The Wall of Fire (Fire/Fire) and the Four Rules of Tanking

Thanks for the great guide and discussions. One thing I'd add is that I like Combustion on a team Fire tank because so many high level spawns can be scattered, and like to shoot from range. The only way I can keep my fire controller pal from dropping every time he uses his Immob (which is one of his AoE damage sources) is to jump in first with Combustion. His Immob is still larger, but at least theres only a few perimeter guys shooting at him.

I also find Taunt invaluable for times when a lt or boss is off at the side of a group, mezzing my support, but I don't want to move over there because I've got the rest of the spawn all around me. Ditto if there is another fairly close spawn that starts taking an interest in the team. I recommend playing with the camera zoomed out as much as is practical to catch those problems, one of the things that stands out to me about good tanks I've teamed with is that they spot and deal with those trouble situations sometimes before the rest of the team is even aware of them.

Finally, I wanted to put in a plug for the Ghost Widow PPP for a Defensive Tank. Darkest Night is the gem there, the -tohit will stack with any defenses you have unless its an AV/GM with their special debuff resists, and the -20% damage does NOT get affected by those special resists, so its like adding another 20% resistance to your build that can actually let you exceed the normal tanker cap. Plus, it protects your teammates, since it affects any AOEs the AV uses, and lets you shut down Lord Recluses Bane spawns during the tower fight. You have to take a precursor power to get Darkest Night, but the AoE Immob isn't bad, there can be times when you want to pin a foe in place anyway, and Immobs actually work on a lot of AVs. Normally the power of toggle debuffs are balanced by only being available on characters without full time mezz protect, this is the only exception I know of (barring controllers with the right epic and extreme recharge).

Hey there Grey Pilgrim!

Great guide!

I was messing around with your defensive build and had a few minor tweaks. Not sure if it's really better...though you do end up with a bit more defense.

You get almost 30% s/l defense, almost 29% melee, 25% ranged and 23% aoe and your recharge time goes up to 25%. Regen boosts to 190% from 180% but you lose some recovery...164% down from 171% and you lose 2 pts off of s/l resistance but are still above 65% by a few points and you do gain a couple more points of max endurance.

The original build had almost 21% s/l defense, almost 26% melee, 23.4% ranged and 22.1% aoe...as a quick comparison.

here's the data chunk if you're interested....

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Well, I'm trying to make these builds as affordable as possible, so slotting Kinetic Combats isn't really a great way of doing that. You're either going to spend a lot of merits or a lot of cash to get those slotted, and leaving a power at 4 KC's doesn't make for great enhancement numbers, either, especially for accuracy. A lot of your boost comes from slotting Maneuvers more heavily and having it running, but I would be reluctant to do that except at level 50 with the Cardiac boost. Yours has less end recovery as well, so I would rather worry about how well that would do as you level up and don't have a Cardiac boost assisting you. Consume is nice, but it can only make up for so much. I know my original build can keep going constantly without Maneuvers going (and using Consume on at least one target), so I'm fairly sure that the heavy end use of Maneuvers would affect that.

But you should certainly come up with the build you want for your characters... mine are just pictures of what you can do and what has worked for me on a modest budget (and adjustments from an original build I made several years ago).

Do you have a build posted for those that influence is not a problem, one purpled out.

My main is a fire/fire scrapper and I was curious about how they would compare. I have a tier 4 alpha and I went for recharge/healing. I can get both build ups, healing flames, burn, and fsc up faster and since I have a proc in every single power that does damage, including the armageddon one in burn, I want that stuff up as fast as possible. I went for tough but not weave.

Squishy? Yes, but I arrest soooooo fast. My wife and I play together and she loves a dual blade/wp scrapper - but when I approach the mob, she feels useless simply because I crucify mobs like mad.

Only problem I see in making a tank version of my favorite character (which is saying a lot after 7 years) is taking on AVs and so on. WP can have difficulty at times against AVs so I can't imagine how rough it is to be a fire tank, even with tough.

I can actually think of one situation where Teleport would be good for Fire/Fire: Caltrops. With the way Knives of Artemis spam them, even a Temperature Protection + Winter's Gift proc combo leaves you crawling out of them.

Just a purpled out build with no PvP IO's. Looking for a very tough tank that can kill fast too )

You have said that you have tanked most of the content with your fire/fire tanks, and I have heard from a few people how a fire tank cant main tank the new incarnate content (Apex, Tin Mage, BAF, Lambda). Have you tanked any of these or do you know of any fire tanks that have? If so what are your experiences tanking these and do you have any tips specifically for surviving these instances considering the higher lvl mobs and the higher hit rating they have? Also this is the build I did on my fire/fire tank. Its a bit unorthidox but at least on an ITF Im pretty much indestructable.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.93
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Magma core IO: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Blazing Aura -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(5), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(5), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Oblit-%Dam(9)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(37), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(37), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 2: Fire Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(15), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(15), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40), RctvArm-ResDam(42), RctvArm-EndRdx(50)
Level 4: Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 6: Healing Flames -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(19), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Dct'dW-Heal(40), Dct'dW-Rchg(40)
Level 8: Combustion -- Insult-Taunt(A), Insult-Taunt/Rchg(9), Insult-Dsrnt%(11), Erad-Dmg(11), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(13), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13)
Level 10: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(17), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), RctvArm-ResDam(42), RctvArm-EndRdx(50)
Level 18: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(45), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(46), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(46), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(46), Zinger-Dam%(48)
Level 20: Burn -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(21), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(21), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Oblit-%Dam(25)
Level 22: Temperature Protection -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(27)
Level 26: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(27), S'fstPrt-ResKB(29)
Level 28: Weave -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg(29), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg(31), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), RedFtn-Def(43), RedFtn-EndRdx(43)
Level 30: Fire Sword Circle -- Insult-Taunt(A), Insult-Taunt/Rchg(31), Insult-Dsrnt%(31), Erad-Dmg(33), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(33), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33)
Level 32: Rise of the Phoenix -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Incinerate -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(45), EndMod-I(45)
Level 47: Consume -- Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(A), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(48), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(48), Mocking-Rchg(50)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(3), EndMod-I(3)
Level 4: Ninja Run

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Frosty, I will see what I can do. Like I said earlier, though, you might get more out of a select few PVP IOs than a bunch of Purples, since Purples mostly only give recharge. I'll try to come up with something this weekend, but it's been a very busy semester, and I am trying to get published besides teaching full time.

Dragon, the new trials are tough for anyone, and you do want to be careful of running around alone. For the solitary groups of mobs around at the start of BAF or Lambda, I haven't had too much trouble with my health plummeting, but other things are designed to make a solo character nervous before getting level shifts for the trials (and probably even after). The turrets around Lambda can actually ding you up pretty well if you go up against it solo, but its nothing your resists and Healing Flames can't handle. If you have teammates around, your health probably won't budge, especially if they have buffs, which many do now.

My biggest issues have actually been during the collection phase of Lambda: people tend to spread out more than they should, and all those drones buffing your enemies (and all the psi damage from the Seers) makes it easier for them to hit you. Commanders can throw out a lot of energy damage, too, which Fiery Aura doesn't resist as much as other types of damage. Some of these issues did arise from dying when I was trying to help out beleagured teammates on the first run or so, and then the experience after that was made worse by the bug where your Alpha slot's benefits were removed after you were defeated and rezzed (not around anymore, thank goodness). I was on two runs of Lambda Wednesday night where people stuck together and there were very few defeats for anyone, and none for me.

You should tank for your team, but the trials require teamwork. If you've been playing the ITF and other older TFs a lot with a Cardiac going, you can get a little cocky when running them. Don't run around on your own and work with your teammates. Aim for the level shifts from the new Incarnate powers as well: those will make a huge difference in the damage you can avoid and shrug off, perhaps/probably even more than if you pick up Barrier or a buffing Lore pet from the new powers.

How about the bosses themselves. Most of the critics I hear from say its the AVs that destroy fire tanks. So in the new content I am specifically interested AV input like Battlemaiden, Siege, Nightstar, White,... As far as the teamwork end I agree it is a must in the new content as is AT placement.

With the new league setup I have noticed some people seem to think as far as buffs go it doesnt matter what ATs go where. I think they are assuming that buffs/debuffs are raid wide vs confined to your specific group. However the interface is setup so taht buffs/debuffs only benefit your specific group. So if you have a radiation def debuffing the boss then only the people in his group are getting the benefit from the lower hit, defence, resistance, & damage output. Anyone in the other group(s) are still facing an AV with normal stats. I would recomend that if you have a limited number of radiation defenders on your run that at least one (preferably two) be placed in the group with the tank or tanks that will be on the boss. The lowered hit and damage output from the boss on the tanks, benefits the tanks more than the lowered resistances benefits the dps.

I dont know if any exact calculations have been done yet but going by the new hitcap numbers dps needs and how often tanks are getting hit now compared to content where they were softcapped on def, it seems the new softcap (not including lvl shifting) is around 60% vs the 45% it used to be for normal content. Once you are lvl shifted to +2 or +3 it should be somewhat lower. So lowering the hit on a +4 AV could make a major difference on tank survivability.

I'm not a huge fan of firetanks for pure survivability. However, I'm going to try and be constructive.

1) For Defense, it pays to specialize. There's usually a huge difference between 45% and 25%, or even 40%. (details here if you feel mathy.) But there's a corollary: 32.5% is much better than 27.5%. Why? One small purple insp, which you can make out of any three-of-a-kind that drops, turns 32.5% into 45% and you're nigh unkillable for the next 60 seconds. So if you have a choice between, say, "A lot of En/Neg" and "some En/Neg and some Smash/Lethal" go for the lot. You can also carry ten or fifteen medium purple insps if you don't mind planning in advance and shopping for them. If you have 20-25% Defense one medium inspiration (or two small ones) will cap you.

2) It seems very likely that AV's are firetank killers. Many AV's (old Battle Maiden was famous for this) throw out shots doing six or eight THOUSAND points of smash/lethal damage. Multiplying that by 28% (if you're 72% resistant) hurts a lot more than multiplying that by 10% (if you were 90% resistant.) One possible workaround is to carry big oranges. Yeah, those things that everyone in the game converts to something else. They're cheap!

3) I don't generally build for psi survivability unless I have something to build on [like a Dark Armor], because you can either put a lot of resources towards getting mediocre survivability vs. psi or you can put a lot of resources towards getting huge survivability vs. two or three other things, which are probably way more common. Some people don't like weaknesses. I'm ok with them as long as I'm ludicrously overpowered to everything else. (Yeah, I'm repeating myself: it pays to specialize.)

I have been only playing the Incarnate Trials, on my Fire/Dark Melee Tanker, and I would have to say the biggest problem for a Fire Tank are the lasers in the BAF, Nightstar's reinforcements when they crit at the same time and carrying to much aggro in the Lambda from one container/capsule to another while solo.

Taking the Barrier Destiny power helps greatly with all three of these cases. I also find a lot of other tanks worry about Maurader's Nova Fist, but a Fire Tanker just needs to resist hitting healing flames when the warning shows up, and hit is as soon as your health starts to plummet and you can stay in melee range for the entire fight (barring chasing him).

I finally got the Lore slot last night, and look forward to seeing if I can safely solo the warehouse or lab, while not worrying about carry over aggro from group to group now that I am +3.

One thing you don't mention is that Healing Flames has a toxic resistance component to it. In the lower levels you can also somewhat use it pre-emptively if you're facing Vahzilok. It helps a little.

Grrr, stupid board decided I wasn't logged in and ate my reply. Starting from scratch:

Great guide, though I have a couple of quibbles or questions.

First, I think that Blazing Aura should be taken as soon as possible. It's very helpful in keeping mob aggro by damaging as many of them as possible at once, hence drawing fire away from teammates. And it can also be used in hazard zones like Perez Park (or, with the new more-granular difficulty system, in your own missions with the spawn size cranked) to melt down large groups of blue and green mobs and hence level quickly at the low end.

And I think that the new super-sidekicking system means that Rise of the Phoenix benefits by being moved ahead, too. It's not possible to unexemp to self-rez anymore. So my old build had it at 49, but I'm now moving it back to 32 so it can benefit any exemp-teams I'm on as much as possible. After all, if you're on a team and something was bad enough to take you down, likely the rest of the team won't stand a chance unless you get back up and get the enemy's attention again as soon as possible.

And a question: you mention slotting up with Enhancement sets, but what about those of us who were around in the old days and have scads of Hami-Os? I've got three Accuracy/Damage Hamis in most of my attack powers, meaning it's like having three extra SOs' worth of room to add L50 recharge or endurance IOs after hitting the ED cap on both Accuracy and Damage. Are IO sets really worth losing those significant power benefits? (Here's the respec build I'm currently considering, replete with the hami-os I have.)

I tried to note the debate over when and how to use Blazing Aura in my guide. I quite agree that it is useful throughout your career, so picking it up as soon as possible is the way to go. However, endurance usage is always something to worry about, especially before SO levels. I ran a KM/Dark Scrapper through after the Fitness changes, and I had a hard time keeping his damage aura going when solo: until after the SO levels. And I was slotting for end reduction as best I could, around other things. Scrappers generally have better damage to endurance consumption, so Tankers are going to notice that even more. Damage auras are nice, but you want to keep up your toggles and use your other attacks even more.

When to take Rise of the Phoenix is a personal preference thing, too. I prefer to get everything lined up that will keep me alive before grabbing something that will revive me. So I'd take all my defensive toggles before RotP for sure. I could see possibly taking it before Fiery Embrace or Temperature Protection, but there are benefits to those that can keep you moving as well.

Builds are individual as well. Whatever you want to use, be sure that it adds up to you having a solid build that will meet your needs. Hami-Os are a nice way to get a lot out of each slot, so they have that going for them. However, you would not want to use them so exclusively that you are cheated of the many bonuses IO sets can give. I'll try to take a look at your build when I get the chance (no time right now, alas), but use Hami-Os around IO sets to stretch your slots and bonuses to the utmost.

Defense is a good thing to aim for with Fiery Aura, the type you go for is up to you, but you would want to get to at least 20% for regular content: that seems to be the line where I notice a big difference. The higher you go, the better. It is possible to get to 45%, but you usually have to sacrifice too much with Fiery Aura, so getting somewhere between 20-45% is a good spot. S/L is nice, of course, but as you can see with my Defensive build, I like having defense to more types of damage, especially Psionic (it's prevalent in the 40+ game).

Any advice on a defensive build with just IOs or SOs? I have a 50 fire/fire tank still set up from pre-ED that I would like to get running again and I need somewhere to start. Believe it or not, he still holds his own just fine with the pre-ED slotting, which surprised me.

Thanks for the input. At the moment I am keeping the second slot with the pre-ED build and slotting, including the SOs. Mostly for nostalgia, but also so I can see the difference in effectiveness firsthand. I will probably change it up at some point for a good tricked out set build, but that's probably several months away

Grrr, I don't seem to be getting notifications about posts to this thread, sorry.

A little late now, but the guide does have an SO/regular IO build that should be perfectly solid. It should be based off of what I used to have before IO sets, adjusted for inherent Fitness.

As Robo said, there are some good and cheap sets out there. If you ever want Kinetic Melees for a build but can't afford them, but a set of Smashing Haymaker in (think that's the name). It has the same type of bonuses, just weaker. The costs are also fractional in comparison. It can also be worth saving merits for a big seller on the market and getting a lot of cash from it: getting even 100 mill from something will cover most sets a Fiery Aura tanker could find useful.

I think you're on the right track with taking your time. When I first came back after a break, it was between I9 and I10. I planned a build for GP and could only afford half of it, and worked my way to the rest. He was solid enough beforehand, and filling in the rest just made it better. Fun to see your performance go up like that (kind of like with the incarnate powers)!

Im Curious what a build would look like maxing out def for all types. What are the highest numbers you can get? Fooling around with mids I'm only getting mid to high 29's. Can anybody get any better? 32.5 is the lowest I feel comfortable running so I can pop a luck to soft cap.