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Depends on the set. No matter what though, only a few powers are best slotted for their secondary effect. You usually still want to go for damage. For example, in electric blast, only short circuit and thunderous blast are worth slotting for end mod. If you want to take advantage of your set's secondary effect, you should take a look at the set, figure out which powers have the most effective debuffs, and spam those. For example, psychic blast can put out a ridiculous amount of damage mitigation by spamming psychic scream and psionic tornado.
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Originally Posted by Adelie
The purpose of blasts for a defender... is it damage or is it the secondary effect of the blasts?
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I am actually pondering doing a sapper build - kin/electric defender? Or is elec/elec blaster just as good?
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Well if the Defender AT is what you want, then Kinetic/Electric would be the best sapper choice in my opinion. Once you hit the mid 30s, you will start to see some serious punch to your blasts. The biggest drawback will be your weakness to mezz effects, so pack around break-frees, ALWAYS ! Build up some decent Ranged, Melee and AoE defense (in that order) and you should be pretty solid.|
Originally Posted by Adelie
I am actually pondering doing a sapper build - kin/electric defender? Or is elec/elec blaster just as good?
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I have both an Emp/Electric and a Kin/Electric and the latter will be much more powerful solo, once he is IO'd out. The former is more defensive as a group player, while the Kinetic is more offensive. They both Sap pretty well, I just feel the Kinetic does it better because he keeps 2 sapping powers while exemp even to 24, while the Emp/Electric loses his second sapping power below 44. At 50 they will sap about the same.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
The purpose of the blasts is both damage and secondary effects.
As Garent said, generally slot for damage (plus acc endrec and recharge) as you would any other attack.
Taking the example of dark blast.
As Tohit debuff is schedule B, 3 slotting it is going to only give you 1.56 fold the debuff. Much better to fire off a second attack to get the double debuff straight away.
Darks twin cones work very nicely together for a large coverage of AOE -tohit
One secondary effect not covered yet is slow. Ice (and Dual Pistols) slow can be slotted, but even though slow is schedule A, the -recharge is not covered by the enhancements, so again its just better to get a 2nd attack off.
All IMHo of course
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
You can slot for -Res in Sonic Blast, kind of. Slot for Recharge over damage and you can get more coverage of your secondary efefcts on multiple targets.
And Kin/Elec will be the best Sapper IMO.
Kin/Elec will drain a boss very fast (instantly, in fact), but for AoE Sapping, Elec/Elec Blasters or Elec/Energy Blasters will be the better option.
Defenders can AoE Sap as well, Kin/Ele/Ele is Transference/Short Circuit/Power Sink
Granted, you wouldn't get AoE Sap until the end of your career just about...
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Sure, but the Defender version of Power Sink is at twice the recharge of the Blaster version. The Blaster will be killing faster, sapping faster, and will be draining the same amount as the Defender, so if sapping is what someone is interested in, the Blaster will be the better choice until the Devs remember that we're supposed to be better at Endurance Drains. |
Originally Posted by Miyabi
Defenders can AoE Sap as well, Kin/Ele/Ele is Transference/Short Circuit/Power Sink
Granted, you wouldn't get AoE Sap until the end of your career just about... |
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The purpose is whatever you make it. Slotting the blasts for debuffs instead of damage will help the team somewhat less than slotting for damage, but still more than Defenders who never slot or use the blasts at all. Defenders are a support archetype that focuses primarily on buff/debuff and ranged damage, with some hard and soft control. You are the one who decides which aspects to emphasize. My advice is to build and play the Defender in a way that is fun for you. Since you're planning to team i would suggest playing to each set's strengths, but beyond that do whatever you like.|
Originally Posted by Adelie
The purpose of blasts for a defender... is it damage or is it the secondary effect of the blasts? If the latter maybe I could get into defendering. <snip> Any other ideas here?
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My Defenders all aim for a balance of support and offense, but that doesn't mean yours have to as well.
From the Defender character creation screen: " The Defender tends to help his allies, and attack his foes, from a distance. The Defender excels at powers that assist friends, but can also hinder his enemies. The Defender is able to attack at quite a range, however, the Defender is not built for hand to hand. He might be able to dodge a few attacks, but the Defender won't last for long."
If you're having fun and your teammates appreciate what you're doing for them then you're doing it right. (Assuming knowledgeable teammates. Idiot teammates will only notice the most superficial aspects of what you're doing and should be regarded as slightly less intelligent Controller pets.)
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
There are all kinds of synergies:
Cold or Storm with ice blast > ultimate slooooow
Kinetic electric > end drain 
Kin, Storm or Cold with psy blast > turn back the clock on recharge!
Dark/sonic > -resist
Rad/rad > defense debuff on an AVs scale
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Something you may like to go the route of...
Radiation Blast.
With it's -Defense Secondary (admittedly, I find this secondary pretty useless late game), you can slot the -Resist Proc.
Sonic comes with the -Resist build in, and just does it nicely for the whole team. Whether it be the use of Howl on large spawns, or the single target blasts stacking up on the one tough target.
Dual Pistols gives you the variety.
Extra damage on large spawns? FIRE!
Need just a little less damage from the enemies, and killing them just a little faster isn't the answer? CHEM!
Big tough target needs taken down? LETHAL!
As for COLD rounds, I truthfully haven't found a new for them still. I never notice the slows, and for the Primaries with slows in them, that's usually more than enough as it is.
I mean really...Cold Domination doesn't need help with Slows. Storm doesn't seem to need it either.
Dark Miasma, I'd rather stack the -DMG from both sets, or go for the added damage.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Actually Short Circuit + Transference work well by themselves and they are both AoE. Powersink would let you alternate the two if the team is moving really fast. Of course if they are that fast, the end drain is pretty unimportant. My Emp/Electric needs Powersink to drain in two clicks (AoE), but my Kin/Electric can do this without the Epic power (Level 35).
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Originally Posted by Miyabi
Defenders can AoE Sap as well, Kin/Ele/Ele is Transference/Short Circuit/Power Sink
Granted, you wouldn't get AoE Sap until the end of your career just about... |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Transference doesn't drain in an AoE, it only drains from the target. The pseudopet summoned under the target however does grant endurance to you and your allies in an AoE.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Actually Short Circuit + Transference work well by themselves and they are both AoE.
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oops. My Bad. Thanks Ethric
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Originally Posted by Ethric
Transference doesn't drain in an AoE, it only drains from the target. The pseudopet summoned under the target however does grant endurance to you and your allies in an AoE.
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BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Defenders are Buff-Debuff/Ranged. They are not Buff-Debuff/Debuff. While the secondary effects are certainly useful, the concept of the Defender is around dealing damage. If you want team support, a Controller has more tools for that role.
That said, the Defender works best if he can buff his damage, for the very reason that his buffs are his strength. Ranged is Secondary, unlike Corruptors. So those Defenders that lack self damage boosts, FF and Empathy, can't really support their secondary role as well as an Offender.
So your best bet if you want to blast is to pick a Primary that best supports your blasts. Rad, Kin, or Storm are really popular choices. And Sonic Secondary is going to give you your best damage. Although with those Primaries you don't really NEED to Sonic -Res, the other options can be just as good. (It's really for the Primaries with low -Res that Sonic's secondary effect makes up for it)
And you should slot your damage, whether you want to deal damage or not. Do you really want to waste Endurance on an attack that only does 50% of its potential damage? It's probably better to take a few attacks and slot them well than to spread out slots among a bunch of attacks and not put any Damage in any of them. Save the secondary effect slots for the powers in your Primary instead, you'll get way more boost out of them.
By being a Defender Junkie I can chirp in on this subject.
First of all, the fact that the Blast sets turn you off isnt anything new for many people when it comes to playing a Defender.
The major diffrence that you might not be seeing is that Defenders are the Blasters version of Tanks.Iv played Blasters as well as Defenders and I must say that Blasters with there weak solo survivability and the need for baby sitters leaves them something to be desired.
Sure, they can dish out the damage, but I honestly dont belive that pure damage along with NO survivability makes a very good AT.Jumping around helps, but it wont stop death if you have a stray baddie that the Tanker missed and you dont notice till its too late.
Defenders on the other hand can dish out respectable damage and give support to them selves, and the team.Like Tankers, they trade off half the damage vs what a Blaster can dish out for alot more survivability.I dont see any Blasters running around doing 8 man solo missions.I however see alot of teams that are Blaster heavy waiting around looking for a H34lZoR and a Tank before they do any missions.
I for one dont feel the need for a Tank or a so called "Healer" when I load in one of my Defenders.Good combonations and understanding of your AT can show you that +damage -Survival ATs cant handle most of what a Tank or Defender can handle by them self.
If Defenders just dont do enough damage for you, then you have a couple options.
1) Carry around full Trays of Purple Inspirations.
2) Dont bother with a Defender and stick with a lesser class like a Blaster.
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What you're neglecting is that this is only true for SOME defender primaries. Some sets (Traps, FF and Dark spring to mind) can, in their own way, prevent sufficient damage from getting through to "tank" but not all sets can.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
The major diffrence that you might not be seeing is that Defenders are the Blasters version of Tanks.Iv played Blasters as well as Defenders and I must say that Blasters with there weak solo survivability and the need for baby sitters leaves them something to be desired.
Sure, they can dish out the damage, but I honestly dont belive that pure damage along with NO survivability makes a very good AT.Jumping around helps, but it wont stop death if you have a stray baddie that the Tanker missed and you dont notice till its too late. Defenders on the other hand can dish out respectable damage and give support to them selves, and the team.Like Tankers, they trade off half the damage vs what a Blaster can dish out for alot more survivability.I dont see any Blasters running around doing 8 man solo missions.I however see alot of teams that are Blaster heavy waiting around looking for a H34lZoR and a Tank before they do any missions. |
Kinetics has relatively little damage prevention (a single target -dam, an AoE heal and a PBAoE knockback). Similarly while Empathy can provide a decent amount of mitigation through Fortitude it can't do this for itself or even the entire team, so solo or on a large team it is still somewhat reliant of healing (which is the weakest form of mitigation). Trick Arrow can provide a decent chunk of mitigation but it doesn't provide much mitigation against the alpha strike so chances are someone is going to lose quite a bit of health there.
I could go on but I think you see what I mean. SOME defenders can provide sufficient damage mitigation all on their own to give a tank style of play but plenty of others have little more mitigation (especially personal mitigation) than a well played blaster.
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On the other hand, many of those can boost their damage to be close to that of a Blaster. And even Kinetics has a self heal, which Blasters lack. (Unless they take Aid Self, and that's still going to be beaten by a Defender build that plays to Kin's strengths, such as Kin/Electric) |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I could go on but I think you see what I mean. SOME defenders can provide sufficient damage mitigation all on their own to give a tank style of play but plenty of others have little more mitigation (especially personal mitigation) than a well played blaster.
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The short answer is that it IS dependent on the build. Not every Defender (or Corruptor) is going to do as well as a Blaster, solo. OTOH, Defenders are a lot more flexible, allowing more of a tanker-like "wear them down with my near invulnerability" feel, or more of an offensive blaster feel. The Buff/Debuff sets in general are like that, they are far more variable in capabilities than either Melee, Ranged, Control or Defense sets.
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In my opinion the latter, with a BIT of the former.|
Originally Posted by Adelie
The purpose of blasts for a defender... is it damage or is it the secondary effect of the blasts?
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In my opinion, a Defender should slot for damage in a "solo" build, and slot for the secondary effect in a "team" build.
And if they are using a secondary that HAS no secondary effect, or a secondary that has one that's combat related (i.e. Sonic or Archery) that person should make them into an Offender, or pick a different secondary.
But that's just me, I'm a Purist. But its your $15, do what you want.
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No argument there. On the other hand Blasters tend to get more control than Defenders and a much more powerful alpha strike (from Build Up) so I think it evens out. My main argument with Fire_Minded's post was his assertion that all Defenders can tank (or even pseudo-tank) and that Blasters have no survivability.
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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
On the other hand, many of those can boost their damage to be close to that of a Blaster. And even Kinetics has a self heal, which Blasters lack. (Unless they take Aid Self, and that's still going to be beaten by a Defender build that plays to Kin's strengths, such as Kin/Electric)
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So you haven't played a blaster with Ice, /ice, /mm, Sonic, etc... Just wondering because my blasters solo on the same settings my scrappers do.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Minded
Iv played Blasters as well as Defenders and I must say that Blasters with there weak solo survivability and the need for baby sitters leaves them something to be desired.
Sure, they can dish out the damage, but I honestly dont belive that pure damage along with NO survivability makes a very good AT. |
My first 50 hero was a pure emp where I used ss and stealth and never attacked. I only ever had the first attack pick in my build until epics. Noone seemed to mind but it was freedom.
Just saying cause you said you wanted to play team support.
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Well, one can say that the survivability of a Blaster is less than that of a Defender. Even given a Blaster's control capabilities, Defenders often have control capabilities as well, and they have more direct forms of mitigation. (Or recuperation, if you don't consider healing to be mitigation) |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
My main argument with Fire_Minded's post was his assertion that all Defenders can tank (or even pseudo-tank) and that Blasters have no survivability.
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Blaster control powers seem to be single target, and more mitigation oriented. Defender control powers are usually more AoE oriented, and do not provide as much mitigation. However, they do allow greater positional control, which helps keep foes out of melee.
The extremes, that robustness means tanking, and that lack of robustness means fragility, is certainly not as true. There are Blasters that are survivable, and Defenders that can't tank. But I would say even the Defender that can't tank will have more robustness and less damage than the Blaster that can survive through controls or slows. That's really innate to the concept.
A Corruptor, on the other hand, might be able to exceed the damage of a more defensively built Blaster. Not really sure, but that would make sense to me. Also, I'm not even trying to make a comparison where a large team is involved. (A large team of Defenders would obviously greatly outperform the standard damage of a Blaster, but then the same Blaster on a team of Defenders would gain the same benefits from them as well)
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I personally prefer to concentrate my attacks. On a Team build I will choose attacks that have the most powerful Secondary effects, like Irradiate, which has the highest magnitude of -Def debuff, and those that effect the most targets, like say Electron Haze. I will then take less attacks overall than my solo build, skipping several of my single target attacks. |
Originally Posted by Westley
In my opinion, a Defender should slot for damage in a "solo" build, and slot for the secondary effect in a "team" build.
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With less slots, I can concentrate more of them on the fewer attacks, allowing both debuff and damage slotting. That seems like a better choice to me than not slotting for damage on more attacks.
When I want to play a buff set I'll usually go corrupter but every once in a while I want to play team support, and don't feel like playing another controller, so I look at defenders. Every time I do that I wind up turning away. The blasts are why. But I think I may have misconceptualized them.
But failing that, and what defender blasts are usable when slotted towards secondary effect rather than damage? Dark seems obvious (if paired with a +def set) but what others? Sonic you can't slot the -res. Rad, only so much -def is needed. Archery has no secondary effect I know of. Energy just does anoying knockback. Any other ideas here?
The purpose of blasts for a defender... is it damage or is it the secondary effect of the blasts? If the latter maybe I could get into defendering. My dream AT would be a double buff set, like empathy/traps