martial arts is horrible primary for a stalker because it has NO built in multi target powers, the set is 100% single target unless you get patron pools.
Quote:
I couldn't disagree with you more. My MA/Nin is one of the most efficient characters I've played to date.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
martial arts is horrible primary for a stalker because it has NO built in multi target powers, the set is 100% single target unless you get patron pools.
|
DB/DA sounds about right, Tam.
Quote:
Being single target isn't horrible for stalkers though. My only badge whoar is a nb/nin stalker who's only non st attack is golden dragonfly, which is pretty much st most of the time. I just thought db would be funny because you'd be out of hide for so long doing combos and such.
|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
martial arts is horrible primary for a stalker because it has NO built in multi target powers, the set is 100% single target unless you get patron pools.
|
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]
i used to have a MA/nin stalker, but i hated how i was useless on team and couldnt handle a 3 person mob solo.
Quote:
Don't rely on the combos :P
|
Originally Posted by TamakiRevolution
Being single target isn't horrible for stalkers though. My only badge whoar is a nb/nin stalker who's only non st attack is golden dragonfly, which is pretty much st most of the time. I just thought db would be funny because you'd be out of hide for so long doing combos and such.
|
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
As a devoted solo player, I can't speak about teaming, but handling a 3 mob|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i used to have a MA/nin stalker, but i hated how i was
useless on team and couldnt handle a 3 person mob solo. |
spawn is cake for any stalker (worthy of the name) above L12.
Steps:
1> Pick a mob you can 1-shot with - BU -> AS .... 1 Down.
1a> While AS is animating target #2 (mouse clik doesn't interrupt AS).
2> Placate #2
2a> Target #3 - Use your biggest power that will Crit. (Impale, for a
spiny, for instance). Follow that up immediately... #3 should be dead now.
If not, finish him. It shouldn't take but 2 or 3 shots.
3> If you 1-shot crit #3 and killed him (happens quite a bit with even-con minions),
your AS will probably recharge before #2 Unplacates - standard AS strike applies...
All 3 dead now...
If it took a few shots or if you haven't got enough recharge in your powers
yet, you're in a simple 1v1 melee - this should be easily winnable.
Unless you're low enough level that you don't have Placate yet (L12, I think),
or your difficulty is set too high, or your powers aren't slotted properly yet,
killing three typical mobs should be a cakewalk 90+% of the time.
The only real wrinkle happens if your attacks whiff on #3. If you whiff on
#1, you have the option to simply wait for AS again... Whiffing on the final
guy is no big deal. But the middle guy can lead to a 2-v-1 fight against
you. Not usually a big problem even then - just pretend you're a Brute, or
Lance Armstrong and SMASH or hop on your bicycle as the situation warrants...
As for the OP, *any* stalker is just fine in the PvE game...
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Stalkers were never meant to be AoE machines in the first place. In fact, of all the stalker power sets, DB and ELM are the only two that can be considered as remotely competent in that area. Stalker is the wrong choice from someone who wants to play a melee AT with good AoEs. Needless to say, using that particular criteria to measure stalker primary sets is inaccurate at best.
Quote:
Spine Burst, Ripper, and Throw Spines would like to disagree.
|
Originally Posted by baron_inferno
DB and ELM are the only two that can be considered as remotely competent in that area.
|
I forgot about Spines. Even so, I personally don't think spines is quite on par with DB and ELM when it comes to AoE capability. ELM is pretty self explanatory as it retains all of the AoE powers in the brute version. Essentially it's really down to the comparison between DB and Spines.
Spines basically has two 90 degree cones with high/moderate damage and a really horrible PBAoE due to ridiculously long animation (3 seconds), high end cost (15.2) and semi high recharge time (15 seconds). All of that for moderate damage. The 15 feet area of effect is a plus but is it really enough to make up for all of that? I have a Thorny Assault Dom that skipped Thorn Burst and if I had a Spines stalker, I would skip it too.
DB in the mean time also has two 90 degree cones both with superior damage, a large radius PBAoE combo (sweep) and a cone DoT combo (attack vitals). With that in mind, as an addendum to my original assertion, I still believe that both ELM and DB are the top AoE sets for stalkers except now we have spines following close behind.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
As a devoted solo player, I can't speak about teaming, but handling a 3 mob
spawn is cake for any stalker (worthy of the name) above L12. Steps: 1> Pick a mob you can 1-shot with - BU -> AS .... 1 Down. 1a> While AS is animating target #2 (mouse clik doesn't interrupt AS). 2> Placate #2 2a> Target #3 - Use your biggest power that will Crit. (Impale, for a spiny, for instance). Follow that up immediately... #3 should be dead now. If not, finish him. It shouldn't take but 2 or 3 shots. 3> If you 1-shot crit #3 and killed him (happens quite a bit with even-con minions), your AS will probably recharge before #2 Unplacates - standard AS strike applies... All 3 dead now... If it took a few shots or if you haven't got enough recharge in your powers yet, you're in a simple 1v1 melee - this should be easily winnable. Unless you're low enough level that you don't have Placate yet (L12, I think), or your difficulty is set too high, or your powers aren't slotted properly yet, killing three typical mobs should be a cakewalk 90+% of the time. The only real wrinkle happens if your attacks whiff on #3. If you whiff on #1, you have the option to simply wait for AS again... Whiffing on the final guy is no big deal. But the middle guy can lead to a 2-v-1 fight against you. Not usually a big problem even then - just pretend you're a Brute, or Lance Armstrong and SMASH or hop on your bicycle as the situation warrants... As for the OP, *any* stalker is just fine in the PvE game... Regards, 4 |
i wasnt talking about a mob of 3 enemies, im talking a map spawned for 3 people (mob size about 5-8 enemies)
i could handle a 3 enemy mob (solo spawn), but not much more than 4 enemies at a time
Quote:
Well I dunno what was wrong with yours but my EM/Regen used to be the "scrapper" on the team before i pvp only respected him, I used to run ITF all the time and kill just as much as a scrapper with plenty of green in the bar, stalkers are good on teams but have to be built for it and only it and that part does suck.
|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i used to have a MA/nin stalker, but i hated how i was useless on team and couldnt handle a 3 person mob solo.
|
Quote:
Stalkers are not Brutes/Tanks; they are not clumping foes on their person and thus benefit far less from PBAoE attacks that only have a 7' radius. AoE damage is more about the geometry of your attacks than it is about DPA. DPA only matters if you have a completely fluid attack chain for AoE attacks, and one second of animation can effectively be replaced with another second from a different skill with higher DPA. Stalkers don't really have the ability to pony up 100% fluid sustained AoE chains, so targeting geometry is more important than all other statistics.|
Originally Posted by baron_inferno
Spines basically has two 90 degree cones with high/moderate damage and a really horrible PBAoE due to ridiculously long animation (3 seconds), high end cost (15.2) and semi high recharge time (15 seconds). All of that for moderate damage. The 15 feet area of effect is a plus but is it really enough to make up for all of that? I have a Thorny Assault Dom that skipped Thorn Burst and if I had a Spines stalker, I would skip it too.
|
Spine Burst is a 360 degree PBAoE that has a 15' radius. There's nothing in a Stalker primary that compares to this outside of Lightning Rod. If there is a spawn with 10+ targets, Spine Burst will likely run a hit check up to its target cap. You say Spine Burst has poor DPA, but it actually trumps Thunder Strike in this metric (Thunder Strike is doing 53 points in 3.3 seconds, while Spine Burst is doing 63 in 3 seconds).
The other skills for Spines are arguably the best. Throw Spines is a 90 degree cone with 30' of range, and it does more damage than Shock Wave while causing no scatter from knock back. This skill's geometry, ignoring the power of range enhancements in cones, again lets it run 10 hit checks nearly every use. Ripper does nearly as much damage as One Thousand Cuts, but has less radius and a 5 target cap. This skill beats Jacob's Ladder in every single statistic.
A Spines character will trump nearly every set in AoE damage, most certainly beating out Dual Blades and possibly even Electric Melee in sustained AoE damage. Lightning Rod is undoubtedly the king of AoE burst damage, and ELM also has some descent AoE attacks to back it up, but every skill outside of Lightning Rod is thoroughly beaten by Spine Burst and Throw Spines for AoE damage, and then there's Ripper for clumps of Lts. and Bosses.
Electric Melee also lacks a viable option for dealing AoE damage from Hide-- this is why the geometry on Spine Burst and Throw Spines is so important. Spines is dealing a 50% critical hit to 10 targets, while ELM has no ability that can reliably hit this many targets from Hide.
Quote:
The attack vitals combo ends with Vengeful Slice (a single target attack). So the DoT will only apply to that target, not in a cone (but it's a pretty hefty DoT).|
Originally Posted by baron_inferno
DB in the mean time also has two 90 degree cones both with superior damage, a large radius PBAoE combo (sweep) and a cone DoT combo (attack vitals). With that in mind, as an addendum to my original assertion, I still believe that both ELM and DB are the top AoE sets for stalkers except now we have spines following close behind.
|
Quote:
| A Spines character will trump nearly every set in AoE damage, most certainly beating out Dual Blades and possibly even Electric Melee in sustained AoE damage. |
However, while Spines will potentially beat out those sets in AoE, it definitely falls behind in Single Target. Outside of Assassin's Strike, Spines is stuck with Lunge (its only *good* ST attack), Impale (a grueling 2.5sec ranged attack) and Ripper (not really a ST attack but good enough) to hammer down hard targets.
Dual Blades has several decent ST attacks and a strong DoT combo to go with them. Elec Melee has the quirks of its AoEs doing good ST dmg along with the AoE (talking the smashing portion of Thunderstrike, the fast and jumping Chain Induction and the focused dmg within a 4' area on Lightning Rod).
I enjoy the fact that each of these sets have their strengths and compare decently to eachother. There really isn't a *bad* combo for Stalkers...well, maybe non-NBorBS/Elec armor...
Quote:
Yeah, Spines is poo when it comes to single target damage. I almost never use Assassin Strike on a team unless a Sapper or other target absolutely needs to be eliminated. Spines pretty much should use Placate and Hide on teams for dealing criticals with its AoE attacks.
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The attack vitals combo ends with Vengeful Slice (a single target attack). However, while Spines will potentially beat out those sets in AoE, it definitely falls behind in Single Target. Outside of Assassin's Strike, Spines is stuck with Lunge (its only *good* ST attack), Impale (a grueling 2.5sec ranged attack) and Ripper (not really a ST attack but good enough) to hammer down hard targets.
|
Quote:
My Bad - I misunderstood that point.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i wasnt talking about a mob of 3 enemies, im talking a map spawned for 3 people (mob size about 5-8 enemies)
i could handle a 3 enemy mob (solo spawn), but not much more than 4 enemies at a time |
On the one hand, that is the case where Divine Avalanche, Kuji-In Retsu,
Dull Pain, and similar powers really make a difference.
On the other hand (imho) you're starting to edge up to the border line
where a "stalker" might not be the best AT for that playstyle.
Historically, stalkers excel at taking out a vital and difficult mob leaving the
riff-raff masses for other AT's.
Don't get me wrong - stalkers *can* stick around and scrap it out to some
degree, but I don't personally think that's the AT's forte.
For Stalkers I tend to set my difficulty at +1 or +2 and my mobsize to 1
rather than 0 / +3 or +4.
As others have mentioned, AoE isn't typically a core strength of the AT
for the most part.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
I have 3 level 50 Stalkers but I've never had problems with getting in clumps of mobs for AoEs, be it 7 feet or 10 feet. If I'm solo, all the mobs in the aggro range comes straight for me after I come out of assassinate. If I'm in the group, I'll just be hanging around the brutes because that's where all the mobs will be clumped around. While it's true that stalkers don't have taunt aura but it isn't exactly difficult to adjust your position in relation to where the mobs are to get maximum effect out of your AoEs. That to me is more important than geometry and it's what you have to do to maximize the capability of DB. It isn't as easy as some of the other sets when it comes to positioning your AoEs due to the combo system but it isn't exceedingly hard either.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Stalkers are not Brutes/Tanks; they are not clumping foes on their person and thus benefit far less from PBAoE attacks that only have a 7' radius. AoE damage is more about the geometry of your attacks than it is about DPA.
|
Quote:
| You say Spine Burst has poor DPA, but it actually trumps Thunder Strike in this metric (Thunder Strike is doing 53 points in 3.3 seconds, while Spine Burst is doing 63 in 3 seconds). |
Quote:
| Ripper does nearly as much damage as One Thousand Cuts, but has less radius and a 5 target cap. This skill beats Jacob's Ladder in every single statistic. |
Quote:
I'm *pretty* sure you're counting the smashing damage of Thunder Strike in the AoE. It probably does 61 smashing dmg to the foe you target and 58 energy dmg the target and all the foes around it (but I'm not looking at the numbers but I'm sure that's where you're mistaken). Common mistake.| I'm not sure where you're getting your data but at level 50 Spine Burst does 72.8 base damage (55.1+4.45x4) while Thunder Strike does 119.9 (61.2+58.7). That's a pretty significant difference in damage (40%) for a 0.3 difference in activation time (9%). Another thing to consider is that ELM has KD as its mitigation so it is pretty common to use Thunder Strike right after Lightning Rod so the mobs are still in the process of getting up. Spine Burst doesn't have that luxury so unless you're have high defense, you could find yourself vulnerable during that 3 seconds. |
For Spine Burst, whatever dmg it does, it does to everything around you.
Quote:
My mistake. I knew I disliked ELM for a reason :P
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'm *pretty* sure you're counting the smashing damage of Thunder Strike in the AoE. It probably does 61 smashing dmg to the foe you target and 58 energy dmg the target and all the foes around it (but I'm not looking at the numbers but I'm sure that's where you're mistaken). Common mistake.
For Spine Burst, whatever dmg it does, it does to everything around you. |
Been kinda bored and decided I wanted to try and make the worst stalker primary/secondary for the hell of it. I don't just want to gimp myself exactly, just take a really bad combo and make it half way decent. The worst I can come up with is db/da :P I know dark armor has a nice heal and such, but it's just funny having a stalker armor set that has 2 pbaoe toggles... and a rez for a tier 9. So what's your vote for the worst combo?
<:[ shark goes nom nom nom ]:>
[QUOTE=theOcho;3409811]As to the REAL reason I'll be leaving, I'm afraid it is indeed because Tamaki Revolution dc'd on me during a RSF.[/QUOTE]