What is the philosophy/idea behind set bonus exemptions?


Aggelakis

 

Posted

I for one think that Diminishing Returns is an unfair system when it comes to PvP. Why should anyone that has invested that much time in an alt be reduced to nothing and put on a par with someone who has "Just popped in for a look"

PvP as it is, whilst leveling the playing field for noobs seems to have done away with most elitism, and the PvP IO's just seem to have become the newer shinier Purples.

OP, if you want good gear, go earn it, if you want to PvP, go get in the zone, if you want Purples, go earn the inf to get them or kill the mobs to have them drop.

Do not come on here crying about this that and the other simply becasue you don't have the time or inclination to go and get it. You need to earn it in this game, no one's going to hand it to you on a plate.

And before anyone has a go, I have had a few Purple drops, but like to sell them to buy stuff for my alts, and although I pvp a little to try and get the SG stuff and the odd badge I haven't had a PvP IO drop, but don't come on here wining about it. If I spent a long time "Succesfully" PvPing I might have expected a drop or two if I had killed many players alts, but as I only have around 200 or so pvp kills across my alts I neither expect to have a PvP IO, as I would think they would have roughly the same drop rate as Superior Recipies, which means I would have to kill 1000's in PvP to get one.

Anyway, that's enough of that. To sum up, if you want the leet stuff, go earn it and put the time in, if you don't put the time in, don't cry if you get ganked in a PvP zone by someone who has.....


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexus_NA View Post
hmmmmm.... interesting.
I'm going to put this hypothesis to the test, later tonight. 1v1, blaster vrs corr, tier 1 spamming only.

No healing, no buffs, no running away, no shields, standard IO's, no set bonuses.

Test server should be perfect for this.
This isn't a hypothesis, this is a fact. Unless the Corruptor has some way to either completely drain the Blaster's endurance or floor their recharge before the Blaster gets through their attack chain a few times (all that's needed to get a kill, really) the Blaster will win. Way too much time in zone since I13 has shown me that unless you've got teammates near you, Hibernate/phase is up, or you're by a lot of buildings, you're gonna be screwed if a halfway intelligent Blaster gets the jump on you. It's even worse in the lower level zones where no one has their epic shields and the damage figuring is a bit different.

An emphasis on damage spam over support, a seeming dislike of teaming, and huge misconceptions about the PvP system are the reasons we are where we are today. It's not the players' fault.


@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by British Battler View Post
whilst leveling the playing field for noobs seems to have done away with most elitism
Not really, as anyone who still plays that was decent under the old system knows that the reason they're dying (especially in zone) is because the mechanics gave the other player the kill, not because the other player earned it (if you think that mashing buttons until your target is dead because they can't evade or be healed is skillful, then I'm not sure what to say).


@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
Ah, so now we come to the heart of the matter... simple jealousy towards those that spend hours farming to get purples and PvP IOs.

You wish all IOs exmplared down because you have either no desire or no time to put in the effort to get the "good stuff".
*sigh* Westley Westley Westley.......

If I was jealous, I'd be complaining that they are too powerful, which I am not.

I most certainly have the desire for them, as I have stated before, so on that point you are also incorrect. I simply cannot make them appear out of thin air. I can only run the hampster wheel, and hope for the best.

Time is another issue altogether. Once again, I did not begrudge those who 'have' acquired them, however they managed to do so.

Ok... maybe I'm a 'little' jealous they got a 150 million dollar drop when I got my 30th Call of the Sandman, but honestly speaking here, it's 'not that difficult' to make money on the market, so I can and do, make up for my bad luck in other ways.

My friends and I invest the same amount of time doing these tasks, because we always do them together. They've gotten dozen's of drops, I've gotten 1.

It is simply the luck of the roll, I understand that, move along.

It doesn't change my view, one iota, that allowing set bonuses to exemplar down in pvp, will help level the playing field and allow for more competition. (Before you assume anything else, please note I said: HELP, not cure, fix, finalize, or even balance... it is simply a STEP in the right direction.)

If you feel exemplared IO's will hopelessly break pvp, then just say so, and have the curtesy to explain why you feel that way.
Don't waste your time trying to 'read between the lines', when I feel I've stated my case very clearly.

I want non lvl 50 characters to be more competitive in pvp, in their appropriate zones.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I'm not sure why you think 1000 merits would suggest you should ever have seen a purple.

The most optimistic numbers I've seen suggest that, on average, a purple drops once every 1500 mobs. (This is a very round number, as it treats all mobs as a kind of aggregate, even though drop rate varies by mob rank.)

When you run on a TF, you are almost certainly doing that on a team. When a mob drops something, it drops one thing. When you play on a team, that one thing a mob drops is randomly assigned to someone on the team. So if you are playing on a team of 8, you're reducing your odds of getting any given drop by a factor of 8. That takes that (possibly very optimistic) on in 1500 chance of a drop and makes it one in 12,000.

Frankly, I'm not at all sure the teams I play on would come close to putting down 12,000 mobs in the number of TFs that it would take me to earn 1000 merits. On a very conservative number of 25 merits/TF that's 40 TFs, meaning we'd have to defeat 300 mobs on every TF just to hit the average number of mobs for me to get one drop. And of course, probabilities don't work such that you're going to get a success just because you did the number of tests to get a result on average.

I'm not disagreeing with the numbers, just lamenting my bad luck in comparison to my friends.


 

Posted

But that was the whole POINT of super-rares, was that they exemplar down where other IOs do not. That is exactly how they were advertised as being BETTER than standard IOs.

Attempting to change that because you aren't getting rare drops... tsk tsk.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
This isn't a hypothesis, this is a fact. Unless the Corruptor has some way to either completely drain the Blaster's endurance or floor their recharge before the Blaster gets through their attack chain a few times (all that's needed to get a kill, really) the Blaster will win. Way too much time in zone since I13 has shown me that unless you've got teammates near you, Hibernate/phase is up, or you're by a lot of buildings, you're gonna be screwed if a halfway intelligent Blaster gets the jump on you. It's even worse in the lower level zones where no one has their epic shields and the damage figuring is a bit different.

An emphasis on damage spam over support, a seeming dislike of teaming, and huge misconceptions about the PvP system are the reasons we are where we are today. It's not the players' fault.
For the purpose of this study there will be no attack chain, just the tier 1 primary power, as I detailed in my example.
The attack chain adds more complexity and makes it more difficult to establish control elements within the study.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
But that was the whole POINT of super-rares, was that they exemplar down where other IOs do not. That is exactly how they were advertised as being BETTER than standard IOs.

Attempting to change that because you aren't getting rare drops... tsk tsk.

Westley, you are officially more obsessed with my lack of rare drops than I am.

You haven't even attempted to explain why set bonus exemptions exist in the first place.

Clearly your comfortable with it, and you want pvp to be competitive only for the hardcore crowd.

I understand your position, and you are entitled to feel anyway you like. I simply disagree.

I want pvp to be more competitive for ALL levels of characters, not just the hardcore.

I've even pointed out that the hardcore will always have an advantage, again perfectly acceptable as they've earned it one way or another, but does the gap have to be so large?

I mean... really?

Again, I'm talking about zones below RV. In RV everything works and you can be competitive with regular IO sets, and I am.

The arbitrary 3 level exemption everywhere else is exactly that, arbitrary. It existed before purple sets were even introduced.

Made no sense then, doesn't make sense now... so what purpose does it serve? What is the reason?
It's nearly as time consuming and costly to build strickly lvl 33 sets, as it is to aquire the rare sets, ever since the merit system was introduced.

No matter how you slice it or try to spin it, by design, PvP is tailored for the hardcore crowd.

Ease up a bit, is all I'm saying. It will benefit everyone in the long run.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
But that was the whole POINT of super-rares, was that they exemplar down where other IOs do not. That is exactly how they were advertised as being BETTER than standard IOs.

Attempting to change that because you aren't getting rare drops... tsk tsk.
I thought the point of purples was that their enhancement amount was higher and they gave stronger set bonuses.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU View Post
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexus_NA View Post
No matter how you slice it or try to spin it, by design, PvP is tailored for the hardcore crowd.

Ease up a bit, is all I'm saying. It will benefit everyone in the long run.
Y'know, they tried that once. It resulted in a general shitstorm and the PvP population is even smaller than it was before (not to mention the system went from being unbalanced in a few areas to being generally unbalanced across the board).


@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexus_NA View Post
You haven't even attempted to explain why set bonus exemptions exist in the first place.
Cos they wanted to. I said this already. You just don't want to accept it.


Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Every game I enjoy have this, that items, powers, units, whatever have pluses and minuses to them in an attempt to balance them while giving a sense of variety. This is simply one aspect of IOs, the higher the level they are, the greater the level range where their bonuses vanish. This is on top of crafting costs or ED ringing away part of those higher than SO enhancement value.

What's happening now is buying remorse, now that SSKing is forcing pimped out 50s to play at levels where their IO bonus fail, unless they are purped out level 50s.


Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components

Tempus unum hominem manet

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
Cos they wanted to. I said this already. You just don't want to accept it.
You think its based on whim then?


 

Posted

Quote:
The arbitrary 3 level exemption everywhere else is exactly that, arbitrary. It existed before purple sets were even introduced.
Ummm, not to burst your bubble here, but it's not arbitrary at all. It existed before IOs were introduced.

Think about it, what level do you have to be to slot level 25 SOs? 22, right? And you have to be level 47 to slot level 50s. And they cease to function at all if you get more than 3 levels above them. That's how it's been since launch, and has never changed.

IOs are just following the same theme. The enhancement of the power itself still works, but you lose the set bonuses if you exemp more than 3 levels below the set. It's not arbitrary at all, they decided on 3 levels below because that's how SOs work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Few things... bonuses and IOs do help, but you can do decently with regular enhancements. There is "gear" in CoX, but not as much need for it as you see in WoW and other games.

Also, if you are planning to PvP in the lower level zones, why are you bothering with level 40 IO sets? Slot IO sets that will be in range for the zone(s) you want to hang out in. There is a reason for why level 33 recipes usually cost more than level 34 and 35 recipes, for instance.

I use the more common IO sets for all of my characters (I have had all of two purple recipes drop in all my time of playing, and only have a decent amount of cash... I'm still working on getting those more common IOs on a lot of my characters). I'm also quite happy with their performance. I could eek out just a little bit more performance out of them with Purples, but that would be a lot of cash for not a whole lot of gain. That's the great thing about this game, you don't need the l33t g34r to get the job done.


Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc:
Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexus_NA View Post
By this I mean, what is the purpose/philosophy/design decision to nerf / eliminate set bonuses that are above the PvP zones level?

If I've got Posi's blast level 40's slotted and enter Sirens, I no longer get those bonuses, but If I slot Purples, or Gladiator sets, I still do??

This seems rather unfair, if you ask me.
You have it correct . To a large extent some want it to be about factors that are extrinsic to the player. Which when you do even a little thinking about it goes along way to explaining lack of popularity that PvP has currently.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Ummm, not to burst your bubble here, but it's not arbitrary at all. It existed before IOs were introduced.

Think about it, what level do you have to be to slot level 25 SOs? 22, right? And you have to be level 47 to slot level 50s. And they cease to function at all if you get more than 3 levels above them. That's how it's been since launch, and has never changed.

IOs are just following the same theme. The enhancement of the power itself still works, but you lose the set bonuses if you exemp more than 3 levels below the set. It's not arbitrary at all, they decided on 3 levels below because that's how SOs work.
This applies moreso if you "out-level" an enhancement by 3 levels, not if you exemp down 3+ levels or sk up 3+ levels. ONLY if you out level them. This is also true for I/O's, you cannot sk up to high and you cannot exemp down too far to get the benefit of said IO. But in the case of I/O's there effectiveness never goes away no matter how far you out-level them or how far you exemp them. So why should their bonuses go away and be treated differently than the any other benefit of the IO? Not to mention an all lvl 33 build takes forever and a day to get together. Ive done it several times and it totally blows. Some builds can take months to put together all lvl 33 sets. In the case of PvP IO's good luck putting a set together in less than 12 months.

Also, it was mentioned more than once that players who put in the time for their uber sets "should" get to keep their bonuses always...
Does that mean all others who spent time getting their "less than uber" sets are not as deserving? They earned those bonuses the same way you can earn purples, by putting time into the game. Why are they not entitled to the fruits of their labor? Just "screw them" huh, their time was not as "special" as captain purples time?

While I'm not worried about getting purples or pvp IO's, because most of my toons do in fact have them, I have hundreds or crafted items in base, and have absolutely ***** in market pvp for a long time now..........I still think that my lower toons with their hodge-podge set bonuses should get to keep their set bonuses. I assure you, my position on this is not purple envy, my toons are quite rich.
I definately do NOT have a problem with lower toons keeping their meager bonues when entering pvp. My money will still trump theirs, but it may make them a little more difficult for me to take down. This should mean more fun for me and them. The harder the kill was to get, the better I feel about the kill. But dont think for a moment I'm going to gimp my toons to their level to simulate that experience.
cuz i wont!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by sblinks View Post
You think its based on whim then?
No, it's based on their desires after probably hours and hours of deliberation, which none of us are privy to, so it's kind of ridiculous to ask players the philosophy/idea behind exemption.

If the OP wants to know why, they should ask the developers of the game, not their fellow players. This can generally be done by PM, not by posting a question in the "players answering other players' questions" forum. Of course, the OP needs to keep in mind that it's almost guaranteed that the developer(s)/OCR member(s) they contact will not divulge the answer.


Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexus_NA View Post
It practically forces a player to max their character, in order to be competitive in lower level zones, so what is the point of the lower level zone to begin with??
An even playing field for PVP and a loot system are largely mutually exclusive, particularly once you take into account people's expectations of loot systems - look at all the nonsense here about how people who've done the "work" should enjoy an advantage in PVP, so that PVP can be a test of your free time and boredom threshold not of skill at PVP. I've got a job, thanks, I don't need another one that I have to pay for.

The loot system made commercial sense (for all that I, personally, would much rather play the game with no loot system) but it was inevitable that it would make PVP the province of an elite few - however, PVP has never been particularly successful or popular anyway, so I guess that wasn't seen as much of a problem.


 

Posted

Do you really want to be trying to take down someone who's defense numbers, even with you having SCADS of +To Hit, mean you're still only hitting at 5%?

Like a defense-capped Inv/* tank sitting someplace near the 50% defense range with nobody near him?



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

 

Posted

That doesn't happen in-game. DR caps defense lower than that, even on a Tanker (well, you could get up to that 50% if if you had lots of external buffs, but solo you won't be anywhere near that unless you explicitly build for it). On top of that, the multitude of accuracy and tohit buffs available to attackers mean they'd be hitting that Tanker at least fairly reliably. Even with DR and elusivity at least partially implemented to make defense-based sets "not suck" in PvP, there's a reason resistance is preferred over defense in PvP.


@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
DR caps defense lower than that
That was my point.

If that wasn't the case, PVP would be one gigantic miss-fest.



Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

 

Posted

There are/were people who kitted out their toons to fight at a specific level in PvP to get around the issue of set bonus exemptions.

If you drop the idea of the set bonus exemption you will also merely pin the value of the top level IOs of that specific type, and the lower levels will be considered less worthy (ie, junk).

Did you want top level toons to be the ones who only get maximum rewards or should lower level toons have the opportunity to be competitive as well when getting drops in the market?

This would also be power inflation and the ramifications for that wouldn't just be felt in PvP. The broad theme of not losing *anything* by exemping would mean that everyone would be encouraged to level as high as possible *before* participating in anything, whether it be Task Forces or PvP. Your idea isn't bad prima facie, but it does gut one of the significant reasons why PvP and Purple IOs are so valuable.

PvP IOs and Purple IOs break the set bonus rule and everyone understands the innate value of their ability to do so, thus making them desirable. The fact that they are rare also means that it won't break the game. Making every common IO do the same would alter the fundamental nature of leveling and game play.

Just remember that the rarity of Purples and PvP IOs are a substitute for endgame play as well. People will spend hours in order earn inf and look for those drops in order to maximize their toons. Devaluing that impetus by giving the same benefits to every other recipe would mean those players would have fewer reasons to play. Doesn't sound like a good idea to give players fewer reasons to play.

This is why it won't work for the developers and for everyone else who is talking against the idea.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggelakis View Post
No, it's based on their desires after probably hours and hours of deliberation, which none of us are privy to, so it's kind of ridiculous to ask players the philosophy/idea behind exemption.

If the OP wants to know why, they should ask the developers of the game, not their fellow players. This can generally be done by PM, not by posting a question in the "players answering other players' questions" forum. Of course, the OP needs to keep in mind that it's almost guaranteed that the developer(s)/OCR member(s) they contact will not divulge the answer.

LOL @this.
How do you know somebody here is not aware of the answer? Not to mention.....this is exactly where one should come to get some of their technical questions answered last time i checked.
This player base has answered some pretty "off the wall" stuff.....correctly, I might add. So...why not this question too? Seems perfectly reasonable to me...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyDeadSide View Post
LOL @this.
How do you know somebody here is not aware of the answer? Not to mention.....this is exactly where one should come to get some of their technical questions answered last time i checked.
LOL is right. Try reading the thread title. The OP is asking about the philosophy/idea behind the mechanics. This refers to the devs THOUGHTS and STATE OF MIND when creating the system. I guess our cadre of telepaths might be able to give an answer.....


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project