A small change with a big impact?


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

I was respecing some IO's from my ss/shield (War Diety) to my dm/shield (Darklocked)brute today. I think that if Dev's made it so that enhancements were not locked so IO's could be more easily be taken off of toons we would see a decrease in demand as well as an increase in supply.

The reason I see this helping is I have a lot of semi-valuable (obliterations, crushing impact, numina's....) IO's on my SS/Shield the time and cost of respecing to get those IO's off of War Diety means that I will probably never get those off of him. It cost around 100 mil to buy a respec, I can only get ten IO's and I have used all my vet specs. I can still turn a profit by buying the respecs, but I hate spending 100 mil just to get semi-valuable IO's back. If I could more easily move those onto the market or onto another toon I would not need to rebuy them.

I could see a problem arising with people taking highly valuable IO's and moving them around differn't toons, I believe that the time it would take to move these around would be a big enough hassle to keep people from doing it too often.

Also this would not include changing the powers or slots, just the enhancements.

Just would like to hear your comments and concerns, good or bad idea?


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Posted

So, the only way an IO could dissapear would be if a user actively deleted it but the rate of drops stays the same?


 

Posted

Take a look at the price of positrons blast chance of energy damage. That used to be a very nicely priced item. Now because of the way class C rolls are weighted giving a reasonable supply of the triples its a not so valuable item.

Small change in supply big impact.

Now the question is would it be better for the game the game to have it easier to play with toons rather than the market ? Who knows.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enots View Post
I could see a problem arising with people taking highly valuable IO's and moving them around differn't toons, I believe that the time it would take to move these around would be a big enough hassle to keep people from doing it too often.
I believe you're wrong. I could store every purple drop, all the unique heals, the incredibly expensive unique PvP IOs, 5 LotGs, and misc others in about 2 Enhancement bins. I could then swap them to any character I have, making them silly overpowered. I wouldn't swap every IO, just the really expensive ones. It wouldn't take very long, and it wouldn't be a hassle unless I had to do it frequently.

If I did this, I'd be able to sell off a lot of the purples and other expensive IOs I currently have. Other people would similarly buy a single set of everything and swap as needed. Say I had 4 completely twinked characters on a server. I could strip them and keep about 2 chars worth, and be able to completely twink any char I had on the entire server. I could sell my spares and that would enable someone else to do the same. So we go from 4 twinked chars to potentially 24 twinked chars. That would raise the bar throughout the entire game by significantly increasing the number of silly overpowered chars.

In Diablo II, you could trade gear freely. I built up some powerful rare low level gear I would give to every char I started and it made the initial levels a cake walk. Sure the low level bonuses are small in that game, but they add up when every single item you have has 5 decent bonuses. Imagine if every character at level 10 got KB protection, Res/Def and Def/TP, and Regen Tissue and Panacea uniques. Add a Miracle unique at 20, up to 5 LotGs at 25, and a Numina at 30. Note that you can do exactly this today, and it just takes a single respec (or freespec) to strip out the really nice stuff. I expect some people actually do play this way. But if everyone could do it, the game would just become too easy.


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I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enots View Post
I was respecing some IO's from my ss/shield (War Diety) to my dm/shield (Darklocked)brute today. I think that if Dev's made it so that enhancements were not locked so IO's could be more easily be taken off of toons we would see a decrease in demand as well as an increase in supply.

The reason I see this helping is I have a lot of semi-valuable (obliterations, crushing impact, numina's....) IO's on my SS/Shield the time and cost of respecing to get those IO's off of War Diety means that I will probably never get those off of him. It cost around 100 mil to buy a respec, I can only get ten IO's and I have used all my vet specs. I can still turn a profit by buying the respecs, but I hate spending 100 mil just to get semi-valuable IO's back. If I could more easily move those onto the market or onto another toon I would not need to rebuy them.

I could see a problem arising with people taking highly valuable IO's and moving them around differn't toons, I believe that the time it would take to move these around would be a big enough hassle to keep people from doing it too often.

Also this would not include changing the powers or slots, just the enhancements.

Just would like to hear your comments and concerns, good or bad idea?
Wow so respec recipes have gotten to 100 million now. Thats just disgusting. Oh well I still got a ton of the free ones.


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Posted

I'm torn, TopDoc is of course right in what he says, but would it encourage people to actually use the mid level IOs and then replace them with 50s later, meaning the mid level market might actually function a bit better ?


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Posted

You have to realize anyone who "plays" the market will be devastated by this idea. It will simply destroy most if not all of the high end "niches" and their profits will simply disappear. Of course anyone in that position is gonna post a significantly scathing "anti idea" against the OP's good idea.

The flippers would scream doom etc.

The convenience and flexibility of the idea are stellar from the perspective of most players. A VERY significant portion of those who flip and play the market for money will be hammered by this idea. Hence the negative review of it.

Sure what doc said "could" happen. In fact is does happen, but now it only happens with the players who have a LOT of currency. Sound like anyone group we know ? ... marketeers ... who make thier money off the current system ... high end flippers ... big profiteers ...

It plainly obvious that to other players it would be real QoL fix.

So always keep in mind that when the profiteers blast this kinds of idea - it threatens their play style more than anything else. Whether its actually good for the game itself or if it benefits the greatest number of players is irrelevant to them.


Over the hills and through the woods.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanNVicious View Post
You have to realize anyone who "plays" the market will be devastated by this idea. It will simply destroy most if not all of the high end "niches" and their profits will simply disappear. Of course anyone in that position is gonna post a significantly scathing "anti idea" against the OP's good idea.

The flippers would scream doom etc.

The convenience and flexibility of the idea are stellar from the perspective of most players. A VERY significant portion of those who flip and play the market for money will be hammered by this idea. Hence the negative review of it.

Sure what doc said "could" happen. In fact is does happen, but now it only happens with the players who have a LOT of currency. Sound like anyone group we know ? ... marketeers ... who make thier money off the current system ... high end flippers ... big profiteers ...

It plainly obvious that to other players it would be real QoL fix.

So always keep in mind that when the profiteers blast this kinds of idea - it threatens their play style more than anything else. Whether its actually good for the game itself or if it benefits the greatest number of players is irrelevant to them.
Or, you could actually, y'know, read TD's post and realize that the point he's trying to make would be that this change would make the game too easy. Enhancements are locked onto a character with a limit of 10 pulled off in any given respec because it's the system's way of tying equipment to a character without actually locking it in. You can get it off the character, but it's time-consuming and arduous - and it's meant to be that way because getting the inf to IO characters as you like is a time sink in this game. Without time sinks, the population becomes bored and wanders off.


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Posted

I believe Posi once said something along the lines of even being able to keep 10 enhancements in our inventory after a respec was "generous".

Along that thinking, as well as the lack of a global in-game item mail, the inability to invite your alts to an SG without outside help, and other nuances, I'd say the game's design philosophy is squarely set against the idea presented in the OP.

If you pimp-out a character, you're pimping out THAT character, not saving IOs for your alts for when you get bored. IOing a character out is an investment unto THAT character and that character alone. Now I'm no mind reader, but that seems to be the Devs' idea on this sort of thing.

And it's not a "wrong" idea to have. I mean, if you're so bored with your 50s that you're liable to just swap resources and delete them (if it were easy to do so), how long before you did this to all your alts, ultimately got bored, and left the game? CoX needs all the subscribers it can get, and fostering to impatience is NOT a good marketing strategy.

Anyway, if for some reason the Devs allowed this sort of thing, we'd see prices drop pretty much everywhere, as even fewer characters would need anything, and more people would be trying to sell their existing IOs for ones they want. This isn't bad in and of itself, though since this game employs a "carrot on a stick" philosophy to keep people playing, allowing everyone to get their "carrots" might end up being a bad thing in the long run.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
Or, you could actually, y'know, read TD's post and realize that the point he's trying to make would be that this change would make the game too easy. Enhancements are locked onto a character with a limit of 10 pulled off in any given respec because it's the system's way of tying equipment to a character without actually locking it in. You can get it off the character, but it's time-consuming and arduous - and it's meant to be that way because getting the inf to IO characters as you like is a time sink in this game. Without time sinks, the population becomes bored and wanders off.

Yes its the same way delivery spoils the taste of restaurant food.

Oh wait It doesn't.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopDoc View Post
In Diablo II, you could trade gear freely. I built up some powerful rare low level gear I would give to every char I started and it made the initial levels a cake walk. Sure the low level bonuses are small in that game, but they add up when every single item you have has 5 decent bonuses. Imagine if every character at level 10 got KB protection, Res/Def and Def/TP, and Regen Tissue and Panacea uniques. Add a Miracle unique at 20, up to 5 LotGs at 25, and a Numina at 30. Note that you can do exactly this today, and it just takes a single respec (or freespec) to strip out the really nice stuff. I expect some people actually do play this way. But if everyone could do it, the game would just become too easy.

Mine do for the most part. The pvps not so much then again I haven't found any need for them, the rest are easy enough to generate/purchase in advance. The only real limiting factor is getting a feel for powersets to see where the character should go.

I find this fun, other people probably would as well. Yes it would hurt the market but then again it would probably help the rest of the game as people wouldn't feel the need to play as a corporate entity to try the things they want to in the game.


 

Posted

Quote:
So, the only way an IO could dissapear would be if a user actively deleted it but the rate of drops stays the same?
Yes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TopDoc View Post
I believe you're wrong. I could store every purple drop, all the unique heals, the incredibly expensive unique PvP IOs, 5 LotGs, and misc others in about 2 Enhancement bins. I could then swap them to any character I have, making them silly overpowered. I wouldn't swap every IO, just the really expensive ones. It wouldn't take very long, and it wouldn't be a hassle unless I had to do it frequently.

If I did this, I'd be able to sell off a lot of the purples and other expensive IOs I currently have. Other people would similarly buy a single set of everything and swap as needed. Say I had 4 completely twinked characters on a server. I could strip them and keep about 2 chars worth, and be able to completely twink any char I had on the entire server. I could sell my spares and that would enable someone else to do the same. So we go from 4 twinked chars to potentially 24 twinked chars. That would raise the bar throughout the entire game by significantly increasing the number of silly overpowered chars.

In Diablo II, you could trade gear freely. I built up some powerful rare low level gear I would give to every char I started and it made the initial levels a cake walk. Sure the low level bonuses are small in that game, but they add up when every single item you have has 5 decent bonuses. Imagine if every character at level 10 got KB protection, Res/Def and Def/TP, and Regen Tissue and Panacea uniques. Add a Miracle unique at 20, up to 5 LotGs at 25, and a Numina at 30. Note that you can do exactly this today, and it just takes a single respec (or freespec) to strip out the really nice stuff. I expect some people actually do play this way. But if everyone could do it, the game would just become too easy.
I agree with most of what you said but, I believe that moving these twinked builds around that much would only be done by expierenced players that can already do this because of vet-specs. I do it with my big ticket items all the time. Its the midrange items, the ones I constantly delete and mid-level items that are my main concern.

Another point is if you already have one extremely good build, whats the harm in having 2? You can only play that one at a time.

I would probably still kite out multiple toons for convenience.

Quote:
You have to realize anyone who "plays" the market will be devastated by this idea. It will simply destroy most if not all of the high end "niches" and their profits will simply disappear. Of course anyone in that position is gonna post a significantly scathing "anti idea" against the OP's good idea.
I'm a silent marketeer as well. I play the market almost everyday. This would increase supply, especially mid-range stuff most people just delete because of the lack of enhancement space.


I have always hated the respec system in this game, I think this change would make it bearable.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele View Post
I believe Posi once said something along the lines of even being able to keep 10 enhancements in our inventory after a respec was "generous".

Along that thinking, as well as the lack of a global in-game item mail, the inability to invite your alts to an SG without outside help, and other nuances, I'd say the game's design philosophy is squarely set against the idea presented in the OP.

If you pimp-out a character, you're pimping out THAT character, not saving IOs for your alts for when you get bored. IOing a character out is an investment unto THAT character and that character alone. Now I'm no mind reader, but that seems to be the Devs' idea on this sort of thing.

And it's not a "wrong" idea to have. I mean, if you're so bored with your 50s that you're liable to just swap resources and delete them (if it were easy to do so), how long before you did this to all your alts, ultimately got bored, and left the game? CoX needs all the subscribers it can get, and fostering to impatience is NOT a good marketing strategy.

Anyway, if for some reason the Devs allowed this sort of thing, we'd see prices drop pretty much everywhere, as even fewer characters would need anything, and more people would be trying to sell their existing IOs for ones they want. This isn't bad in and of itself, though since this game employs a "carrot on a stick" philosophy to keep people playing, allowing everyone to get their "carrots" might end up being a bad thing in the long run.

I understand this line of thinking as well. I'm thinking as a consumer that wants it all. I believe that the overall good of this idea out-weighs the bad; of course, im biased.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
Or, you could actually, y'know, read TD's post and realize that the point he's trying to make would be that this change would make the game too easy. Enhancements are locked onto a character with a limit of 10 pulled off in any given respec because it's the system's way of tying equipment to a character without actually locking it in. You can get it off the character, but it's time-consuming and arduous - and it's meant to be that way because getting the inf to IO characters as you like is a time sink in this game. Without time sinks, the population becomes bored and wanders off.
You realize that the only limiting factor to what you're saying is currency right ? Making the game "too easy" as you have called it ALREADY HAPPENS NOW.

Having to respec out the IO's takes like 3 minutes. And you can tweak your characters powers and slots. That hardly makes it "time consuming and arduous", lol.

The only real factor between being able to swap around IO's right now is having a ton of currency to do it with. Either by buying respecs, or by buying all new IO's. Its the same thing just without having to spends gob awful amounts of currency (inf, merits, etc, etc) to get it accomplished.

And the folks who can afford to do this now ? You got it - you read the other thread in this topic about "how much do you make in a week". As stated hundreds of millions and some billions are the norm for even decent marketeers in a given week. Usually even farming doesnt make that kind of currency if you wanted to argue for farmers.

So yea i'd say when a marketeer doom says the OP's idea - dont read too far into it. Especially docs example with happens now, but just puts the power into the hands of the marketeers vs. general player base.

I'm not going on a "down with marketeers" rant. What I'm really saying it take some of the BS thier gonna feed you with a grain of salt - and realize that this idea HEAVILY effects their interests in the game vs. the benefit it could provide to most players in general.

Get real.


Over the hills and through the woods.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanNVicious View Post
You realize that the only limiting factor to what you're saying is currency right ? Making the game "too easy" as you have called it ALREADY HAPPENS NOW.
So we might as well remove any challenge left then?

Quote:
Having to respec out the IO's takes like 3 minutes. And you can tweak your characters powers and slots. That hardly makes it "time consuming and arduous", lol.
It takes me about ten, because not only do I have to reslot everything, I have to redo my power trays. On some characters, that means deleting a LOT of temp powers.

Quote:
The only real factor between being able to swap around IO's right now is having a ton of currency to do it with. Either by buying respecs, or by buying all new IO's. Its the same thing just without having to spends gob awful amounts of currency (inf, merits, etc, etc) to get it accomplished.
I have a decent stockpile of inf (I'm in the ebil club), and I wouldn't waste 180 mil on a respec recipe. I'm guessing most players that have that kind of inf wouldn't either.

Quote:
And the folks who can afford to do this now ? You got it - you read the other thread in this topic about "how much do you make in a week". As stated hundreds of millions and some billions are the norm for even decent marketeers in a given week. Usually even farming doesnt make that kind of currency if you wanted to argue for farmers.
I can pull about 500 mil/week farming easy. I just don't want/need to. I've pulled 400 mil in a single day before.

Quote:
So yea i'd say when a marketeer doom says the OP's idea - dont read too far into it. Especially docs example with happens now, but just puts the power into the hands of the marketeers vs. general player base.

I'm not going on a "down with marketeers" rant. What I'm really saying it take some of the BS thier gonna feed you with a grain of salt - and realize that this idea HEAVILY effects their interests in the game vs. the benefit it could provide to most players in general.

Get real.
How about you show me a fallacy first before I believe a word you say? Insulting an entire group of players is poor form.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonality View Post
It takes me about ten, because not only do I have to reslot everything, I have to redo my power trays. On some characters, that means deleting a LOT of temp powers.
/cleartray

is very useful at this point. Create the blank slate to work from



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Posted

I believe the point is being missed here. I am not worried about people twinking or swapping with top-end IO's. That happens already, I do it, other people do it.

Its the supply of the mid-range and mid-level stuff, stuff that just gets deleted in respecs for lvl 50 IO's or the stuff thats not worth buying another respec for to switch out or put back onto the market.

With people having to create sgs to create a mid-range supply this could be another way of getting some mid-range enhancements back onto the market.


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Posted

I make characters ten at a time and drop them when they get to 50. Along the way I tend to kit them out with low to medium IO sets, from good commons like Thunderstrike/Crushing Impact to low high end gear like Blessing of the Zephyr full sets. I've never had a +Recharge or +Recovery unique, and I've slotted one or two purples for fun (eg Chance for Knockdown in Fire Breath)

I plan ahead, so each one has a vet respec or two sitting around by the time they hit 50.
And yet I've never strip-mined any of them for their IOs to feed the next generation.

I can't be bothered - respeccing a 50 is boring and takes about 5 minutes too long. I'd rather just buy new ones on the market, its part of the anticipation/reward cycling for each character, just like levelling is.

So since that barrier (a 5 minute respec) is enough to turn me off, I think I dont need the easier option of unslotting IOs at any time.


 

Posted

Twinking toons, as many have already said, still happens. The medium in which it happens is influence rather than IOs themselves. This is good because it allows supply and demand to exist. If you are the kind of person that wants to twink toons, you can do that in game.

Introducing the OP's idea would eventually trickle demand away from the high end players and supply away from the low end players. Because the high end players could buy up what they needed to swap around - stuff would no longer be sold because no one would need influence after getting everything they want. Now the low end players could not get these items at the market and must rely on drops instead.

It would make the game too easy if everyone could twink without having to put some kind of effort into it. The bar is pretty low on that, you can make 30-100 mil a day farming AE for an hour a day and more than that if you use the market.


I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohenien View Post
Twinking toons, as many have already said, still happens. The medium in which it happens is influence rather than IOs themselves. This is good because it allows supply and demand to exist. If you are the kind of person that wants to twink toons, you can do that in game.

Introducing the OP's idea would eventually trickle demand away from the high end players and supply away from the low end players. Because the high end players could buy up what they needed to swap around - stuff would no longer be sold because no one would need influence after getting everything they want. Now the low end players could not get these items at the market and must rely on drops instead.

It would make the game too easy if everyone could twink without having to put some kind of effort into it. The bar is pretty low on that, you can make 30-100 mil a day farming AE for an hour a day and more than that if you use the market.
How would supply growing and demand decreasing make it harder for lower level/caliber/experienced players to get their hands on items?


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Posted

Quote:
You have to realize anyone who "plays" the market will be devastated by this idea. It will simply destroy most if not all of the high end "niches" and their profits will simply disappear. Of course anyone in that position is gonna post a significantly scathing "anti idea" against the OP's good idea.
Blah, blah, blah. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Short of eliminating the market, I don't think anything can be done which will make my profits disappear. If the market changes, I'll just change how I make profits. And no matter what, if the market is there and is player controlled in any manner, I'll find a way to make a profit. Other changes have happened which people predicted would kill the market, or kill marketeering, or make it too difficult to profit. Every time the game or market has changed, I've just changed. I'm richer now than I even imagined I could be a year ago, and it's gotten easier for me than it used to be.

No one competent at profiting from the market really cares about market changes because they will make it impossible to get rich on the market. There are a lot of players in this forum that know more about the game than you or I do who probably will think a lot of the ideas presented here to "fix" the market are bad for the game. And I'm inclined to believe them far more than I am inclined to believe you and your baseless negativism.

RagManX


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Posted

I don't think supply would increase as more people would stop farming once they get the amount of IOs they want to move between toons. With demand going down, people may sell less often as well since people arent buying.


I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enots View Post
I believe the point is being missed here. I am not worried about people twinking or swapping with top-end IO's. That happens already, I do it, other people do it.

Its the supply of the mid-range and mid-level stuff, stuff that just gets deleted in respecs for lvl 50 IO's or the stuff thats not worth buying another respec for to switch out or put back onto the market.

With people having to create sgs to create a mid-range supply this could be another way of getting some mid-range enhancements back onto the market.
Alright, suppose (I'm actually digging up a weird suggestion I made in I9 beta, but retooling it for a serious purpose) whenever a player respecs, all IOs that would ordinarily be "destroyed" actually get sent to a market-maker: we'll call him Dr. Brainstorm. Dr. Brainstorm would then be programmed to sell those enhancements on the markets at a reasonable rate so as to not suddenly flood the market, and at prices consistent with the current trading activity. He would do so randomly, so the person respecing would have no specific advantage to timing the market for when those enhancements got sold.

This would put those IOs back into supply, but they wouldn't profit the person respecing just as happens now. If this could be done, would this theoretically satisfy the basis for your suggestion?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohenien View Post
I don't think supply would increase as more people would stop farming once they get the amount of IOs they want to move between toons. With demand going down, people may sell less often as well since people arent buying.
As both of our views are pure speculation I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Alright, suppose (I'm actually digging up a weird suggestion I made in I9 beta, but retooling it for a serious purpose) whenever a player respecs, all IOs that would ordinarily be "destroyed" actually get sent to a market-maker: we'll call him Dr. Brainstorm. Dr. Brainstorm would then be programmed to sell those enhancements on the markets at a reasonable rate so as to not suddenly flood the market, and at prices consistent with the current trading activity. He would do so randomly, so the person respecing would have no specific advantage to timing the market for when those enhancements got sold.

This would put those IOs back into supply, but they wouldn't profit the person respecing just as happens now. If this could be done, would this theoretically satisfy the basis for your suggestion?
Hmmmm.... an interesting idea. It would also have the advantage of removing inf from the system.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Alright, suppose (I'm actually digging up a weird suggestion I made in I9 beta, but retooling it for a serious purpose) whenever a player respecs, all IOs that would ordinarily be "destroyed" actually get sent to a market-maker: we'll call him Dr. Brainstorm. Dr. Brainstorm would then be programmed to sell those enhancements on the markets at a reasonable rate so as to not suddenly flood the market, and at prices consistent with the current trading activity. He would do so randomly, so the person respecing would have no specific advantage to timing the market for when those enhancements got sold.

This would put those IOs back into supply, but they wouldn't profit the person respecing just as happens now. If this could be done, would this theoretically satisfy the basis for your suggestion?

I actually really like this idea.

I think a great system would be for the non-generic IO's to be put up for 1 Inf, and the proceeds go to the seller/respecer. That way the market is supplied, the seller/respecer is still getting more than they originally would. Everybody wins. This is assuming that you can still keep ten enhancements if you wish to move them to another toon.


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