This would allow the Devs to put a cap on prices and remove inf from the game. This npc store/vendor would have to sell everything, or the prices of whatever wasn't sold there would skyrocket.
Okay I'm sure this has been brought up before-- and I'm sure Marketeers will hate this idea (not that I haven't used the Market to line my pockets). So what do you think?