That Delicate Balance Between Concept and Capability


Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
Anyone have any ideas for what would be good to simulate the ability to control time?
I have a time traveller... and for him I took Gravity/kinetic/fly/tp

time works in wormholes and gravitational fields influence time and space... tp is like time gates too.. kinetic speeds up and slows down...

Scientific it fits...
Check him here...
http://union.virtueverse.com/index.php/Tom_Orrow


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Posted

All of my characters are concept first, but the most important thing I've learned in all of the time that I've been playing is that you really have to put some effort into making a bad character. By "bad", I mean one that simply cannot progress without relying on the generosity of others or piles upon piles of inspirations.

I learned that during I6, when I was leveling up my Kin scrapper, a character I created as a response to all of the cries of ED "killing defenders". Pool melee attacks, no damage SOs, solo nearly the entire way to 50... and it worked. It worked better than I expected. It worked well enough to defeat Terra solo and go toe to toe with Adamastor for ten minutes.

These days, with IOs, Real Numbers, numerous improvements to the game, a rocking wiki and a much more informed, eager-to-help community, I don't think any concept build can be made which can't solo well, contribute to teams and be fun to play. I honestly believe one would have to deliberately build a character with the intention of it being completely incapable of being played at all in order to make it "unplayable", or even "not worth playing".

That said, every player is going to have his or her own determination of what is "unplayable". Some people simply cannot tolerate anything which doesn't obliterate everything in a spawn in less than ten seconds. Some people prefer to take their time and role play every single use of a power. Some people don't like melee, others don't like ranged combat. Some want to blitz spawns, some want to herd, some want to ghost entire missions, some just want to hang out and talk or show off their latest costumes. None of them are "wrong", none of them are "right", none are "better" or "worse". What they all are is what the person playing them enjoys, and that's really all that matters.

"Gimp" is a state of mind. Everything works, it's just a matter of how well it works for the individual in question.


 

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When I create Characters, it differs from Heroes to Villains. In heroes, the first ever character I made, is tied to all my other heroes on that server, either from her past, or as alternate characters from alternate universes, in which she might have made different choices.

furthermore, Blueside, the only powers I refuse to take, are ones that require the holding of a weapon, such as katana or broadsword, although claws is fair game. Additionally, I have to "like the feel" of the power, which also knocks out a few powersets and archetypes, like Tankers and defenders.

The heroes also have to be effective, which knocks out all controller ATs with the notable exception of fire/kin. it is a bugger leveling to the power at which that AT is effective, but I hold a particular affection for kinetics. Also, this qualification of being effective knocks out both kheldian ATs, however, my main character's story was too important to me, and so I have made one of each, but will NEVER EVER make any more. EVER.

Redside, the characters are typically well thought-out, orderly evil or chaotic evil (Dr. Evil - Joker/Harley-quinn) who are in it for themselves, or in it because they are so deranged and crazy they thing it is fun. Obviously, I have to like the feel of the powersets, which knocks out corrupters and brutes. Second, they must be effective, knocking out Dominators. Third, they cannot be Stalkers (out of principle; I hate Stalkers more than life itself). This leaves VEATS and Masterminds.

If I choose a Mastermind, the character should preferably have Dark Miasma as its secondary, although possibly pain domination could be accepted. from here, the only two primaries that fit are necro and ninja.

For VEATS, the only limitation is that I have to get up to lvl 30 as quickly as possible on the bane spiders, so that I have to endure the horrid weapon-holding running animation for as little as possible; then I get the backpack, and it NEVER comes off.

After the name (which is arguably just as important to me) has been registered, I go from there, and reason out what happened to get that character its unique powers, etc,.


 

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My main is supposed to be a SS/Kinetic or Kinetic/SS. Didn't matter. But it sadly is not an option.

I've tried:

Cold/Kin Controller
Kin/Electric Defender
Kin/Rad Defender
Kin/Dark Defender (although I didn't try this for too long and maybe I should now that we have color customization)
Sonic/Energy Blaster -- Fun but a little boring. I usually had enough control for normal solo situations. Almost too much control. And with little AoE, this wasn't that fun on teams.

Biggest problem is that I can't get any mez protection on a Kinetic. Melee without mez protection = not fun for me.

In other games, I've used to playing "paladin" like characters that buff and debuff from melee range. Sadly this game doesn't really have an analog.


 

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I could make posts on this subject that would be a whole thread in itself. I definately start with the concept first, but I still want to build the strongest character I can within the restrictions I set for myself. Which sometimes takes sacrifices, such as when I first created Bloodwolf, I gave him Flurry because I felt it fit a martial arts theme, but I wanted him to have some punches. Eventually I traded that for Boxing, despite the lower damage, because Flurry was just not the best power to use under those circumstances.

My main, Jade Dragon, was originally envisioned as a Green Lantern clone. This was thirty years ago, though, long before this game was a glimmer in anyone's eye. By the time the game came around, JD had already evolved a power based on a cloud of "mist" that surrounds his body, that he can levitate on and manipulate at a distance. As such, the Force Field power of "bubbles" was not graphically a good match.

Radiation would have been a better visual fit, and in all honestly if I had it to do over again knowing what I know now, he would be a Rad/Rad Defender. The imbalance in capability is in this case matched by a better conceptual match in application. While JD does not necessarily debuff foes by surrounding them in mists, he can do that, and typically will put up shields to block incoming fire as they are needed, instead of surrounding allies as a matter of course. Thus, the more proactive Rad Emission fits. The sole reason I avoided the set was Radiant Aura, which I felt I would be expected to take. JD cannot heal, though, period. And ironically, for a short time I planned on him taking Aid Other and Aid Self, although eventually I abandoned that plan. (Although not because of lack of usefulness. Instead I decided the sacrifice was not SO great I could not overcome it)

Radiation Emission instead became the foundational power for another conceptual character, JD's teammate (one of them, Blue Diamond being the other) Genie Gold. Originally, the character was a dog, named Element Dog, and he had the power of shape change, and the ability to reshape matter he touched. I could not create a dog character at the time, though, and so I decided to use the concept for a human character. I'd already come up with the genie for the concept, being as they are shape changers and tricksters, I just needed an AT and Power Sets.

Since I wanted to test Rad Emission to see if I wanted to use it in place of Force Field, and I already had a Defender, I went with Controller. So this is one time the Power Sets came first, and the concept was based on it. I wanted Element Dog's ability to merge with people to hold them, however, as well as his ability to break down defenses and heal people. It occured to me that instead of trying to fight hand to hand herself, Genie Gold might be more timid and instead shape extensions of herself to do the fighting, so I thought Illusion/Rad would fit.

In the end, I came up with the perfect concept. Where Element Dog had applied his power almost entirely to himself, Genie Gold learned how to extend it through the air. By blending with the air around her, in a manner similar to JD's mists, she could extend her power so it was a "field" around her. She could then reshape the air into illusory fighters, create clouds of smoke and gas to choke and weaken foes, and even make direct contact with a target's body to either cause wounds or heal them. She could also turn into air herself, a trick Element Dog used constantly to fly and move around without being seen.

Although at first the color schemes of the Primary and Secondary didn't match, I have been VERY impressed with the visual effects after I recolored them gold. Although it looks a bit more like she is manipulating light instead of air, the fact that her costume is gold brings it all back together again.

Anyway, that should do for starters. Maybe after a few pages I will post something else.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ethereal_ View Post
The heroes also have to be effective, which knocks out all controller ATs with the notable exception of fire/kin.


Second, they must be effective, knocking out Dominators.
I did drugs in middle/high school.

I cleaned up.

You can, too.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
Anyone have any ideas for what would be good to simulate the ability to control time?

I have done Gravity-Kinetics as a time-control theme. Then I took teleport and superspeed (at different spec versions). But ultimately, the concept died at the hands of game limitations.

** what you envision, rarely can be created from the in-game options, you are better off taking the combinations and bringing a concept to match it. Also, I usually troll for good names first, then think about powersets that could fit the name and then, at the very end, build a concept to fit the powers and name chosen. Completely backwards to how I would "WANT" to come up with characters.**

One idea I had years ago, was to have a "serial number" attached to your name generated randomly, which acts as part of your name, but is not visible. If the serial numbers were 3 digits, then you could have 999 accounts using that character name on a server. It would make it harder to add folks to your friends list, since you would have to target them, or get their serial numbers in chat, but its rather annoying that when I come up with a good name, I check the name and invariably get the message... "that name is already in use".

Would it be annoying to see a dozen "Nightwolf" characters running around. Maybe, Maybe Not. But MANY, MANY character concepts of mine have died because I could not find a decent name to fit the theme and powersets chosen.


BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverado View Post
Performance always comes first for me, but I'm not just some heartless minmaxer who doesn't care about concept, quite the contrary actually.

When I make a toon I pick powersets first, and then based on the powersets I create a concept that explains his origins. Take for instance my Defender, an ordinary cricket that one day jumped into a discarded radioactive powersuit wasting away in a pond in Crey's Folly, which mutated him into a (semi) intelligent superhero. His powersets? Rad/Sonic of course
I'm pretty much the same in that respect.


 

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People give the myth of "concept vs performance" too much credit.


 

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You can have both. All of my concepts are very capable. I never sacrifice performance for concept.


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

I feel that I have never had a concept that this game wouldn't let me indulge in a satisfying manner. With power customization, it has been taken to the next level. I appreciate the diversity of powersets available on each side and the differences between the sides. Sometimes, I feel a concept can easily carry a powerset combination that is not intuitively high-performing the first time out and may have been abandoned. I am currently revisiting gravity control on both sides, with a Gravitrix Scout, a Grav/EnAssault Dom (dark green tinged powers), and a mirror (with different color scheme) character Gravitrix Blue, a grav/rad (blue tinted) troller. I am getting into the concept of these alien scouts of an insect collective invasion enough to not be too frustrated at getting dimension shift instead of Ice Slick at 12th level (yeah, I didn't take it.) Really looking forward to wormhole.


 

Posted

I think I could do my concepts more justice, if the epics where better.

Okay, I have to live with limits. I can't have a hero who can fire both Fire AND Ice...but the epics were restructured (to grab a blast over a hold/immobilize I dont see my concept being able to do), or added to even more...like a 4 minute ally buff shield...so they can sheild their allies as if they had telekensis...it would all be better!


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
Anyone have any ideas for what would be good to simulate the ability to control time?
I have several temporal themed characters. I usually go for the obvious Kinetic route and/or some form of Ice. I usually explain the Ice Blasts as a form of "Temporal Shearing" that can cut/selectively stop an objects molecular motion.

I find this kind of explanation to be particularly effective for my Ice Armor Tank. The shields remind me of the personal forcefields from David Lynch's Dune while Chilling Embrace and Icicles are the temporal warp/fractal tearing (respectively) that is happening around him.

Granted, I've never been able to work Ice Control into this concept. Too much snow.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I think I could do my concepts more justice, if the epics where better.

Okay, I have to live with limits. I can't have a hero who can fire both Fire AND Ice...but the epics were restructured (to grab a blast over a hold/immobilize I dont see my concept being able to do), or added to even more...like a 4 minute ally buff shield...so they can sheild their allies as if they had telekensis...it would all be better!
This is why I've suggested adding an additional epic power from any powerset as a Specialty Power Individual to that Toon. Something that every other Dark/Dark/Dark can't do that you can do.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuarianRex View Post
I find this kind of explanation to be particularly effective for my Ice Armor Tank. The shields remind me of the personal forcefields from David Lynch's Dune while Chilling Embrace and Icicles are the temporal warp/fractal tearing (respectively) that is happening around him.
Interesting concept. On a nerdpick point; however, the personal force fields were also from the book originally (albeit, I don't recall Herbert describing them as being so blocky).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
Interesting concept. On a nerdpick point; however, the personal force fields were also from the book originally (albeit, I don't recall Herbert describing them as being so blocky).
I was not trying to imply that they were not. I meant the fluid Lego look of the shields in the movie. That was an image that stuck with me from my childhood and the Ice Armors have always reminded me of it.


 

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Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon View Post
Although at first the color schemes of the Primary and Secondary didn't match, I have been VERY impressed with the visual effects after I recolored them gold. Although it looks a bit more like she is manipulating light instead of air, the fact that her costume is gold brings it all back together again.
I find the very pale yellows good to represent Air molecules, a bit more transparent but still in keeping with your costume colour scheme!