City of Stagnation - Beating the Status Quo
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2010-03-26 12:43 in Suggestions and Ideas
I agree. I'd like to see things change/get resolved from time to time. Faultline's revamp was a sort of step in that direction. I think Boomtown and Dark Astoria, in particular, could use some progression. Boomtown should've been rebuilt or something by now. And surely we should be concerned with actually pushing back the fog of Dark Astoria and perhaps freeing trapped citizens (or their ghosts - the details of that catastrophic event are fuzzy to me).
Erect a force field dome around the Pit and repopulate the Hollows.
Clean up Crey's Folly.
Have that damned Giant Robot launch from that mountain in Striga for a change.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Now normally, I'd argue, but really, if you just lowered the level requirement for Ouroboros then opened up the older version of the content that way, then, bada-bing, you don't even need to worry about it being lost forever.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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That's pretty much my point - have the "old" content, whether it's story arcs, task forces or whatnot accessible through Ouroboros.|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Now normally, I'd argue, but really, if you just lowered the level requirement for Ouroboros then opened up the older version of the content that way, then, bada-bing, you don't even need to worry about it being lost forever.
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And nuts to "lower", why not remove it altogether?
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To ensure that you suffer the misery of pre-travel power life to -some- extent. ^_^|
Originally Posted by Quinch
That's pretty much my point - have the "old" content, whether it's story arcs, task forces or whatnot accessible through Ouroboros.
And nuts to "lower", why not remove it altogether? |
To the topic at hand; This is a conversation I've had with many people on -many- different occassions, and I've got to say, I agree with Quinch.
I could understand, for the sake of kindness to the content writers, not resolving some of the major plots to finality, but -some- storyline development would be nice.
The RWZ stories, for instance, are quite well written. I know them backward, forward, and left to right. I'd like the story of that zone to progress.
More content is good (*cough* GR *cough*). A sense of dynamic development in existing content would be even better.
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I've always thought Ouroboros should be accessible at all levels, with the teleports unlocking as you level up. Levels 1 - 9 could access Atlas, Levels 10 - 19 could access Atlas and Skyway (if they added more etc). |
Originally Posted by Cade Lawson
To ensure that you suffer the misery of pre-travel power life to -some- extent. ^_^
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I agree with the OP, it would be fun to move things along a bit.
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Well the tech is there...
...admittedly it's in another MMO...
WoW uses phasing tech.
For example say I haven't completed the intro quests for a zone, I see the keep under seige, the undead and human soldiers battling it out, frost drakes circling overhead to occasionally swoop down and bombard the battlements. Now as the quests progress, let's say I do the quest chain which clears out the undead ground forces and bolsters the alliance soldiers numbers. The area than phases into a different state where the ground forces are gone and there's now an increased number of alliance patrols.
Once I've completed all the quest chains for that area, the keep is now a safe haven and a staging point to launching the attack to the next area. However someone who has just come into the area and not completed any of the quests still sees it as a warzone.
Lets take this into CoH. Now lets say you complete the Lady Grey TF which is the culmination of the entire RWZ storyarc, now instead of Vanguard being besieged, they're outposts are clear and the Rikti are all but fought back to the valley with the crashed mothership. Vanguard troops are clearing out the rest of the troublemakers in the warzone (Arachnos, Council and Malta/KoA) instead of just fighting Rikti.
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But what about the people who haven't completed the LGTF yet? Are they not allowed to do it because the purpose of the TF no longer exists? |
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Well the tech is there...
...admittedly it's in another MMO... WoW uses phasing tech. For example say I haven't completed the intro quests for a zone, I see the keep under seige, the undead and human soldiers battling it out, frost drakes circling overhead to occasionally swoop down and bombard the battlements. Now as the quests progress, let's say I do the quest chain which clears out the undead ground forces and bolsters the alliance soldiers numbers. The area than phases into a different state where the ground forces are gone and there's now an increased number of alliance patrols. Once I've completed all the quest chains for that area, the keep is now a safe haven and a staging point to launching the attack to the next area. However someone who has just come into the area and not completed any of the quests still sees it as a warzone. Lets take this into CoH. Now lets say you complete the Lady Grey TF which is the culmination of the entire RWZ storyarc, now instead of Vanguard being besieged, they're outposts are clear and the Rikti are all but fought back to the valley with the crashed mothership. Vanguard troops are clearing out the rest of the troublemakers in the warzone (Arachnos, Council and Malta/KoA) instead of just fighting Rikti. |
So, ONE team gets to run the TF in RWZ like it is now, but everyone else after that has to go through Ouroboros to do it? How is that fair? It would eliminate the cooperative nature of that TF because Hero and VIllain Ouroboros zones are seperate.
Also, once the TF gets moved to Ouroboros upon completion by that first team, a new player may never realize it even exists, because the game does nothing to tell you what missions are available in Ouro.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'm pretty sure this is one of the reasons coh doesn't have people continuously playing it and more of people leaving for a while then coming back. I've read an article about coh saying. "How many times have you had to save the police chief's daughter from gang war" or something like that. The missions really do get repetitive. I don't know. We just need some sort of change
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@Inconclusive
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You clearly missed the part that said "Once I've completed all the quest chains for that area, the keep is now a safe haven and a staging point to launching the attack to the next area. However someone who has just come into the area and not completed any of the quests still sees it as a warzone."|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
But what about the people who haven't completed the LGTF yet? Are they not allowed to do it because the purpose of the TF no longer exists?
So, ONE team gets to run the TF in RWZ like it is now, but everyone else after that has to go through Ouroboros to do it? How is that fair? It would eliminate the cooperative nature of that TF because Hero and VIllain Ouroboros zones are seperate. Also, once the TF gets moved to Ouroboros upon completion by that first team, a new player may never realize it even exists, because the game does nothing to tell you what missions are available in Ouro. |
So while yes, I have completed the RWZ storyline and thus the RWZ looks different to ME, it's a personal thing, only those that have completed the LGTF will see that version, however for everyone else the warzone is still it's normal old self, once THEY complete the LGTF then it changes for them as well.
It's not a one time only thing, that once it's done, nobody can ever do it again, instead the warzone is 'phased' there are two phases 'warzone version' and 'LGTF completed version' people who haven't done the LGTF see the warzone version while those that have see the LGTF complete version.
The quests WoW uses this on are the 'big cinematic quests' heck the first quest to introduce it has it's own cinematic once you complete it.
HOWEVER the fly in the ointment is that WoW quests are not repeatable whereas the LGTF IS...so I'm not sure how that would work.
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So the devs would have to make sure all the missions in the pre-LGTF warzone exist in post-LGTF version. Because you can complete the LGTF without ever having done ANY of the warzone.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
You clearly missed the part that said "Once I've completed all the quest chains for that area, the keep is now a safe haven and a staging point to launching the attack to the next area. However someone who has just come into the area and not completed any of the quests still sees it as a warzone."
So while yes, I have completed the RWZ storyline and thus the RWZ looks different to ME, it's a personal thing, only those that have completed the LGTF will see that version, however for everyone else the warzone is still it's normal old self, once THEY complete the LGTF then it changes for them as well. It's not a one time only thing, that once it's done, nobody can ever do it again, instead the warzone is 'phased' there are two phases 'warzone version' and 'LGTF completed version' people who haven't done the LGTF see the warzone version while those that have see the LGTF complete version. The quests WoW uses this on are the 'big cinematic quests' heck the first quest to introduce it has it's own cinematic once you complete it. HOWEVER the fly in the ointment is that WoW quests are not repeatable whereas the LGTF IS...so I'm not sure how that would work. |
Also you second point is a major issue that is probably the show stopper.
I would not be willing to lose the co-op or start point (read I do NOT want the the LGTF moved to OROBORUS) for something like this. And most certainly not the repeatability of the TF itself.
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So, in other words, someone who has NOT completed the LGTF can never team in RWZ with someone who HAS? Since they're in different versions of the zone, it stands to reason that they wouldn't be permitted to team together. |
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
You clearly missed the part that said "Once I've completed all the quest chains for that area, the keep is now a safe haven and a staging point to launching the attack to the next area. However someone who has just come into the area and not completed any of the quests still sees it as a warzone."
So while yes, I have completed the RWZ storyline and thus the RWZ looks different to ME, it's a personal thing, only those that have completed the LGTF will see that version, however for everyone else the warzone is still it's normal old self, once THEY complete the LGTF then it changes for them as well. It's not a one time only thing, that once it's done, nobody can ever do it again, instead the warzone is 'phased' there are two phases 'warzone version' and 'LGTF completed version' people who haven't done the LGTF see the warzone version while those that have see the LGTF complete version. |
Now spread that idea across the rest of the game. All the Task Forces have an effect on the zones you enter.
To use my example before:
I have completed the Synapse Task Force. The effect of completing this TF is that Clockwork will never spawn in open zones anymore. You have defeated the thing that allows them to function, so they just don't work anymore. Don't have the Knight Errant badge? Too bad. Paladins don't get built anymore because Clockwork no longer function.
Since Clocks no longer spawn in open zones for me, I now enter different versions of Atlas Park, Galaxy City, Kings Row, Steel Canyon, Skyway City, Perez Park, Boomtown, and Faultline than someone who hasn't done the Synapse TF. Now no one who hasn't completed that TF can team with me in any of those zones.
Also, since Clocks no longer spawn in open zones, I just made the Numina TF impossible for me to complete. Because you have to kill clockwork in the streets of Steel Canyon in order to finish the TF. If I didn't get the Clockstopper, Knight Errant, and Gearsmasher badges prior to running Synapse, I can never get them, because I will never again encounter the enemies I need to defeat to earn those badges.
If I didn't get Gearsmasher and can't complete Numina, that's 2 accolades that I can never earn.
Another problem: The servers would start crashing a LOT more.
Why, you ask? Because now the server has to check every single character's badge count every single time that character zones to determine which version of that zone they enter. Since people are constantly zoning somewhere on the server at all times of day, it's going to put a LOT more strain on the system.
See how something like this could become a problem?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Indeed I did say the key problem was that everything in City of Heroes is repeatable and strictly non-linear in style...it's a rather major problem. Indeed in WoW you can't team with people who are earlier on in the quest chain than you because they can't see the things you see and you can't see the things they see. A certain unique Spider model (for hunters who had spider pets) which can only be gotten when you first come into the area, if you complete the quest chain you can't see it and thus can't get it anymore.
The way WoW uses it is that it's used sparringly, only for single quest area (the keep for example) OR to remove a single NPC (players who have done the fight for undercity hordeside version can nolonger see the Demon prince due to him turning traitor and the group killing him), they don't affect the whole game as it would have to in City of Heroes/City of villains because as heroes or villains your actions have a wider impact.
Hmm good points people...didn't think this all the way through obviously...still more than man enough to admit I got it wrong.
Essentially what this would do is introduce a game mechaic in which who you are allowed to team with is determined by which badges you have.
Currently, someone saying "You can't join my team because you don't have badge X" is just being an elitist jerk.
If the idea of different versions of zones based on completing things were to happen, it would make "You can't join my team because you don't have badge X" a LITERAL reality. Not only can you not join that persons team.....you can't even SEE that person's team. Forced elitism would NOT be a good thing for CoH.
Imagine a brand new player's experience upon logging in for the first time. Now, obviously, this player hasn't done anything at all yet. Think people complain that the game is empty NOW? Wait until everyone is in different versions of zones than each other.
The reason that works in WoW is exactly the reason it WON'T work here. In WoW it is expected that you are going to complete an area of the game within a certain level range, and never return to that area of the game. In CoH the game world is much smaller, and characters across all level ranges share the same area of land.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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what???
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Originally Posted by Shuriken_BladeX
I'm pretty sure this is one of the reason coh doesn't have as many players as we do. We have a lot but I've read an article about coh saying. "How many times have you had to save the police chief's daughter from gang war" or something like that. The missions really do get repetitive. I don't know. We just need some sort of change
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Whoops, wrote that when I had just woke up, but I meant to say when most people start off in this game some begin to notice that the missions are very repetitive. It can get really annoying sometime.
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
what???
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@Inconclusive
Phasing tech could be altered slightly, to allow for more dynamic zones, whilst still allowing the non-linear nature of COH to shine through - have the phase for a team set dynamically according to the leader's phase. Other teammates are assigned to that phase while they are on the team - while solo, they use their own progress to determine the phase. Some handwaving would be needed (hopping between temporal streams, etc) to explain how you can see different parts of the story in a different order, depending on how much (and who with) you team.
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They should address that after GR.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It would eliminate the cooperative nature of that TF because Hero and VIllain Ouroboros zones are seperate.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
It was mentioned in one of the podcasts that actively track what content is being played the most/least and base developments off that. An interesting concept, doesnt reall add much to this discussion though ^^
One of the most frequent complaints I overhear from the older players is the fact that the game never changes. I'm not referring to lack of content, though in a way it is. The problem is, that the city never changes. Lieutenant Wincott will always be looking for his son, Skulls and Hellions will always war in Perez, Azuria will never know who the Circle of Thorns really are, the truth about the Rikti invasion will always remain a secret and countless other current events that get resolved, yet don't.
Ultimately, no matter what anyone does or what happens, Paragon is a city where nothing changes. The rationale for that is a solid one - resolving any ongoing "problem" permanently would remove it from the pool of available content, leading to resentment of no longer being able to run something, or not being able to ever run it due to joining the game too late.
But the thing is - this is the superhero world. Nothing is ever really gone, but more practically, there would be nothing preventing us from accessing past content in our rented time machine - Ouroboros. If we wish to travel back in time to before the Vanguard and the Rikti agreed to a truce, or Croatoa no longer sliding into the spirit world, we simply travel back in time to the point where it was still happening.
Thus, I urge the devs to consider finally resolving the more profound plot points that have been undone by countless heroes by now. As things stand, the story of Paragon City looks like a painting of a storm - violent, tumultuous, exciting, but beyond superficial appearance, stagnant. We already have the ability to let our characters revisit the past - so with that in mind, it's long past time to move the city forward.