Legitimacy of a G15's macro keys in CoX?
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2009-12-28 08:30 in Player Questions
Quote:
So the part that's not the most?|
Originally Posted by Crazy_Dragon
For the most part
|
Ultimately it's my understanding that the G15 is not something you want to use in any MMO for it's macro functionality as the EULA for almost any online game is going to prohibit it.
On the other hand if you're only using it for chatting purposes I don't know how they would know or if they would even care if they did.
Personally, I would just use the bind function to play it safe.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
Quote:
Running non-disruptive emotes in a specific sequence and for when the CC emotes aren't quite suitable for a char. |
Originally Posted by Radubadu
So the part that's not the most?
|
Sam: "My mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas."
Max: "Me too."
Stuff
Lots of people use the G15, and there are even 3 different guides for them here on the forums:
Kenja's G15 Master Guide by CuppaKenja [I10]
Multiple Character G15 Macro Setup by Duck LOrange
G15 Ignore Spammer Macro Creation by Snow Globe
[ ProTip: The banner is a link to art refs!! | The Khellection | The HBAS Repository | Brute Guides (4/16/10) | How To Post An Image - A Quick Guide ]
Biggest Troll on the forums? I'll give you a hint:
Quote:
See above lol as I said I'm fairly certain it does violate the EULA as you are automating part of your gameplay even if it is just emotes. |
Originally Posted by Crazy_Dragon
Running non-disruptive emotes in a specific sequence and for when the CC emotes aren't quite suitable for a char.
|
Again I don't know how severely they would punish such an offense IF they were to discover it, it's not as if you're setting it up to play for you while you go to the bathroom, make a sandwich or whatever. It seems like while it technically violates it it's in a way that in my opinion shouldn't be punished if discovered but I'm NOT a dev lol... the other end of the spectrum is as stated above having it set up to essentially play the game for you which people get banned for in other MMOs all the time and I would assume the same would hold true in CoX.
Edit: looking at Kenja's guide, I would suggest it as it simply replaces having to hit two keys with one but you still have to bind the two key command in game. Anytime I see the word "sequence" in regards to G15 use I get leery so like I said I wouldn't use it for that purpose but that's just my opinion and I'm probably overly paranoid about such things.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
The developers have no issue with the G15 as long as you don't use it to fully automate your play. As in, no walk in, hit one button, leave, come back to a dead room.
I myself use it (with a .1 sec delay after the "/" key) for global channel binds.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Quote:
In this case I think you are being a bit overly-paranoid. How could a MMO prohibit you from using a commerically available keyboard from Logitech? I'm quite sure there is nothing the G15 keyboard will let you do that ordinary /binds and /macros couldn't accomplish with a standard keyboard. The G15 simply gives you more keys to work with.|
Originally Posted by Radubadu
Anytime I see the word "sequence" in regards to G15 use I get leery so like I said I wouldn't use it for that purpose but that's just my opinion and I'm probably overly paranoid about such things.
|
People have been able to make elaborate multi-function /binds for years now. If there was anything "illegal" spelled out in the guides like Kheldarn referenced they would have been deleted from the forum years ago. *shrugs*
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
I'm sure you're right and I'm overthinking it... I'm more thinking about a scenario like the one Rajani describes in his post. To answer your question (that I'm sure you meant to be rhetorical) an MMO won't prohibit you from using a G15 or similar product but most do have rules about using certain functionalities of it, again like the one Rajani describes.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
In this case I think you are being a bit overly-paranoid. How could a MMO prohibit you from using a commerically available keyboard from Logitech? I'm quite sure there is nothing the G15 keyboard will let you do that ordinary /binds and /macros couldn't accomplish with a standard keyboard. The G15 simply gives you more keys to work with.
People have been able to make elaborate multi-function /binds for years now. If there was anything "illegal" spelled out in the guides like Kheldarn referenced they would have been deleted from the forum years ago. *shrugs* |
Also as far as the guides posted none of them use any functions that would fully automate gameplay but I'm sure like in every other MMO some have used it for that purpose and have likely/hopefully been banned for it.
Global @radubadu
Usually playing one of the following toons blueside on Virtue:
Cadler 50 WP/SS tanker
Radubadu 46 Fire/Fire blaster
Hell Runner 35 Fire/Fire brute
Quote:
Those binds are limited to one power at a time plus one toggle.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
In this case I think you are being a bit overly-paranoid. How could a MMO prohibit you from using a commerically available keyboard from Logitech? I'm quite sure there is nothing the G15 keyboard will let you do that ordinary /binds and /macros couldn't accomplish with a standard keyboard. The G15 simply gives you more keys to work with.
People have been able to make elaborate multi-function /binds for years now. If there was anything "illegal" spelled out in the guides like Kheldarn referenced they would have been deleted from the forum years ago. *shrugs* |
External macros allow for an attack chain which can not be accomplished with in-game binds. Such macros are forbidden by the EULA. There's no arguing that fact.
What's arguable is if such activities are detectable, if they're trying to detect it, and if they're 'prosecuting' such violations.
It seems very unlikely that they'd do anything about someone using such keyboards for elaborate role-playing scripts.
However, all it takes is for word to get out that a particular farm can level you up to 50 in a few hours, or that you can always win an arena tournament through the use of these types of macro-ing keyboards, and then the hammer will come down. Mark my words.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Quote:
While you can set a macro as a toggle (auto-repeating until you hit it again) I'm not sure you can fully automate gameplay via the GKeys, seems like it would require scripting it doesn't support.|
Originally Posted by Radubadu
again like the one Rajani describes.
|
Their main issue is bot programs - such as Glider for WoW. Set it, forget it, and go to sleep while leveling/grinding/etc.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
*shakes head at the idiotic tag that actually sounds -very- wrong where he lives*
Quote:
I'm not sure I can see that happening, from where I'm standing... or sitting. I mean, I can see the potential abuses possible with the thing, but not in that extreme.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
However, all it takes is for word to get out that a particular farm can level you up to 50 in a few hours, or that you can always win an arena tournament through the use of these types of macro-ing keyboards, and then the hammer will come down. Mark my words.
|
Like I said, though, all I'm really intending on doing is mapping a few simple /team shouts, like "$target sighted!" or "Gather for Auras!", stuff like that; putting a sequence of emotes to one key and/or mapping something like Build Up to a delayed costume change to time it right.
If any of those are likely to get me the order of the boot from the game, then I'll just leave it and stick to /binding stuff to my NUMPAD keys and timing stuff manually.
I just found that the G keys were in a more comfortable place to reach, but weren't getting any love. :\
Sam: "My mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas."
Max: "Me too."
Stuff
Quote:
It won't. You can't perpetually bot with a G15 anyway, you have to push the button when the macro is done to start the macro again. Also, you cannot trigger a G key from a G key, so you can't go from one macro to the next to another to another, back to the first, and start all over again.|
Originally Posted by Crazy_Dragon
If any of those are likely to get me the order of the boot from the game, then I'll just leave it and stick to /binding stuff to my NUMPAD keys and timing stuff manually.
|
I have several G key binds. Some of them even include timing attacks (mostly Dual Blade combos). Most of them are as you wish to use them, timed costume changes, quick chat blurbs, etc.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
Quote:
This is not really true. Entire attack chains can be done. Easily in fact. That guide of mine linked to above? While only "typing" the ignore_spammer command with the spammer's name isn't a gaming advantage ( it is a peace of mind advantage ), the same principals apply to making attack chains.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Those binds are limited to one power at a time plus one toggle.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
It won't. You can't perpetually bot with a G15 anyway, you have to push the button when the macro is done to start the macro again. Also, you cannot trigger a G key from a G key, so you can't go from one macro to the next to another to another, back to the first, and start all over again.
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
The G-15 (and G-11) Keyboards 'Macro Keys' are absolutely no different than any keys on a Standard keyboard. You can program any key to be a 'G' key; Logitech just added some and separated them for ease of use.
As far as Macros being against 'Da Rulez'; CoX allows you to put Macros right in your Power Bars. It's only Botting that is against 'Da Rulez', and Logitech only makes it easier for a person too slow or lazy to use Windows' built in abilities to do it. No more; no less. Disallow the G-15 and they would have to do the same with Windows. Pretty hard to play the game without an OS.
Ninus Lvl 50 Bots/Dark/SM Mastermind Badges: 1384 @Ninus on Global
Put an Ebil MasterMind in the Obal Office: It wont be the first time
Campaigning for Global Global Ignore Champion since 2009!
Quote:
I was not trying to make the case that "illegal things are not illegal". I was just making the point that keyboards like the G15 will not allow such illegal things to be accomplished in the first place. The /bind system in this game already prevents EULA breaking activities. A keyboard like the G15 will not allow you to do anything "sneakier" than a standard keyboard because all a G15 gives you is more keys to attach binds to.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Those binds are limited to one power at a time plus one toggle.
External macros allow for an attack chain which can not be accomplished with in-game binds. Such macros are forbidden by the EULA. There's no arguing that fact. What's arguable is if such activities are detectable, if they're trying to detect it, and if they're 'prosecuting' such violations. It seems very unlikely that they'd do anything about someone using such keyboards for elaborate role-playing scripts. However, all it takes is for word to get out that a particular farm can level you up to 50 in a few hours, or that you can always win an arena tournament through the use of these types of macro-ing keyboards, and then the hammer will come down. Mark my words. |
Botting is illegal and it can be accomplished with either a standard keyboard or one like the G15. Therefore there is no legitimate reason to suggest that using a specific piece of hardware like the G15 should be restricted or "illegal" for a MMO just on principle.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
Provided an external macro program (out of game) that allows timing, this is true.|
Originally Posted by Ninus
The G-15 (and G-11) Keyboards 'Macro Keys' are absolutely no different than any keys on a Standard keyboard. You can program any key to be a 'G' key; Logitech just added some and separated them for ease of use.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ninus
As far as Macros being against 'Da Rulez'; CoX allows you to put Macros right in your Power Bars.
|
With a CoH macro I would need to press and release a key 2 times to activate 4 toggles (pulling a value out of the air). With those presses I could activate one attack power and set one power to auto state.
With the Logitech software, if I chose to risk my account (and I'm not willing to), I could activate 6 toggles, set one power to auto, and fire off a dozen powers in a specific order. All that with one keypress. Or I could set it so that every X seconds a power would activate without any interaction from me other than 1 keypress.
Or even worse, I could combine the CoH and Logitech methods with some batch files for some really spectacular results.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ninus
It's only Botting that is against 'Da Rulez', and Logitech only makes it easier for a person too slow or lazy to use Windows' built in abilities to do it.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ninus
No more; no less. Disallow the G-15 and they would have to do the same with Windows. Pretty hard to play the game without an OS.
|
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
The G15 (and G11, G13, G19 and G110) all support LUA scripting which can be used to violate the EULA. However, most of the macro use, like recording a non reporting attack sequence does not seem any worse than a fancy bind, that swaps out bind profiles. And binds like hover/fly set|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
While you can set a macro as a toggle (auto-repeating until you hit it again) I'm not sure you can fully automate gameplay via the GKeys, seems like it would require scripting it doesn't support.
Their main issue is bot programs - such as Glider for WoW. Set it, forget it, and go to sleep while leveling/grinding/etc. |
One restriction that the G15 is that it is NOT multi-threaded, so you can't have multiple macros going at once. and you cannot get external inputs, like links to network controllers and such.
I have used a G15 for work and play for years. I like the fact that I can quickly program "/broadcast WL in Copper District" quickly so repeating it only takes one key. I really have not set down and used it for COH beyond standard keyoard features. I have not master the game that well, then game with its slows and hastes really makes any timing based macros pretty much worthless.
By this logic, the Nostromo N52 also violates the EULA. I've used the N52 and G15 off and on for years, specificalyl because I can map keys to where they're most useful for me. I doubt anyone in power is going to care that you've simplified your life with a little technology...
The only scenario that could get you in any kind of trouble with this sort of thing is using external tool for unattended play. If you find a way to farm in your sleep, expect a ban when you wake up.
Quote:
One thing I really miss in other MMORPG that Coh Has, it that MOBs never (very rarely) spawn in view. So many of the simple key sequence combo repeated will not work in CoH.|
Originally Posted by SkeetSkeet
The only scenario that could get you in any kind of trouble with this sort of thing is using external tool for unattended play. If you find a way to farm in your sleep, expect a ban when you wake up.
|
The odd thing is I cannot even get my G15 to work with CoH outside its normal keyboard functions.
Quote:
Let's clarify that no keyboard inherently violates the EULA. You may choose to use it in a manner that violates the EULA. If you use it to set up a set of automated macros to make your mastermind pets dance and sing, no one cares. If you use it to automate play (like chaining multiple attacks), then you are in clear violation of the EULA.
|
Originally Posted by Spear0
By this logic, the Nostromo N52 also violates the EULA.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
This, I believe, is the fully correct answer to the entire thread.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Let's clarify that no keyboard inherently violates the EULA. You may choose to use it in a manner that violates the EULA. If you use it to set up a set of automated macros to make your mastermind pets dance and sing, no one cares. If you use it to automate play (like chaining multiple attacks), then you are in clear violation of the EULA.
|
Set it to make macros easier to reach or other uses that don't give you a competitive advantage and you are fine.
The moment that you try to fully automate play, be prepared to lose your account.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Quote:
I have a couple of questions:|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
This, I believe, is the fully correct answer to the entire thread.
Set it to make macros easier to reach or other uses that don't give you a competitive advantage and you are fine. The moment that you try to fully automate play, be prepared to lose your account. |
1. Has anyone here know of someoen that was banned because of using a G series keyboard (and if so, what were they actually doing that got the m banned?)
2. What abotu people that suffer from carpel tunnel and need to macros to allow them to play the game at all? I actually know of someone that had to stop playign because he devoped carpel tunnel from swinging a hammer all day.
I've never heard of such.
Now, two things about the fact I've never heard of someone being banned for using a G-Board.
First is, they don't talk about "Capt. Dingus was banned for X". They refuse to even mention numbers of banned people/whatever. Closest they get is they might reference a big event of wrongness/expoliting and mention that people were banned in passing.
On the flip side - 1 - the devs and community reps have never mentioned anything about a "crackdown" on extra keys (via a G-Board or Nostromo) and if they were banning due to this they would of mentioned it because the users of such devices are a not insignificant minority, I would think. Also, I have never seen someone raging on these forums or snidely mocking the devs/reps on another (banned) person's behalf.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Quote:
I use mine for those things, and before I got it I routinely used the numbered key pad for binds. |
Originally Posted by Crazy_Dragon
Like I said, though, all I'm really intending on doing is mapping a few simple /team shouts, like "$target sighted!" or "Gather for Auras!", stuff like that; putting a sequence of emotes to one key and/or mapping something like Build Up to a delayed costume change to time it right.
|
I've never really attempted to bind attack chains onto macro keys on my g11, for one simple reason: each character's attack chains are different and have different timings and are bound to different keys. There's no key press and timing sequence that's going to work right for everyone.
I have a number of macros to turn toggles on when I log into a character, but that isn't really automating the earning of any game reward.
<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
Okay, so I'm sat here typing this, realising that I've had my Logitech G15 for just about more than half a year now... and I've never actually used the G keys on it. I've made minor use of the display, but that's about it, and even then that was mostly while using Winamp.
Before I actually do anything with it though, I'm just wondering how much - if at all - it's within the game's terms of use? Of course, I have no intention of mapping the whole Sweep combo to a single key or anything like that. For the most part, just callouts and orders across /team and whatnot. I know, I know, I can use /bind and /macro ingame, but I have a tendency to be epically disorganised with those.
Sam: "My mind is a swirling miasma of scintillating thoughts and turgid ideas."
Max: "Me too."
Stuff