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Well, if they go and implement something like this, I don't see why they should put any limit to it. Sure, you can have your magic runes appear when you brawl now, but so does a mutant for reasons only its player knows. So, good idea, but only if everyone get access to everything.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
With powerset customization I'd like to suggest alternate animations for powers based on origin.
Whether it's completely altered (Tech Robot sniping with laser eyes, firing fire-blasts from shoulder cannons, etc) Or just a change in the particle physics (Magic character flinging "Rune of Power" styled attacks) And then have each origin tied to specific ones and the correlated origins. I.E. A Mutant character can use Mutant, Science, and Magic animations for their powers. A Natural character can use Natural, Magic, and Tech animations. Etc. Basically if you can use a DO with a cross-origin you can use an animation with a cross-origin. Opinions? -Rachel- |
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It's a decent suggestion, it REALLY is... So +Rep for you, buddy.|
Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
Ahh well. I was just putting that out there. Seems like every time I suggest something I get that rep thing thrown at me.
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But people are adamant about everyone getting everything equally. The community can look at other MMOs (here's looking at the big one) and look at the heterogeneous blend of different classes out there that have not only a completely different spectrum of abilities, but a different NUMBER of abilities, as well. We at CoH have a set number of abilities: 9 per power set, and a set number in power pools: 4 per pool. We're all too used to things being distributed equally and evenly to the point of a VERY vocal minority drowning out any suggestions tied to origins to the point we can't all have the same thing.
In short? If we did get something, it would be this:
[Origin Punch]
Melee Ranged
Minor Damage
Dev Note: Happy, now?
We, as the community, often cannot handle the idea of people getting different rewards. With origins, I can understand because we were given it as a choice in the original costume creator as an arbitrary choice with NO opportunity to change any time along the way. If the devs came out and said "Remember that choice that you thought didn't mean anything? Turns out it does!" we would be annoyed because it's an annoying thing to happen.
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Umm... You kinda played into what I was saying there, Xhris... Mutants can use Mutant, Magic, and Science origin animations. So yes, your mutant could have "Magic Punch" by what I've stated.|
Originally Posted by xhris
Well, if they go and implement something like this, I don't see why they should put any limit to it. Sure, you can have your magic runes appear when you brawl now, but so does a mutant for reasons only its player knows. So, good idea, but only if everyone get access to everything.
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To answer the question of "Why limit it" is because it differentiates the origins while -mostly- holding true to the criteria put forth by MI_Abrams...
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
The question is, can you point to a suggestion that fulfills all of the following?
A) is balanced across all origins B) is equally beneficial to all ATs C) is not horribly overpowered D) still worthwhile to take the time to code E) doesn't restrict content to certain Origins |
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Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
Doesn't work for magic powered robots, so no deal.
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No more limiting than current tech and, in fact, expands options... I still think it's a good idea.
-Rachel-
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Can't ever agree to it - who is to say why you're using a specific animation? What actually defines an animation as a specific origin?|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
With powerset customization I'd like to suggest alternate animations for powers based on origin.
Whether it's completely altered (Tech Robot sniping with laser eyes, firing fire-blasts from shoulder cannons, etc) Or just a change in the particle physics (Magic character flinging "Rune of Power" styled attacks) And then have each origin tied to specific ones and the correlated origins. I.E. A Mutant character can use Mutant, Science, and Magic animations for their powers. A Natural character can use Natural, Magic, and Tech animations. Etc. Basically if you can use a DO with a cross-origin you can use an animation with a cross-origin. Opinions? -Rachel- |
First, let's look at the "circle" of origins. All you need to do is visit anyone who sells DOs to work them out -
Science >> Tech >> Natural >> Magic >> Mutant >> Science
So, restricting "eye beams" to tech means your Magic warrior, who's been doing so while fighting criminals with the "eyes of justice," no longer can. Unless, of course, we grandfather everyone in. In which case, (a) what's the point, and (b) why are we restricting new players and new characters again?
OK, ok, so let's go to the particle choices. Magic runes. Which can be used by Natural and Mutant - so why can't my Tech Controller, who used to work in pyrotechnics and advanced displays, use them in a "Technomage" theme, or just to throw off anyone who may want to counter him into believing he's using magic instead of "tech with a light show?"
The argument's come up before with weapons, too. I mean, Broadsword looks pretty natural, right? Except my BS/SR Scrapper (only 50 scrapper I have) is Magic. The powers are sourced from the sword itself. Or you can get a very Tech looking sword. Or perhaps the crystals in the sword were placed there by an ancestor, who knew his family was a bit "different" and they plus the materials activate a Mutation which allows them to become exceptional warriors.
I can never, and will never, accept a suggestion to tie animations or costume bits to origin, and tend - outside of epic ATs (due to being tied to their storyline) and temp powers - to greatly dislike tying powers to them.
How about the devs begin letting us choose a Primary and Secondary origin?
It means you get to equip both kinds of SOs and get bonuses if your DOs are usable by both of your chosen origins.
"But it overpowers you through the levels you use DOs!"
Well, get passed those levels, buckaroo. 
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Do they?|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Though... A Magic powered Robot could just choose between "Magic" or "Tech" for his origin, since both apply equally
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If my character's "family" has, in the past, animated trees, suits of armor, scarecrows and the like by magic - no mechanical abilities - to help "defend the downtrodden," is that tech? The current generation builds a "robot" shell for the energies since that fits the "current world," but they're just that - a shell. There's no "tech" involved. Without the magic to empower them, they can do nothing. The magic is the source of the ability... so, no, they would not apply equally.
Picking "tech," in other words, would not be true to the character, and would be a case of metagaming as opposed to - well, just designing the character truly to themselves.
Of course, this does also ignore (again) the millions of characters already created, whose origins are "corrected" in bios or just picked randomly or because Magic (say) is the first group in the higher level SO vendors. Retrofitting this sort of thing is, frankly, a bad idea in general.
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If you power a suit of armor through magic, or a robotic shell through magic it is a -magic- origin, regardless of what the resultant golem looks like. Would this golem have shoulder mounted rail cannons and eye-beams to fire magic balls of fire from? Why would it rely on the shoulder-mounted rail cannon, which is non-functional by the way, to fire a magic attack? |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Do they?
If my character's "family" has, in the past, animated trees, suits of armor, scarecrows and the like by magic - no mechanical abilities - to help "defend the downtrodden," is that tech? The current generation builds a "robot" shell for the energies since that fits the "current world," but they're just that - a shell. There's no "tech" involved. Without the magic to empower them, they can do nothing. The magic is the source of the ability... so, no, they would not apply equally. Picking "tech," in other words, would not be true to the character, and would be a case of metagaming as opposed to - well, just designing the character truly to themselves. Of course, this does also ignore (again) the millions of characters already created, whose origins are "corrected" in bios or just picked randomly or because Magic (say) is the first group in the higher level SO vendors. Retrofitting this sort of thing is, frankly, a bad idea in general. |
Another point to note is that it could be limited to the particle effects, or animations, or a specific combination.
But yes. ultimately there are those who won't accept such limiting factors on pretty much anything. And that's why we can never have origin-specific stuff. Thank you for illustrating that point, Bill. =-3
-Rachel-
Natural Origin gets extra damage with both the staff and wand. Therefore, all Natural origin characters are superior to all other origins.
My DP/Dark is natural. Her guns are possessed by demons but without her natural marksmanship, they wouldn't ever hit their targets.
In other words, origins are meaningless. Pick what ya like and roll with it. It doesn't matter at all. Call your magic powered robot a mutant if you like.
Be well, people of CoH.
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But what about his mutated pirate zombie ninja ballroom-dancing-instructor biological-experiment-gone-awry scientist post-grad sidekick?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
In other words, origins are meaningless. Pick what ya like and roll with it. It doesn't matter at all. Call your magic powered robot a mutant if you like.
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I always wondered about a rock-paper-scissors-type deal wit origins, though I wonder if it could be balance properly
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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Are you sure it's non-functional - or just not mechanically functional?|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
If you power a suit of armor through magic, or a robotic shell through magic it is a -magic- origin, regardless of what the resultant golem looks like. Would this golem have shoulder mounted rail cannons and eye-beams to fire magic balls of fire from? Why would it rely on the shoulder-mounted rail cannon, which is non-functional by the way, to fire a magic attack?
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"We learned as we grew, the source growing stronger as well. With the advent of crossbows, guns and cannon, we could no longer rely on the mystic swordsman - they would be torn apart before they reached the foe.
"At first, we tried just opening a hole in the armor, letting the energies just spill out at our enemies. This proved fatal to anybody nearby, harmful more to those we swore to defend, wiping out families and nearly driving us to extinction. We learned we needed guides and a focus. You know the popular image of wizards using wands or a staff? That's partially from your ancestors. Though, given Church attitudes towards wizards, we adapted the form of guns soon after their introduction...."
Those eye and shoulder-cannon? Guides and focuses for the energy to direct it the way it's needed.
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But yes. ultimately there are those who won't accept such limiting factors on pretty much anything. And that's why we can never have origin-specific stuff. Thank you for illustrating that point, Bill. =-3 -Rachel- |
Though your wording's a bit off. "Origin-specific" - or "origin-suggestive," perhaps, is fine to start with - what won't fly, for me, is "origin restricted" "origin locked."
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At this point, though, it sounds more like you're specifically trying to create a character which flies in the face of the concept... And I do mean -specifically-! Every thing I point out you create another layer of RP balloon to seal up the hole... And it's understandable.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Are you sure it's non-functional - or just not mechanically functional?
"We learned as we grew, the source growing stronger as well. With the advent of crossbows, guns and cannon, we could no longer rely on the mystic swordsman - they would be torn apart before they reached the foe. "At first, we tried just opening a hole in the armor, letting the energies just spill out at our enemies. This proved fatal to anybody nearby, harmful more to those we swore to defend, wiping out families and nearly driving us to extinction. We learned we needed guides and a focus. You know the popular image of wizards using wands or a staff? That's partially from your ancestors. Though, given Church attitudes towards wizards, we adapted the form of guns soon after their introduction...." Those eye and shoulder-cannon? Guides and focuses for the energy to direct it the way it's needed. Though your wording's a bit off. "Origin-specific" - or "origin-suggestive," perhaps, is fine to start with - what won't fly, for me, is "origin restricted" "origin locked." |
As for the "Origin Restricted or locked" things? That's what Origin-Specific means.... It's specifically tied to one origin.
There is no way to make an "Origin Suggestive" animation set which justifies a player's use of origin if it's available to all origins. And players (at least some!) won't accept any origin-locked concepts, even if they get neat toys with -their- origin.
I, for example, don't make Ninja characters. though I do make quite a few "Natural" heroes. So why does the Natural Booster have to be ninjas? My does the magic booster have a ton of -Clothing- options when my magic character isn't a wizard or a sorceror, but instead inherently magical?
Origin Suggestive pieces tend to focus in on specific concepts without making it -too- pointed or tied intrinsically to the character. Either we have costume pieces and power animations that sort of lean towards origins or we tie them directly to the origins.
The former leaves Origins as a mostly hollow shell of unimportance which barely means -anything- outside of a system of behind the curtains improvements to a player's powers.
The latter has people yelling and hollering about things being too specific or too tied up into Origins leaving them "Restricted".
If you don't want things tied up that "Lock" creativity then by all means petition for non-unique names, all costume pieces unlocked without using TFs or Merit rewards or even random drops or Vet rewards.
If you don't mind all of those locks blocking people's creativity... what is it that gets your goat about this one?
-Rachel-
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Aside from the name thing which I don't care about either way, hell yes I want costumes to not be locked behind anything.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
If you don't want things tied up that "Lock" creativity then by all means petition for non-unique names, all costume pieces unlocked without using TFs or Merit rewards or even random drops or Vet rewards.
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Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
I think they'll be important, either for the Incarnate system, or for other types of future content - the AE already scans you for your origin, as well as your AT and gender, and gender-based text was added to some of the Cimerora missions - so it seems that now the gender/origin/AT recognition tech is in the game, it'll be expanded and used for other things outside the AE and the Cimerora missions.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Because, of course, it's the character I choose to create, one which would not be doable under your proposal.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
At this point, though, it sounds more like you're specifically trying to create a character which flies in the face of the concept... And I do mean -specifically-! Every thing I point out you create another layer of RP balloon to seal up the hole... And it's understandable.
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| As for the "Origin Restricted or locked" things? That's what Origin-Specific means.... It's specifically tied to one origin. |
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| There is no way to make an "Origin Suggestive" animation set which justifies a player's use of origin if it's available to all origins. And players (at least some!) won't accept any origin-locked concepts, even if they get neat toys with -their- origin. |
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| I, for example, don't make Ninja characters. though I do make quite a few "Natural" heroes. So why does the Natural Booster have to be ninjas? My does the magic booster have a ton of -Clothing- options when my magic character isn't a wizard or a sorceror, but instead inherently magical? |
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Origin Suggestive pieces tend to focus in on specific concepts without making it -too- pointed or tied intrinsically to the character. Either we have costume pieces and power animations that sort of lean towards origins or we tie them directly to the origins. The former leaves Origins as a mostly hollow shell of unimportance which barely means -anything- outside of a system of behind the curtains improvements to a player's powers. The latter has people yelling and hollering about things being too specific or too tied up into Origins leaving them "Restricted". If you don't want things tied up that "Lock" creativity then by all means petition for non-unique names, all costume pieces unlocked without using TFs or Merit rewards or even random drops or Vet rewards. If you don't mind all of those locks blocking people's creativity... what is it that gets your goat about this one? -Rachel- |
IF a new game were being started, with FULL disclosure about what origins will affect, what they restrict, what won't be available, etc. then maybe - *maybe* - I'd be inclined to give the idea some leeway. At this point, however? It's like coming up with a new law saying I can't purchase an imported car because I drove a Ford 25 years ago.
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Pokemon? lol
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
I always wondered about a rock-paper-scissors-type deal wit origins, though I wonder if it could be balance properly
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Actually it's like saying you can't put the shell of a Chrysler Town and Country on the frame of a VW Bug. Though you can still pimp out that VW with compatible parts. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
It's like coming up with a new law saying I can't purchase an imported car because I drove a Ford 25 years ago.
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I missed you, Bill! *hugs!*
-Rachel-
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That's what I don't get. What does it matter between what origin you are and what you can use as a result? Is there a difference in percentages of the enhancements? |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Mutants can use Mutant, Magic, and Science origin animations.
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the only thing beneficial I can think of is which Quartermaster you happen to be closest to, or I guess if you're mutant and can use magic you get more of a chance of using the drops you wind up with, so there's that....maybe I just answered my own question, thanks Beyeajus.
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Natural. This lets you choose staff or wand based on which one fits your costume better.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
But what about his mutated pirate zombie ninja ballroom-dancing-instructor biological-experiment-gone-awry scientist post-grad sidekick?
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Be well, people of CoH.
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Have to disagree. If you were looking at a VW bug frame, you'd have its measurements, compatible engines, and information on which you could make an informed choice as to if it would suit your wants and needs before ever considering fitting a minivan's shell on it - or purchasing or deciding to use the frame in the first place. You would be making an informed decision from step 1, not having it suddenly change for something you already own. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Actually it's like saying you can't put the shell of a Chrysler Town and Country on the frame of a VW Bug. Though you can still pimp out that VW with compatible parts.
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Now, sure, you could just pick it up without looking at any of that, in which case it'd be the individual completely ignoring available information - the point being, though, that the information would be there from the start, not changing years after the fact.
Thus the comment above on "if we were looking at a *new* game, then maybe."
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I missed you, Bill! *hugs!* -Rachel- |
Missed ya too. Know you've been rather preoccupied, though.
These are all magical robots:
Front: Thousand-Faceted Nelumbo, made of crystalline adamant. Depicted weilding a crystalburst lance.
Middle (Left): Dreadful Adjudicator of Law, made of soulsteel. Not depicted with a weapon, but he's got an integrated arsenal system including an assault crossbow about as big as he is.
Middle (Center left): Lissome Avid Engineer, made of starmetal. She has a beamklave. Yes. She's a magical robot who uses a lightsaber.
Middle (Center right): Fair-Spoken Rishi, made of orichalcum. He casts ze magic missiles. (... and he's a politician)
Middle (Right): Excessively Righteous Blossom, made of moonsilver. The hilt of his big-*** sword is a crossbow.
Back: Stern Whip of Industry, made of red jade. And yes, he's to-scale with all of the other characters in the image.
Oh, and they all live in Autochthon. They are robots. This makes them, obviously, "Autobots"
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Another throwback or possible hint of future Origins having a bigger role can be found in the Rikti. Story wise Rikti are weak against magic hence Vanguard using mages and Magic/tech weapons.
To make things fair we would almost need two Origins choices a type of Dual Origin hero if you will. For example a Witch character defender using Magic to cast Empathy healing. To defend herself she uses a Natural Dual Pistol.
Another example of Dual Origin Hero is a Natural Assault rifle Blaster using Tech Devices.
Just to make things clear I DON'T want this I'm just pointing out that such would be more logical then the way things are.
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Just a note - I've seen that ninja helmet make a wicked looking tech helm. All it needed was one of the old visors.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I, for example, don't make Ninja characters. though I do make quite a few "Natural" heroes. So why does the Natural Booster have to be ninjas? My does the magic booster have a ton of -Clothing- options when my magic character isn't a wizard or a sorceror, but instead inherently magical?
-Rachel- |
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Exactly! I made a awesome looking robot suit with that and a couple goggles from the science pack and one of the gas masks.
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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Just a note - I've seen that ninja helmet make a wicked looking tech helm. All it needed was one of the old visors.
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Join the Advocates of Fate on Infinity today!
@Inconclusive
Whether it's completely altered (Tech Robot sniping with laser eyes, firing fire-blasts from shoulder cannons, etc) Or just a change in the particle physics (Magic character flinging "Rune of Power" styled attacks)
And then have each origin tied to specific ones and the correlated origins.
I.E. A Mutant character can use Mutant, Science, and Magic animations for their powers. A Natural character can use Natural, Magic, and Tech animations. Etc. Basically if you can use a DO with a cross-origin you can use an animation with a cross-origin.
Opinions?
-Rachel-
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!