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So, basically... what they've been doing every issue since CoH's launch.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I believe CoH2 should be exactly the same as CoH1, save the engine.
That's right. It's an insane theory that would be expensive, labor-intensive, and time consuming! But I believe that NCSoft has the money to do it, even if Paragon Studios doesn't have the man-power (or Expertise) for the job. This would be a massive undertaking to design a brand new engine from the ground up which was still backwards compatible with all of the content, costumes, graphical upgrades, and systems of the current version. Upgrade and update as much artwork as is physically possible and roll it out as a free expansion to CoH. Sell the box on the shelves, make some money, and get a whole new crop of players coming in to see the new game without losing any of the great (if dated) content. |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Not -quite-? >.>|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
So, basically... what they've been doing every issue since CoH's launch.
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Firstly: All at once engine overhaul.
Secondly: From what I understand, some things are, quite literally, impossible based on how the engine is structured and a replacement would be needed for that.
So yeah. Complete revamp paid for entirely by NCSoft with a whole new crew putting it together, to avoid losing any advances of content/powersets/etc.
-Rachel-
So no issue releases until CoH2 then? Seeing how I don't expect they'd have the manpower to do this on top of what they currently do (the diversion of work onto Going Rogue has already given us several dull issue releases -- mind you I believe this will ultimately be worth it).
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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"Game engine" is quite possibly the most ambiguous part of any given game that you can name. At any given time, in any given context, speaking to any given developer of the game, the "game engine" will mean something different. The closest thing to coherent you'll get for "all at once engine overhaul" is rewriting the entire game from scratch.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Firstly: All at once engine overhaul.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Secondly: From what I understand, some things are, quite literally, impossible based on how the engine is structured and a replacement would be needed for that.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Devs have said before that things can't be implemented because of the engine limitations. One that comes to mind is fighting the scale of Rulararu.
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You did notice where I specifically put in the line (albeit in the second post) where I'd like to see NCSoft pay in the manhours for this endeavor so that Paragon Studios can continue pumping out the issues... right?|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
So no issue releases until CoH2 then? Seeing how I don't expect they'd have the manpower to do this on top of what they currently do (the diversion of work onto Going Rogue has already given us several dull issue releases -- mind you I believe this will ultimately be worth it).
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
"Game engine" is quite possibly the most ambiguous part of any given game that you can name. At any given time, in any given context, speaking to any given developer of the game, the "game engine" will mean something different. The closest thing to coherent you'll get for "all at once engine overhaul" is rewriting the entire game from scratch.
It's not a matter of possible vs. impossible. It's a matter of man-hour investment vs. return. Paragon Studios could transform CoH into a pixel-for-pixel clone of WoW, but it would take years and would be a stupid thing to do. |
What I would want is for various people to stop complaining about "We need CoH2! We need X!" which can't be handled in the current engine.
As for the rewriting the game from scratch: you're mostly right. A huge portion of the data, however (maps, models, textures, and a few others) Aren't core to the engine and could be transferred over along with pretty much all of the dialogue assuming that the new engine had a compatible graphics engine, physics engine, and dialogue-delivery method.
Power attributes would definitely need to be redefined and other attributes added for wall-crawling or water-running. The combat system would likely be dragged over number-for-number, however.
So yes. It would be a HUGE reinvestment on NCSoft's part which would only pay off if they also put down the money to Advertise their game on TV or at least comics, magazines, and internet media.
So yes. it's a pipe dream. it would probably never happen. But I'd love it if it did!
-Rachel-
Halo scrapped their engine..and thats looking pretty good :P
Join the Advocates of Fate on Infinity today!
@Inconclusive
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However this is the Internet and there will always be this type of person.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
What I would want is for various people to stop complaining about "We need CoH2! We need X!" which can't be handled in the current engine.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
As for the rewriting the game from scratch: you're mostly right. A huge portion of the data, however (maps, models, textures, and a few others) Aren't core to the engine and could be transferred over along with pretty much all of the dialogue assuming that the new engine had a compatible graphics engine, physics engine, and dialogue-delivery method.
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Bottom line is that if the new system is fully backward compatible with the current system, then the return on investment is heavily in the red.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
So yes. it's a pipe dream. it would probably never happen. But I'd love it if it did!
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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While you're point is generally correct, this isn't quite so true in the case of models; especially if you keep the source file around (eg, the *.max, *.3ds, *.mb, *.ma, etc. file containing the scene housing the models you're using). One game may use a different model format than another to actually load, but the team will either write a program which translates for example the MAX file into the desired format, or else the team will create an exporter plugin in order to save to the desired format directly from the modeling program.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
To put it another way, translating a model from one game to another is going to be a very labor intensive job.
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This would be similar to using Photoshop and saving a PSD file with lots of layers and effects and things, and then exporting it to PNG. If you ever want to change the image, or you decide you want to use DDS instead of PNG, the intelligent thing would be to keep the PSD around, always. Apparently, many studios don't keep their source model formats around, though; they'll just create an exporter and importer and work only with the output filetype. But unless the exporter doesn't discard any information (which would negate the need for an exporter in the first place...), such a practice could easily become a problem in the future.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Part of the limitations in our current game have to do with how files are written and read, how maps are built rendered and interacted with, and how the game makes use of stored text strings. In other words, in order to make the kind of improvements you're talking about, yet still use old maps models etc. They would not only have to write a new more robust file system to handle new capabilities, they would have to write translators that converted all the old files into the new formats.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
A huge portion of the data, however (maps, models, textures, and a few others) Aren't core to the engine and could be transferred over along with pretty much all of the dialogue assuming that the new engine had a compatible graphics engine, physics engine, and dialogue-delivery method.
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Even if such a translator worked perfectly, they would have to go in and apply new attributes for the new characteristics that define the kind of improvements you're talking about.
In short, they'd spend more time converting and debugging old code than they would if they wrote all new stuff from scratch, and even then there would likely be legacy errors, or it flat out wouldn't look or work as good as all new assets would.
Let's put it this way, there's a reason the costume designers spend more time on all new items than they do upgrading the older ones. Besides the sturm and drang caused by people who act like you killed their babies when a hairstyle gets revised, the problems inherent in making something "just like the old one, but better" often mean it's a lot easier to make something new instead. And that's an example of the problems just within the same game, not even getting into conversion to a new system.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
My take is, mmos just dont sequel well, and sequeling a mmo that has a number of characters whoa re REALLY attached to their unique characters, it approaches madness.
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Not to mention that creating a sequel MMO is pretty much just splitting your playerbase up. While you may bring in some new players with the shelf presence, the vast majority of CoX2 players would be CoX players. So you're basically just shifting people around, and if one game has too few players, that version will simply tank.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
My take is, mmos just dont sequel well, and sequeling a mmo that has a number of characters whoa re REALLY attached to their unique characters, it approaches madness.
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It's much better to keep improving one game, occasionally adding something to warrant shelf space (CoV, GvE, Mac, Architect, GR).
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
"Engine" gets thrown around more than a beach ball around here, yet no-one ever bothers to define what the term actually means. I trust we all understand that the game does NOT run on a diesel V8 turbo, right?
An easy example I can pull from this very thread is that Rularuu's large form cannot be fought because of the "engine." That's about as meaningless as saying that Skulls can be fought because the engine allows it. It's a sentence, it reads in correct English, but it carries no meaning. Rularuu cannot be fought not because of "the engine," but because of how hit boxes are implemented in, which I actually believe are less "boxes" and more distance from a central point. Certain large enemies have this distance from their central point extended by a fair bit, to prevent it being so deeply buried inside a large object that the object's surface ends up being out of melee range of... Itself.
The problem with Rularuu isn't that he's big, it's that he's long and narrow, at least from what I can gather. At his scale, it's quite possible to make him capable of being fought in melee from 50 feet away unintentionally. If you actually pay attention, what looks like a solution to this problem exists with Arachnos minisubs in Faultline. The sub is all one object, but it has three attack points - one on the bough, one on the conning tower and one on the stern, and your character will hit whichever one is closest. I assume distance is measured off either of those three points. Of course, someone on the scale of Rularuu could still break that system and require either too many points or too large a radius and still not function. But that's still a question of implementation, not a question of "engine."
A lot of other things can't work because of how powers are rigged up. Easiest example is why enemies are always immediately alerted on a miss. A sccessful hit delays AI interaction until it delivers its effect, which is delayed by animation and travel time, but a miss ends the interaction at the failed to-hit roll, which happens BEFORE the animation starts, hence this is when the AI is alerted. A re-write of the entire combat system is theoretically possible, but I can all but guarantee that Castle will personally murder whoever suggested this if he had to export all of his spreadsheets to a new system that worked kind of differently. The amount of errors and bugs such a thing would spawn scares even me, and I'm not the one who's going to have to do it.
We're already getting the practical equivalent to a new graphics engine, so there's no reason to discuss that.
There are a lot of "engines" working together to make the game work, and each has the capacity to be upgraded greatly. However, simply yanking one out and replacing it with another is a MASSIVE investment and a massive risk, to boot.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Update to the graphics engine to allow particles and other physics: check
Update to the power system to allow customisation that wasn't possible origionaly: check
Update to the graphics engine to something closer to current game standards: check.
Major coding changes and map overhaul (removing the sticky out bits on walls) to allow QoL changes to a travel power: Cant see it happening soon, but Paragon studios may find a work around that can be slotted into the current engine. theyre good like that.
Completely reanimated alternatives to all poweranimations to allow alternate animations for all powersets so some people can make an animal skeletoned hero: cant see it happening, more likely to see animal NPCs way before that, as they are locked to powers.
(anyone remember Cryptic promosing "animal" heroes for the other game? whenever you attacked, you stopped animating like an animal until it went passive. Even in a new engine, it means twice the animation work per power.)
Making a new combat engine to remove rooting and redraw, or make other changes to how combat works: A lot of people like combat as it is, it's better than some games, worse than a few, major gameplay changes will alienate a lot of players.
Also, rooting is for balance reasons, and weapon redraw has been improved in newer sets from what i hear, and some powers seem to have been getting alternate animations to avoid forcing redraw (brawl for example).
Is there any other reasons to make cox2 that i missed? because from what i can see, theyre either constantly improving their game to iron out those engine limitations, or changes that require a brand new engine are just QoL things that wont justify the time and money to remake the game.
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Mod_08 Said it best here:|
Originally Posted by Big_Lunk_NA
Update to the graphics engine to allow particles and other physics: check
Update to the power system to allow customisation that wasn't possible origionaly: check Update to the graphics engine to something closer to current game standards: check. Major coding changes and map overhaul (removing the sticky out bits on walls) to allow QoL changes to a travel power: Cant see it happening soon, but Paragon studios may find a work around that can be slotted into the current engine. theyre good like that. Completely reanimated alternatives to all poweranimations to allow alternate animations for all powersets so some people can make an animal skeletoned hero: cant see it happening, more likely to see animal NPCs way before that, as they are locked to powers. (anyone remember Cryptic promosing "animal" heroes for the other game? whenever you attacked, you stopped animating like an animal until it went passive. Even in a new engine, it means twice the animation work per power.) Making a new combat engine to remove rooting and redraw, or make other changes to how combat works: A lot of people like combat as it is, it's better than some games, worse than a few, major gameplay changes will alienate a lot of players. Also, rooting is for balance reasons, and weapon redraw has been improved in newer sets from what i hear, and some powers seem to have been getting alternate animations to avoid forcing redraw (brawl for example). Is there any other reasons to make cox2 that i missed? because from what i can see, theyre either constantly improving their game to iron out those engine limitations, or changes that require a brand new engine are just QoL things that wont justify the time and money to remake the game. |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=213052&page=4
The argument is pointless. Next.
P.s. Thanks for proving my point with the negative rep. d;D
I'm all for CHV2. New graphics engine? Great! Dynamic map creation? Better! More robust costume generator? Sweet!
Doing it in a way that ties into CHV beyond back story in any way? Dumb.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Bill, you're always so sensible. Stop it. d;D
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I'm all for CHV2. New graphics engine? Great! Dynamic map creation? Better! More robust costume generator? Sweet!
Doing it in a way that ties into CHV beyond back story in any way? Dumb. |
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Nope, I tend to skim a lot. Sorry.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
You did notice where I specifically put in the line (albeit in the second post) where I'd like to see NCSoft pay in the manhours for this endeavor so that Paragon Studios can continue pumping out the issues... right?
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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That's why they pay me the big bucks.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
Bill, you're always so sensible. Stop it. d;D
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waitaminute... no they don't. Bastards.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Then why did you spend a large chunk of yesterday afternoon trying to argue they should make a sequel instead of continuing what they're doing?|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
Mod_08 Said it best here:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=213052&page=4 The argument is pointless. Next. P.s. Thanks for proving my point with the negative rep. d;D |
Now you think it's pointless? Way to waffle.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Then why did you spend a large chunk of yesterday afternoon trying to argue they should make a sequel instead of continuing what they're doing?
Now you think it's pointless? Way to waffle. |
I was pointing out the merits of starting from new. NOT that they should stop.
read and comprehend or just stop posting. Keep negative reping you're good at that.
Anyway, i'm done with this thread and I agree with Mod_08.
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I've neg repped you once, every other troll post I simply reported. What other people do when you choose to publically make a fool of yourself is not my concern.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
I was pointing out the merits of starting from new. NOT that they should stop.
read and comprehend or just stop posting. Keep negative reping you're good at that. Anyway, i'm done with this thread and I agree with Mod_08. |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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These days, unless I'm asked directly, I just answer general. The reason for this is that I don't want to assume the tech level of the person I'm responding to.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
While you're point is generally correct, this isn't quite so true in the case of models;
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
especially if you keep the source file around (eg, the *.max, *.3ds, *.mb, *.ma, etc. file containing the scene housing the models you're using).
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
This would be similar to using Photoshop and saving a PSD file with lots of layers and effects and things, and then exporting it to PNG. If you ever want to change the image, or you decide you want to use DDS instead of PNG, the intelligent thing would be to keep the PSD around, always.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Apparently, many studios don't keep their source model formats around, though; they'll just create an exporter and importer and work only with the output filetype.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
But unless the exporter doesn't discard any information (which would negate the need for an exporter in the first place...), such a practice could easily become a problem in the future.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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While guessing that they're using 3DS Max is a reasonable one (for a professional game studio, guessing 'Max' would probably have a 50-60% chance of being correct, 45-50% for 'Maya', and the last 0-5% for 'Other' including things like Blender, Wings, and ZBrush), the game itself wouldn't be looking at the standard 3DS Max save format. 3DS stores more information than the game needs, which is why an exporter or conversion program would be used. In fact, if you look at *cough wheeze hack die*, you'll see that they aren't using MAX files. (Unless the filetype is just renamed, which would be a bit silly. But it's not like I've memorized every 3D modeling program's file format, so I don't put my word at 100% certainty.)
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I'm pretty sure that the base engine is using MAX. There is also the potential problem that some of the source files are still in Cryptic's hands.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I believe CoH2 should be exactly the same as CoH1, save the engine.
That's right. It's an insane theory that would be expensive, labor-intensive, and time consuming! But I believe that NCSoft has the money to do it, even if Paragon Studios doesn't have the man-power (or Expertise) for the job.
This would be a massive undertaking to design a brand new engine from the ground up which was still backwards compatible with all of the content, costumes, graphical upgrades, and systems of the current version.
Upgrade and update as much artwork as is physically possible and roll it out as a free expansion to CoH. Sell the box on the shelves, make some money, and get a whole new crop of players coming in to see the new game without losing any of the great (if dated) content. Then Use the new engine's greatly enhanced capabilities to add in new models, wall-crawling, running on water with super-speed, and other wonderful gadgets that the Devs have been pining for but can't possibly do with the current engine.
The greatest benefit, however: Wipe the Cryptic Studios logo off the loading screens! >_<
-Rachel-