The solo leveling limit conjecture
Concerning practical play:
The only way I could approach 36 hours to 50 (or, more accurately, have approached, which also discards exploits) was on a double XP weekend where I was on an 8-man team almost constantly during my play. I did go 1-50 during the double XP period, though I never took a more accurate measure of my time (and, obviously, I did in fact sleep)
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Only things that end up coming to mind are things that can slow you down - calculations aside, you're going to run into groups that give more or less XP, arcs that do, etc. I'd assume, however (and I know what that ends up doing...) that it all balances out... if I ran your challenge, in other words, I might break the time (say) at 25, then hit some particularly nasty group (resistances, lower XP, widely spread missions - how's travel time in this anyway? Run mission, log, log in, use mission teleporter?) I can't avoid that drags me back into range by 30.
If I was going to try this challenge, and I found some way I could temporarily beat the time, I'd ouro that thing to death.
EDIT:
Just ran a sample mission or two on a L36 blaster.
First (PWNZ badge, heroic) I got 43K XP of which 8800 was mission completion bonus. That was in patrol mode, so "raw" numbers are 2/3 of those.
Second (radio mission, heroic, defeat boss only) I got 18K of which 6400 was mission completion bonus. Still patrol mode. From the time I clicked "enter mission" to the time I clicked "Exit" was 2 min 19 seconds. 854K for level, so we have on the order of 1% of level XP per mission complete bonus, at 2 minutes per mission, at level 36. So again it looks like we're not going to get more than a couple percent of speedup for mission completions.
So I can't see any reason why we'd want to do this anywhere but AE.
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So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I got my claws/sr brute from 30 to 50 in about 6 hours and my fire/shield scrapper from 20 to 50 in about 8 all over the last week.
I got my claws/sr brute from 30 to 50 in about 6 hours and my fire/shield scrapper from 20 to 50 in about 8 all over the last week.
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1. The fastest way to accumulate XP/end is ST +2 boss kiling
2. The rate of endurance recovery is at best fully slotted stamina over the career
3. The rate that endurance can be generated caps how fast you can level solo
2. Is certainly wrong.
1. Most likely wrong but it assumes that an endless stream of bosses can be survived indefinitely another popping up as fast as the last one is killed and never doing more damage than can be absorbed at all levels.
3. goes out the window. Especially seeing that endurance for particular AT powerset combinations can be generated faster than it can be consumed. Even those that cant , can just buy blues and use what drops.
Someone may or may not be able to beat the challenge but they won't have demonstrated much of anything.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I'm actually sort of hoping someone comes along and tells me a way to beat this that bypasses the assumptions rather than breaks them. Something I just haven't thought of. I'm pretty sure the assumed limits themselves are practically unbreakable as stated. But they might not represent the best possible options. |
Whether the Warshade could manage to sustain his indefinate combat against +2 bosses, I don't know. I can tank Mako with help from an /Emp defender, but I'm not sure I could solo a converbelt of +2 bosses.
Of course, Stygian Cirlce is not available at level 2 either.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Power Sink on an /elec blaster after it becomes available would seem to also throw the endurance calculations out of whack.
Does illustrate the fact that this is not one "Conjecture" but at least 3
1. The fastest way to accumulate XP/end is ST +2 boss kiling 2. The rate of endurance recovery is at best fully slotted stamina over the career 3. The rate that endurance can be generated caps how fast you can level solo 2. Is certainly wrong. 1. Most likely wrong but it assumes that an endless stream of bosses can be survived indefinitely another popping up as fast as the last one is killed and never doing more damage than can be absorbed at all levels. 3. goes out the window. Especially seeing that endurance for particular AT powerset combinations can be generated faster than it can be consumed. Even those that cant , can just buy blues and use what drops. Someone may or may not be able to beat the challenge but they won't have demonstrated much of anything. |
But here's me at 8:49 pm
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/618/screen1ug.png
And here's me at 9:06 pm
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6456/screen2e.png
8.9 bubbles at 31 in 17 minutes. That included loading into and out of a mission twice (I have a new computer thats quite nice, so the load times are short, under 20 seconds).
My fire scrapper at the same level could have done it in about 13 min. This was a SS/SD brute, so factor in the fact that I had low fury sometimes from whiffing, rage crashes without enough recharge to double stack, and facing a mob that has high S/L resists and little fire resist.
No intentions of sharing my method (hence the lack of seeing anything but landscape and my xp bar and clock) but I do promise that it was done solo.
Yep.
I don't think it proves any of those things. But here's me at 8:49 pm http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/618/screen1ug.png And here's me at 9:06 pm http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6456/screen2e.png 8.9 bubbles at 31 in 17 minutes. That included loading into and out of a mission twice (I have a new computer thats quite nice, so the load times are short, under 20 seconds). My fire scrapper at the same level could have done it in about 13 min. This was a SS/SD brute, so factor in the fact that I had low fury sometimes from whiffing, rage crashes without enough recharge to double stack, and facing a mob that has high S/L resists and little fire resist. No intentions of sharing my method (hence the lack of seeing anything but landscape and my xp bar and clock) but I do promise that it was done solo. |
If you can beat it doesn't prove that end is not a constraint if you can't beat it, it doesn't prove it is.
If you can beat it great but you havent demonstrated end is not a constraint.
If you can't beat it you haven't demonstrated end is a constraint.
If I said the maximum rotational velocity of the axles of an automobile were the constraints for landspeed then miscalculated what they were it would be something similar.
OK, it's apparent you aren't going to share details, but are you doing something we could consider remotely normal? Are you doing something like fighting foes that give huge reward compared to how easy they are to kill? (Bearing in mind that this is all sort of slippery, since even the metric of fighting +2 bosses in a never ending stream would probably be considering that we're not allowed to do that, and not at full reward when we could even approximate it.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
No what I was saying was the original is too ill formed to prove anything.
If you can beat it doesn't prove that end is not a constraint if you can't beat it, it doesn't prove it is. If you can beat it great but you havent demonstrated end is not a constraint. If you can't beat it you haven't demonstrated end is a constraint. If I said the maximum rotational velocity of the axles of an automobile were the constraints for landspeed then miscalculated what they were it would be something similar. |
OK, it's apparent you aren't going to share details, but are you doing something we could consider remotely normal? Are you doing something like fighting foes that give huge reward compared to how easy they are to kill? (Bearing in mind that this is all sort of slippery, since even the metric of fighting +2 bosses in a never ending stream would probably be considering that we're not allowed to do that, and not at full reward when we could even approximate it.)
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My methods aren't normal, you can assume its AE related. I've got about forty local ae arcs at the moment. Every set does something well, some of my arcs are sets designed to maximize AoE damage, some designed to let a single target demon shine, its all about the best fit in any given situation. Take a lowbie fire/kin. Low AoE damage means that you need a ton of enemies and you need to be very safe from them so you can sit there with cages and hotfeet and melt them to death. A scrapper on the other hand needs fewer higher value targets and the ability to kill them quickly, while safety is alot less of a concern.
The AE gives you a ridiculous number of tools for tweaking these circumstances. Everything I do falls under "working as intended", but there's a line they've had to draw between making AE something fun with alot of options for people to make stories and cutting out every possible avenue towards powergaming.
I am intimately familiar with that line.
Brainz is da sexeh!
I tried to run an optimized solo streak to 50 on my elec/sd scrapper last week. I made a custom AE mish for the purpose, built to fit the strengths of the toon. I made it to 50 in 82 hours, and that's nowhere near the 36 hrs.
I didn't know about this thread back when I decided to roll and challenge myself this way, hence the reason I went with AoE heavy approach.
The reason for picking AoE was also based on 3 things: More kills in one shot = faster xp, and more kills/sec = more inspiration which in turn leads to alleviating the problem of endurance and survival. The third reason was the removal of travel between missions/contact which I figured should compensate for the lack of end bonus. An unexpected added bonus I found was that levelling on a high level mish didn't lower my xp/min as I was still auto-sk'd to min level of the mish.
I found 2 issues slowing me down: Survivability and endurance. For the ride up to SO's, hitting and killing stuff with ST was fairly slow, so I found an AE mish with nothing but high rewarding, single mob spawns. Needless to say, they took me down often enough for it to be tedious at best and with the sparingly few insp slots it was less than fun.
Once getting past 32 things really started to pick up, and with the second big AoE and more insp slots, I could stay at defense cap with purple insps and still get enough insps to keep my end lasting reasonably well, even though I sometimes ended up nearly detoggling on the last boss of the spawn, thus having to rest before next bunch.
Basically, I don't see it happening to even reach <50 hours. Especially if you'd try to survive with the drops from single enemies.
Any and all spelling, grammar and logic errors are intentional so this post will blend seamlessly into the Internet
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Unbelievable. You, [subject name here], must be the pride of [subject hometown here]!
Does this conjecture take influence into consideration? There is a significant difference when truely SOLOING.
Based on the numbers provided, it seems that you are assuming an optimized build through-out the experience of lvl2-50. So based on mathematical rigour, I'm going to step-down because it seems that this is more of a regression analysis to find a theoretical limit (which is fine - I just can't do it well enough to give any meaningful insight).
Practically, I did try. Using fire/regen, and not using sands of mu (no, AoE right? That really hurts ), I stayed ahead until DO's would have helped. The lack of ideal acc and end drain with attacking hurt most.
Edit: general survivability isnt as good either, but that maybe a secondary issue
I'll try again when I have time with a toon that will start with 5million inf to better simulate your model, but as it stands many factors are contributing to a less-than-ideal leveling experience.
I feel that this will become, as it stands, a mathematically speculative exercise. I really wish I had the skills to contribute further.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Scientist:
I wonder about controllers and masterminds myself, because they aren't bound to this limit directly (as are some powerset combinations). But I'm curious if their ability to side-step this limit comes with other disadvantages that prevent them from exceeding it anyway, which is the purpose of my post. |
And in fact in some cases Mastermind Henchmen can be limited by their own End consumption as well.
Does illustrate the fact that this is not one "Conjecture" but at least 3
1. The fastest way to accumulate XP/end is ST +2 boss kiling 2. The rate of endurance recovery is at best fully slotted stamina over the career 3. The rate that endurance can be generated caps how fast you can level solo 2. Is certainly wrong. |
Actually, I considered just posting the table itself, without calculations, and simply asking if people could beat the table.
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I feel that this will become, as it stands, a mathematically speculative exercise.
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spiritfox already asserts its possible with specialized AE missions, which are probably designed to leverage AoEs to a sufficiently high level that they exceed the DPE limits of single target attacks, possibly combined with using critters that have reward bonuses. If the limit could have been broken anywhere, I assumed that would be how it would be at least one way to do it.
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Basically, if no one can beat this, I move on to better calculations. If its beatable, I go back to square one. |
That took 80 hours or so.
I'll say your number can't be beat.
Too many alts to list.
Woops... miss read. Thought one of the solo requirements was "no AoE," and I'm wrong. Oh, well. I'll try again with *all* the correct data now.
Thanks for a prompt reply.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Actually, taken in isolation, both #1 *and* #2 are wrong. The conjecture doesn't assert either #1 or #2. It only asserts #3, for the case where you do not have special powerset-specific endurance recovery or management powers. I mention the calculations themselves as a matter of course, but not all of my justifications for believing that they mesh together in a way that generates a reasonable leveling envelope. There's a sufficient amount of judgement in that thought process that its not concrete enough to really debate around.
Actually, I considered just posting the table itself, without calculations, and simply asking if people could beat the table. |
A better test to see if endurance is indeed the limiting factor would be to see how fast someone can level with a tray of blues and their normal build vs how fast they level with no blues and their normal build. 20 large blues would provide an extra 1.66~ end/sec over the course of 20 minutes. If you really wanted to be thourough try the same thing over the course of 10 minutes see how much xp is gained.
If end is the constraint you should see significant improvement from the null case to the large blue/30 sec case. If not it isn't.
In your chart the time to go from 48-49 is 2.39 hours
That is 3912300 xp or roughly 170 +2 bosses which equates to a dps of a little less than 55 hp/sec
The scrapper forum has builds that can sustain dps of several times that indefinitely.
Let me put it like this. The maximal rotational velocity an axle can achieve before disintegrating because its tensile strength is exceeded is a limiting a constraint on the speed of a conventional automobile. I am certain that this is both so and not particularly meaningful. Other factors provide much tighter constraints than that one.
A better test to see if endurance is indeed the limiting factor would be to see how fast someone can level with a tray of blues and their normal build vs how fast they level with no blues and their normal build. |
However, being able to consistently break the limit I posted is less vulnerable to that charge, because I've flipped the sufficiency requirement around. Every counter-example to the conjecture is significant because its asserting possibility, not generality.
You seem to be suggesting that the exercise is pointless because the leveling enveloping I'm discussing is far outside the realm of possibility, so its irrelevant if its true. However, that's the entire point of the exercise. You don't actually know that to be a fact, and neither do I. And spiritfox is asserting its actually breakable.
What you're doing is making the mistake people made before the invention of the airplane, and asserting powered flight is impossible because no locomotive fast enough would be light enough. Ultra-high performance leveling is a sufficiently esoteric art that I'm spending some time trying to avoid that error.
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I can. I put that specific set of circumstances to the test last year in six different builds. However, that's purely anecdotal: you could argue that the reason why its true is not because endurance itself is a limit, but because I'm inefficient.
However, being able to consistently break the limit I posted is less vulnerable to that charge, because I've flipped the sufficiency requirement around. Every counter-example to the conjecture is significant because its asserting possibility, not generality. You seem to be suggesting that the exercise is pointless because the leveling enveloping I'm discussing is far outside the realm of possibility, so its irrelevant if its true. However, that's the entire point of the exercise. You don't actually know that to be a fact, and neither do I. And spiritfox is asserting its actually breakable. What you're doing is making the mistake people made before the invention of the airplane, and asserting powered flight is impossible because no locomotive fast enough would be light enough. Ultra-high performance leveling is a sufficiently esoteric art that I'm spending some time trying to avoid that error. |
If this were indeed the case, obtaining recovery IOs, or endurance generating powers would cause your leveling speed to increase proportionately.
Now anyway back to your challenge another way to do it so it is not so muddled is to take a range of values and translate that into a number of plus 2 bosses killed in a given amount of time.
So in the case I just looked of going to 48-49 the question becomes can you kill 163 or more +2 bosses in less than 2 hours 24 minutes.
This can be easily tested by building an AE mission with all bosses and checking the time it took for a given build.
Edit: And beating the challenge would only prove that the original statement was ill formed.
Now anyway back to your challenge another way to do it so it is not so muddled is to take a range of values and translate that into a number of plus 2 bosses killed in a given amount of time.
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If you think my calculations are flawed, fine, I concede they are flawed. If you think they are worthless to the discussion, that's a matter of opinion I will not attempt to dissuade you from. I'm asking if anyone can level faster than a set of numbers I picked based on my own judgement on an upper limit of leveling that I believe to be primarily influenced by endurance. That's all. If you don't have such a method, and aren't interested in finding such a method, you can continue to challenge the assumptions behind the limits I've picked but since I've already stated that the individual assumptions that are factored into the limit are just there for rough estimate, and based entirely on my own judgement and not a strict numerical proof of sufficiency, you'd basically be arguing that the numbers I say are mostly my guesswork are nothing more than my guesswork. Gratz, you win.
And on the subject of "muddled." Since I'm asking for volunteers to test a limit, I asserted *a* limit. Not a range of limits, or a fuzzy set of ambiguous references. A limit. Its either breakable, or not breakable. If its breakable, I would like to know why. If its not, then its not.
Edit: And beating the challenge would only prove that the original statement was ill formed. |
Its trivially easy to create a limit that is essentially *impossible* to beat. The impossible to beat limit is the calculated limit of defeating the maximum reward value target spawnable at your level plus the optimal level scaling value, at the maximum AoE limit, with the maximal mission completion bonus per kill normalized with the best possible zoning time. It comes out to leveling to 50 in about an hour.
Its also trivially easy to spend a month making a very complex set of calculations projecting the best case leveling estimate given a set of about a hundred different assumptions, which generates a number you can *defend* but is also worthless to discussion.
This is my attempt to strike the interesting middle ground. But I don't expect it to be an interesting point of discussion for everyone, because I'm not currently interested in refining an estimate I've *deliberately* made extremely coarse specifically for discussion purposes. This is not about math or numerical methodology. This is about fast leveling.
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Interesting calculations, but I do have to disagree with one point: AoEs can actually be far more efficient DPE than single target attacks if you hit enough targets. In general, if you hit 3+ enemies with a cone or 4+ enemies with a targeted AoE you'll do more efficient damage than single target blasts.
In addition, some characters (in particular Blasters and Masterminds) can regain endurance faster than they can burn it without needing any extreme measures in slotting or power selection. My Archery / Energy Blaster cannot run out of endurance unless he gets sapped or hit with a recovery debuff... his most energy-intensive attack chain plus his toggles do not equal his recovery, and that's with no recovery uniques or procs and a sub-100 million build. A fully frankenslotted character or one using cheap to mid-price set IOs can easily have 50-60% or more endurance reduction in every power, so if you don't use a lot of toggles you can often get your recovery higher than your endurance use with just stamina and a few minor set bonuses (or even just Stamina). My Bots/Traps MM doesn't even have Stamina (or any recovery IOs) and he only ever needs blue pills in AV fights where he has to spam Web Grenade... in normal combat he uses less endurance per fight than he regains since the bots do 90% of the work (I tend to stand there with the Leadership toggles on immobilizing any bosses and tossing an occasional heal or Acid Mortar).
Of course, with the exception of Masterminds most ATs that can fight +2 bosses at lower levels are pretty toggle-heavy so your math still holds up well in practice... truly endurance neutral Brutes or Scrappers tend to require either a massive investment or a sub-optimal attack chain / toggle use. And Masterminds are quite slow to level until the 20s compared to Brutes and Scrappers so I'm not sure if their endurance advantage makes up for that.
Still, if you had IOs pre-crafted in storage (so no lost time marketing for them) I'd think something like a Thugs/Traps MM or Fire/Regen Scrapper could beat your numbers. The key would be fully slotting IOs in the mid 20s to maximize survivability and damage, since endurance is pretty much a non-issue for those power sets.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
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