seriously don't base your facts off of other peoples rumors, it works fine just check your combat attribute monitor to see for yourself.
As soon as I get home and launch the game I plan too 
Ill update with my findings...
Watch this space
Level 21 SoA with Stamina (unslotted).
Recovery Rate 2.19%
a) Base 1.84%
b) Stamina 0.44%
a + b = 2.28%
So either the Total Calculator is broken (showing incorrect data), or the Total is correct but the Base value used is not including the Conditioning bonus.
Sent off a Bug report.
All I can say is thank Recluse people are waking up to this. This is one of my pet bugs (along with Super Reflex's "Deflected" bug).
Several months ago I was experimenting on my Bane with Staminaless builds. VEATs get Conditioning so Stamina isn't as needed, right? Wrong!
I just couldn't get the build to work no matter how much Endurance Reduction I used, so I looked into the real numbers on Recovery. The numbers didn't add up. Suspicious, I looked at other VEAT types, they didn't add up either. I looked at the vanilla Archetypes, their numbers all added up. Khelds, they added up.
There was something rotten in VEATmark!
I posted my findings on the forums, and one or two people believed me but most were dismissive, thinking there was nothing strange about VEATs being the only Archetype with "missing" Recovery.
One thing's for certain though: Conditioning doesn't do anything. I'm convinced of that, and I hope it gets fixed.
Like I said, it's one of my pet bugs. 
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
Quote:
Ran the math on this using the base recovery value (1.67%) and the numbers came out to 2.11%. So, it's possible the totals calculator is broken (this has been known to happen at times) or Conditioning isn't giving the full 1.84 EPS it's supposed to. It is giving more than the standard base of 1.67 EPS (the numbers above would suggest it's giving 1.75 EPS, or about half as much as it's supposed to be giving), but it's not giving as much as it's supposed to.
|
Originally Posted by cybermitheral
Level 21 SoA with Stamina (unslotted).
Recovery Rate 2.19% a) Base 1.84% b) Stamina 0.44% a + b = 2.28% So either the Total Calculator is broken (showing incorrect data), or the Total is correct but the Base value used is not including the Conditioning bonus. Sent off a Bug report. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I looked at hte numbers a while back, and Conditioning seems to give next to no bonus at all. It doesnt even have any numbers in the detailed info window, so...*shrug*
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
The SoA inherent is "being frikken awesome". Conditioning is something came up with in beta so people wouldn't complain about not having an inherent.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Only one problem with that: an inherent that is little more than an empty placeholder is no inherent at all. This can and should be fixed.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
Quote:
This is because Conditioning's regeneration and recovery boosts are part of the AT's base stats, not added on later (you'll notice that real numbers lists the base recovery for VEATs at 1.84 EPS while standard ATs are 1.67 EPS). Just like Scrapper or Stalker crits, or Corruptor Scourge, or Controller Containment, the effects of the inherent are coded into powers themselves. For example, look at a Scrapper attack - it'll say (example numbers) 50 lethal damage, 10% chance for 50 lethal damage, or some such.
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I looked at hte numbers a while back, and Conditioning seems to give next to no bonus at all. It doesnt even have any numbers in the detailed info window, so...*shrug*
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
Conditioning, the Power, has no effect. It exists only to give insight into the class table advantages the VEATs have. Their BASE recovery rate is 1.05 and any powers or enhancements improve upon that instead of the normal 1.00. Similarly, their base Regeneration is 0.3 instead of the normal 0.25.
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I looked at hte numbers a while back, and Conditioning seems to give next to no bonus at all. It doesnt even have any numbers in the detailed info window, so...*shrug*
|
Quote:
True for virtually all inherent "powers," whose primary job really is to put an icon into players' buff bars with help text to explain archetype advantages. True (as macskull partially mentions) for Criticals, Containment, Gauntlet, and now Defiance - four of the original five hero-side archetypes. Also true for Assassination and Scourge.
|
Originally Posted by Castle
Conditioning, the Power, has no effect.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Thanks Castle. This increase to the BASE attributes does not appear obvious to many users when looking the Real Numbers stats. Any suggestions from anyone on a way to make this increase more obvious to players?
|
Originally Posted by Castle
Conditioning, the Power, has no effect. It exists only to give insight into the class table advantages the VEATs have. Their BASE recovery rate is 1.05 and any powers or enhancements improve upon that instead of the normal 1.00. Similarly, their base Regeneration is 0.3 instead of the normal 0.25.
|
Quote:
In that case, the real numbers tool should display the base recovery rate as 1.75 EPS, not 1.84 EPS.
|
Originally Posted by Castle
Conditioning, the Power, has no effect. It exists only to give insight into the class table advantages the VEATs have. Their BASE recovery rate is 1.05 and any powers or enhancements improve upon that instead of the normal 1.00. Similarly, their base Regeneration is 0.3 instead of the normal 0.25.
|
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
^This.| In that case, the real numbers tool should display the base recovery rate as 1.75 EPS, not 1.84 EPS. |
I always understood that the BASE was meant to be higher rather than an additional value (ie NOT: Base + Cond + Stam + ....).
But Base (1.67%) * Cond (1.05 [a 5% boost]) = 1.75%
Where does 1.84% come from? 1.84% is a 10% boot over 1.67%.
perhaps the OP has one of the accolades (or set bonuses or Mayhem/safe guard power) that boosts the maximum endurance, since recovery rate is also a function of that.
100%/60s = 1.67 eps (base for toons with 100 max end)
105%/60s = 1.75 eps (base for toons with 105 max end)
1.75eps * 105% = 1.84eps
No, I just checked this out for myself on a Bane with no accolades (or even enhancements for that matter).
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
Hmm, it might be a bug in the Real Numbers display. Although the base recovery is showing as 1.84%/sec, the stamina contribution is showing 0.44%/sec which is what you'd expect for unslotted stamina and VEAT recovery (100/60 * 1.05 * 0.25 = 0.4375) and outside the margin for error on the quoted base number (1.84%/sec * 0.25 = 0.46%/sec). |
Originally Posted by macskull
No, I just checked this out for myself on a Bane with no accolades (or even enhancements for that matter).
|
Plus, the total only makes sense if the 1.84 number is an erroneous display, because 1.84 + 0.44 = 2.28, while 1.75 + 0.44 = 2.19.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
No my Bane has no Bank/Mayhem bonuses or Accolades (got from 1-22 during dbl xp) and 22-24 during regular/epic mishes.
My guess is simply that the real numbers display is incorrect. Of course, it would be nice to buff Conditioning to provide a bit more benefit (scale 1.10, or even 1.15, instead of 1.05)...
* Quick Recovery is a 30% boost unslotted
* Stamina is a 25% boost unslotted
* Physical Perfection is a 12.5% boost unslotted
* Conditioning is a 5% boost that cannot be enhanced!?
To be fair, Conditioning is a boost to the base modifier which means you get more mileage out of endmod-increasing powers (Stamina, IO sets, Numina/Miracle unique), but is it enough of a boost to provide some benefit without being one of those "there for show" powers?
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
Conditioning gives you 20% of the value of stamina plus 50% of the benefit of Health, unslotted. That's not bad.|
Originally Posted by macskull
My guess is simply that the real numbers display is incorrect. Of course, it would be nice to buff Conditioning to provide a bit more benefit (scale 1.10, or even 1.15, instead of 1.05)...
* Quick Recovery is a 30% boost unslotted * Stamina is a 25% boost unslotted * Physical Perfection is a 12.5% boost unslotted * Conditioning is a 5% boost that cannot be enhanced!? To be fair, Conditioning is a boost to the base modifier which means you get more mileage out of endmod-increasing powers (Stamina, IO sets, Numina/Miracle unique), but is it enough of a boost to provide some benefit without being one of those "there for show" powers? |
If you enhance recovery with Stamina, the net effect of having the higher recovery value is something close to having one extra SO slotted into it, ignoring the ED soft cap. VEAT recovery with unslotted stamina is about 1.31; that's equivalent to someone with stamina slotted with a +25% recovery enhancement. VEAT recovery with +95% slotted stamina is about 1.562 which is comparable to someone with stamina slotted to +125% (if that was possible with ED), about 30 percentage points higher.
Someone with slotted stamina *and* Numinas regen/recovery IO gets to a recovery of about 1.5875. That's about what a VEAT gets with just slotted stamina (1.562). So in a sense Conditioning's recovery buff is about what Numina's proc would give to a slotted Stamina (non-VEAT) character, plus a better regeneration net buff. Given what people pay for that IO, and given that Conditioning doesn't burn a slot, I think it has to be considered a decent buff overall.
Suppose VEAT recovery was 1.10 instead of 1.05. Then a VEAT with unslotted stamina would already have a recovery of 1.375, and would match the recovery of fully slotted Stamina plus Numinas with about +77% slotting - about two ++ SOs worth. At fully slotted stamina VEAT recovery would be 1.636. That's actually almost as high as someone with fully slotted quick recovery *and* Numinas: 1.685.
The numbers seem small, but when 1.10 recovery turns Stamina into the equal of Quick Recovery and the Numina's proc combined, 1.15 - which seems like a numerically small buff - would have to be considered out of the ballpark and into orbit, and 1.05 is probably best described as a smaller but still significant buff.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
OK very good explanations, I think I can put this bailiwick down now. 
One thing that bugs me though is that Conditioning practically demands you take Health and Stamina, due to the above-explained synergy of the power, and at the same time isn't strong enough to allow you to even think about skipping them.
I would have preferred something strong enough to allow you to go with a Staminaless build instead, but that's personal preference. The Fitness pool is just a requirement for anyone who wants to perform above a certain level (ie, not rest after every spawn) and doesn't get access to Quick Recovery: VEATs being especially well-advised to take Fitness since Conditioning has such good synergy with it.
VEATs are still great fun in any case. I'll just be sure to always take the Fitness pool with them (as usual for CoX) instead of chasing the Staminaless holy grail.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
As an alternative way to apply Conditioning it could be added to the total after all modifiers are applied instead of the the BASE.
Here are my calcualtions. Please tell me if I am applying the mods incorrectly:
Conditioning 5% Recovery Mod
--------------------------------------
Add to Base
Base 1.67%
x Cond 1.05 = 1.75%
Add to Base with 1 Modifier
Base(w/Cond) 1.75% + Stam 0.44% (unslotted)
=2.19%
~ with 2 Modifiers
2.19% + 2.5% Recov Bns (IO)
=2.24% (2.24475)
---------------------------------------
Add to total
Base 1.67%
x Cond 1.05
=1.75%
Add to total after 1 modifier
Base 1.67%
+ Stam 0.44% (unslotted)
=2.11%
x Cond 1.05
=2.21% (2.2155)
~ after 2 modifiers
Base 1.67%
+ Stam 0.44% (unslotted)
=2.11%
+ 2.5% Recov Bns (IO)
=2.16% (2.16275)
x Cond 1.05
= 2.27% (2.2708875)
------------------------------------
Applying it the to Total after all modifiers are applied means a small increase over the current method that gets bigger the more Modifiers you have.
Dont know what kind of ingame affect this change would actually have.
They would have to do some code changes/additions to make that work. Currently no bonuses affect/base off of other bonuses, only the base.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
is .05 acually doing anything?, I mean it seems so minor that the effect would seem unnoticed isn't it?
I have seen a few threads that state the VEAT Inherent "Conditioning" was broken in regards to the Recovery Bns.
I have not been able to find anything saying that it has been fixed (admittedly soemtimes my Search-Fu is weak so I may have missed it).
Can anyone confirm if it is still a problem or has been fixed?
Cheers