Hmm, thought of another thing. Maybe Sarrate or Elegost can post what GW resists are like and to what damage types. Maybe we are stacking the teams with the damage type she is resisting the most.
We had a huge problem with Siccocococ as well; was WAY too hard to take him down. Our team was:
fire/rad controller
earth/storm controller
emparth defender
trick arrow defender
stone tank
scrapper
two blasters (one sonic)
Viv says her damage numbers were way too low on the AV's. IIRC, blazing bolt for her was only doing 13 or so damage total.
And on top of that? 2/3's of the team dc'ed/crashed at some point during the last map, plus half the team at random points the rest of the TF. I played most of the weekend without a single crash or teammate dc'ing; just STF was crash city.
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What we really should do is have someone hit GW with that Mark IV whatever thingy before and after debuffs are placed. I nominate Sarrate.
Had similar problems on an STF last weekend, AVs just didnt stop regen even with 4-5 higher powered -regen debuffs they were healing at a higher rate than normal.
Our team gave in the end as it took way too long, something along the line 20-25 min and still having BS left, if LR had been bugged as well we didnt want to find out.
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Bugged or unannounced ******* buffing?
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
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Originally Posted by Killi
Had similar problems on an STF last weekend, AVs just didnt stop regen even with 4-5 higher powered -regen debuffs they were healing at a higher rate than normal.
Our team gave in the end as it took way too long, something along the line 20-25 min and still having BS left, if LR had been bugged as well we didnt want to find out. |
Killi, Defender or Controller debuffs? Who were they placed on? Did you gather all 4 or single target them?
I really believe there may be a bug, but since its not on every run, little details may help us to figure it out.
Anyone up for running it tonight? I would be willing to lend a hand though I only have an NRG Blaster that would be up for the job
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anyone with [surveillance] can do the same thing as with the temp
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
What we really should do is have someone hit GW with that Mark IV whatever thingy before and after debuffs are placed. I nominate Sarrate.
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We ended up dropping the TF after spending way too much time trying to scratch GW. I blamed it on my bad luck with STF..
Weird... had no issues two weekends ago, other than Recluse having tremendous luck in hitting me 4 times in a row. The patrons weren't any different than usual when we fought them, though we did take them on one at a time or so.
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Firstly, I'd like to take the time to take credit for this idea; started doing this to cut down on time waiting for toggle debuffers (stoopid rads!) to switch between targets. Lesson: when herding mobs (or Patrons) toggle debuffs on the LAST one you're gonna kill!|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
debuffed BS
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Secondly, (opinions incoming!) using defenders as buffers/debuffers is always better than trollers. (ducks punch thrown by Voodoo) They have higher values and ... well that's just about all you should need right? Also Gloom/Bitter Ice blast > ring of fire/propel. When we ran speed/power STFs, we only brought a single therm controller and a mix of defenders for buffs/debuffs. Depending on the week's flavor, we had one or two colds, a rad, kin, and the therm, playing with the number of scrappers/blasters for optimum efficiency, and always Ele or me on our stone tanks.
Almost always running the Kin Defender on these (I have three now at 50, /Dark /Ice /Archery, with /Rad on the way), I was always a firm believer in the importance of offensive buffs as well as debuffs. Because of the way AVs in particular resist debuffs, a solid Damage buff can be more important than Resistance debuffs, so I make it my number one priority to keep everyone at damage cap, which is why I'm always ******** at people to get IN the mobs instead of firing safely (and more weakly) from outside. I know people (including me) hate the 'we need a kin!' attitude, but a good, aggressive kin on a team can make these runs so much easier.
On Shamsters team last night:
(This is all according to Mids)
-Res/+Dmg: Strongest debuff on the team, with -92.5% if no resists (Sarrate can clarify how much this actually gets through).
*Potential unresisted numbers: -40% Res from TA, -22.5% Res from the Rad troller (assuming Fallout wasn't used), and -30% Res from the Storm Troller.
*The +Dmg was weak on this team IMO, while Blasters and Scrappers have good damage output on their own, a superemp with Fortitude on everyone gives 31.3% +dmg, with +20% +dmg from Rad (assuming they had AM perma and hit everyone with it). That's only 51.3% damage buff if nobody was running assault. My initial diagnosis would be just that the Damage buffs were low, but people do beat this TF without them.
*The -Def looks alright to me (people do need to stop Dogging on TA, it actually has alright Debuff numbers.
*The -Regen could have been the issue. Except for the occasional EMP Arrow or EMP Pulse (if used at all), Lingering Radiation is the only -regen power, which does -500% regen. [A Strong (high recharge) Dark Defender has the strongest -Regen IMO, with -500% from Howling Twilight and -50% every time Twilight Grasp is fired. Also, a Kin firing Transfusion every couple seconds with the same -50% helps a lot.]
Sorry I can't give any concrete evidence on what's going on currently; I haven't run STF in a couple months or so. From the information in this thread, it just sounds like Shamster's team had alright -Res, but with a lower -Regen and +Dmg.
Dusty Trophies
Just chiming in I haven't ran the STF in a while too. But someone running tonight or tommorow, I should be around to help out.
Viking and I were going to make another run tonite, around 8ish.
Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
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Rock, rock on Hamster.
Ryxx's analysis was pretty much what I was thinking. Since resistance resists resistance debuffs, if you don't have enough of them stacking from various sources, you're not going to see much difference at all even after applying them. And when one can't get the resistance to drop, one should increase the damage. Given that they're practically the same thing anyway. (or just do both, duh).
I myself don't remember all the details between troller/defender sets (someone mentioned some defender powers auto-hit whereas trollers have to make a toHit check.) I have no idea of the differences between the two, other than the solid number increase.
I'm sure we could run one tonight as well to see what's up. I'll see what we can do.
And yeah, TA has some pretty sweet debuffs, flash arrow is the best damn tohit debuff in the game (if you exclude hax from fluffy anyway).
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
 |
^Professional Katana/regen build thread
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Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, that's taking 1 hour 45 minutes to complete, and not 1 minute 45 seconds to kill the AVs, right? I'm 99% positive you mean the former (since the only way I've seen the AVs die that fast was with nukes / shivans), but I want to amke sure.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
Run 1) Gathered up all 4 AVs, debuffed BS, killed GW, Scir, Mako, then BS. Took longer then people expected there was some discussion as to why they didn't melt with all our debuffs. We had 2 Rad controller, a thermal Controller, and a kin controller. Finished in 1:45 or something.
Run 2) Gathered up all 4 AVs, debuffed BS, killed GW, Scir, Mako, then BS. They dropped fast. We had 2 cold defender, 1 kin controller, 1 rad controller. Finished in 1:15 or something. |
Just out of curiosity, what kind of tank was tanking the AVs? Ele's Granite? Reason I ask, is it may be possible that Ghost Widow was hitting people with her heal, since you didn't have any +def going. A granite could easily survive the damage, even if it's defense was trashed (which Scirocco's tornadoes have a tendancy to do). (Also, not trying to say Ele doesn't watchi his numbers / pop inspirations, mind you; I'm just making guesses.) Of course, healing back damage is a lot different than not taking a lot... The second run is also a lot harder to try to explain. Two colds should would soft cap anything, and give a nice buffer to anything with +def to begin with.
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
Hmm, thought of another thing. Maybe Sarrate or Elegost can post what GW resists are like and to what damage types. Maybe we are stacking the teams with the damage type she is resisting the most.
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1) Power Analyzer - This would be the best, since it would display what the AVs actually have without any ambiguity. Of course, this would require that you go through the STF up to them to see. (Alternately, you could place GW into an AE arc and check there, but there is a possiblity the AE version is different than the STF version. I don't think so, but just be warned.)
2) Celux (Culex?)'s Spreadsheet - Search the guide forum for posts made by Celux (Culex?) and download the latest version of the spreadsheet. It has resistance / defense numbers for most mobs in there. Slight chance that they could be off if she was buffed.
3) Try to peek at them in game by typing something like the following: [Ghost Widow.Resistance] - If you get it right it will be clickable just like typing in [Brawl] would be.
Note - These aren't always accurate, since they're displaying the power using player modifiers rather than AV modifiers. They could be different when AVs use them.
The best solution would be #1 during the STF.
Also, you're absolutely right, AVs with resistance resist res debuffs. Off hand I think that GW has high NE / Psi res, not sure about other types. I doubt your teams were heavy on either of those damage types, though.
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
2) Why are all teams not seeing this? It -could- be that debuffs placed directly on GW are not taking affect. However, debuffs placed on a target standing near her are taking affect. It could also be that lately people have been running alot of controller debuffs rather then defender debuffs.
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Shivans/nukes/HVAS = 30ish seconds. true story, we got vids. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, that's taking 1 hour 45 minutes to complete, and not 1 minute 45 seconds to kill the AVs, right? I'm 99% positive you mean the former (since the only way I've seen the AVs die that fast was with nukes / shivans), but I want to amke sure.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just out of curiosity, what kind of tank was tanking the AVs? Ele's Granite?
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
3) Try to peek at them in game by typing something like the following: [Ghost Widow.Resistance] - If you get it right it will be clickable just like typing in [Brawl] would be.
[i]Note - These aren't always accurate, since they're displaying the power using player modifiers rather than AV modifiers. They could be different when AVs use them. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
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I'm not on Sarrate's level of number crunching, but here's the quick and dirty version.|
Originally Posted by _Ryxx_
On Shamsters team last night: (This is all according to Mids) -Res/+Dmg: Strongest debuff on the team, with -92.5% if no resists (Sarrate can clarify how much this actually gets through). |
STF AVs are +4 so Purple Patch rules apply first. So basically a +4 mob has as 48% resistance to the debuff.
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| [92.5 * (1-0.48) = 48.1%] |
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Note, I consider -def to be one of the weakest (if not the weakest) debuff you can have against AVs. It is extremely resisted (something like 3.9% base effectiveness against a +4 AV, so -50% def = [-3.12%] def, yay).|
Originally Posted by _Ryxx_
*The -Def looks alright to me (people do need to stop Dogging on TA, it actually has alright Debuff numbers.
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Originally Posted by _Ryxx_
*The -Regen could have been the issue. Except for the occasional EMP Arrow or EMP Pulse (if used at all), Lingering Radiation is the only -regen power, which does -500% regen. [A Strong (high recharge) Dark Defender has the strongest -Regen IMO, with -500% from Howling Twilight and -50% every time Twilight Grasp is fired. Also, a Kin firing Transfusion every couple seconds with the same -50% helps a lot.]
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This means a 500% regen debuff (31.2% after resists) is negating 19.5 hp/sec regen (or 31.2 dps after resists, etc). By comparison, a 50% debuff (3.12% after resists) is worth a meagre 3.12 dps. You're better off just using an attack - yes, even as a Defender. (As a Kin, I'd spam SP instead of Transfusion.)
[edit: Fixed.]
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the D/Cing was crazy last night. On that last D/C of mine while we were trying to take down GW, My system crashed so hard that when it came back up - no desktop. zip - nada Had to restore my whole system Today. ... what the hell is up with that?!?!
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Originally Posted by Satanic_Hamster
We had a huge problem with Siccocococ as well; was WAY too hard to take him down. Our team was:
fire/rad controller earth/storm controller emparth defender trick arrow defender stone tank scrapper two blasters (one sonic) Viv says her damage numbers were way too low on the AV's. IIRC, blazing bolt for her was only doing 13 or so damage total. And on top of that? 2/3's of the team dc'ed/crashed at some point during the last map, plus half the team at random points the rest of the TF. I played most of the weekend without a single crash or teammate dc'ing; just STF was crash city. |
205723: A Different DESTINY
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Also, you're absolutely right, AVs with resistance resist res debuffs. Off hand I think that GW has high NE / Psi res, not sure about other types. I doubt your teams were heavy on either of those damage types, though. |
Ghost Widow also has a version of Shadow Fall. I don't know the exact numbers on her version, but it will grant her and the other AVs resistance to Energy, N. Energy and Psi damage.
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AV resistance does not cover resistance or damage debuffs - it's why they're so damned good against them. The only things that resist it are resistance and the purple patch.
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Originally Posted by Desmodos
I'm not on Sarrate's level of number crunching, but here's the quick and dirty version.
STF AVs are +4 so Purple Patch rules apply first. So basically a +4 mob has as 48% resistance to the debuff. Then we can factor in the AV resistance modification. For a lvl 54 AV it happens to be 87% So against an +4 AV your 92.5 damage resistance gets reduced to 6.25% damage resistance. |
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I've been advocating for awhile, that Scirocco may be a greater threat than Ghost Widow. It all depends on how many Dust Devils (tornadoes) he drops. He can drop up to 5 at a time. |
Originally Posted by Satanic_Hamster
We had a huge problem with Siccocococ as well; was WAY too hard to take him down.
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| Dust Devil (auto PBAoE, smash, -tohit, -defence, chance for -perception) |
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I'm thinking the latter.|
Originally Posted by Satanic_Hamster
Bugged or unannounced ******* buffing?
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It doesn't seem to be consistent, though.
A couple of nights ago on Triumph, we had a pretty optimal team going. We did fine, but my Tanker could only hit LR with Taunt. This was under the following conditions:
- 2 Radiation Infections on LR
- Both Blue and Red Generator Defeated
- Using Build Up
I've never had problems hitting him in the past, but the last 2 runs I've done have had the same result. I'm glad Taunt is auto-hit.
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So we just stop at the first calculation? Making it 48% resistance debuff?|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
AV resistance does not cover resistance or damage debuffs - it's why they're so damned good against them. The only things that resist it are resistance and the purple patch.
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FYI 48% is not enough to floor her while Shadow Fall is running.
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There has been a lot of discussions as to if the STF may be bugged again. I think the best way for us to figure this out is to talk about our most recent runs on the STF.
I believe that most people are stating that the AVs and Ghost Widow in particular seem to be alot more difficult to defeat then normal.
Here is what I have seen on my last two runs:
Run 1) Gathered up all 4 AVs, debuffed BS, killed GW, Scir, Mako, then BS. Took longer then people expected there was some discussion as to why they didn't melt with all our debuffs. We had 2 Rad controller, a thermal Controller, and a kin controller. Finished in 1:45 or something.
Run 2) Gathered up all 4 AVs, debuffed BS, killed GW, Scir, Mako, then BS. They dropped fast. We had 2 cold defender, 1 kin controller, 1 rad controller. Finished in 1:15 or something.
Then I heard about this run last night that Hamster had. Where they had a rad controller, a TA defender and a stormy (that dc'd) and GW just would not stop regening/healing to full even with all the debuffs on her. The way it was described to me it was as if her resistance was through the roof. People were doing only -5, -40 pts of damage to her.
I asked on a few global channels on different servers if anyone was seeing any issues with the STF, making sure not to mention AVs or GW. Infinity said no issues, Champion said no issues as did Freedom.
I have heard from a few of the best STF runners on Victory however that they HAVE seen issues.
So this raises a few questions:
1) Is GW bugged? I think its a possibility.
2) Why are all teams not seeing this? It -could- be that debuffs placed directly on GW are not taking affect. However, debuffs placed on a target standing near her are taking affect. It could also be that lately people have been running alot of controller debuffs rather then defender debuffs.
I know its common knowledge but humor me:
Enervating Field:
Controller: -20% damage, -22.5% resist
Defender: -25% damage, -30% resist
So what has everyone else seen?
For the sake of information, please state debuffers on team and their AT, did you group or single target the AVs, what order you killed them in and any odd observations you had. (Recent runs only like lets say with in the last 2 months).
Thanks all!