Nunchucks in the Martial Arts booster pack, or Martial Art Scrappers
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2009-12-20 02:09 in Suggestions and Ideas
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In order to avoid redraw issues in a set that has zero redraw, they could not be alternate animations for Martial Arts, they would need to be their own set.|
Originally Posted by marc100
thats would be so awesome. I'd be willing to pay extra to get nunchucks in the Martial Arts booster pack.
Or as an ability in the Martial Arts scrapper set. I started playing a MA scrapper and found it boring. Adding nunchuccks would be fun. If someone asks: "Where would you fit nunchucks in the Martial Arts set" Well, how about power choices? Like at level 8 I could have a choice between Crane Kick, or Nunchucks. I guess power choices is a suggestion on itself, but it would be fun to have choices in a set, so yo ucould add new powers without having to add new primaries or secondaries. I bet if you had Nunchucks in the game everyone would love it. I think some people want to see some new powers anyways. Sometimes the old ones get a little stale. |
While I would love to see nunchaku in the game, as a martial artist, I recognize that animating them, even semi-realistically, would be a nightmare.
They have yet to add anything to a Booster Pack after it has been released, with the exception of adding a tintable front panel option to the Science Jacket (Jay began work on this before the Pack's release, but it did not make it into a build until afterward). I, and many others, happen to think that the new costumes and Ninja Run are well worth the $10 for the Martial Arts booster. The only way I see them adding something to a Booster Pack post release is if the sales on it tank. Sales on the Martial Arts Booster did anything but tank.
BTW: We already have alternate animations for Martial Arts. All you need to do is go to a tailor, click the "Powers" tab, and then pick you alternate animations for each offensive technique. This goes for Super Strength, as well.
So: Nunchaku? Probably not anytime soon. Alternate animations for Martial Arts because you get bored with the default ones? Wish granted.
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I dont see them being that different from swinging a Mace, or dual blades.|
Originally Posted by Lightfoot
While I would love to see nunchaku in the game, as a martial artist, I recognize that animating them, even semi-realistically, would be a nightmare.
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I like COH a lot, I used to love it but I am starting to get a little bored with it and need to see some new things in order to stay enthused about the game.
Global: @Fire Beam
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Not true at all. Several sets have "weapons" that animate for single powers in the set: Stone, Ice and Fire melee.|
Originally Posted by Lightfoot
In order to avoid redraw issues in a set that has zero redraw, they could not be alternate animations for Martial Arts, they would need to be their own set.
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Now, they wouldn't be able to work as customizable weapons like BS or Katana, but they already allow customization of the ice and fire melee swords, so there's no reason at all that they couldn't allow a nunchuck animation set as an alternate for the MA powers.
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BABs explains it's not that simple. You're also running against a bigger problem that is so far completely unprecedented - changing a power from a weapon-based one to a non-weapon one. And even within the same powerset, like Spines, picking different customized options causes in-set redraw.
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Originally Posted by BadJuJu
Not true at all. Several sets have "weapons" that animate for single powers in the set: Stone, Ice and Fire melee.
Now, they wouldn't be able to work as customizable weapons like BS or Katana, but they already allow customization of the ice and fire melee swords, so there's no reason at all that they couldn't allow a nunchuck animation set as an alternate for the MA powers. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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LOLNunchucks
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They're not the same, unless you want the chain connecting both nunchucks to stay static. The Mace and Dual Blades are static when swung, the Nunchucks with need a flow, which is rather hard to code and animate.
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Originally Posted by marc100
I dont see them being that different from swinging a Mace, or dual blades.
I like COH a lot, I used to love it but I am starting to get a little bored with it and need to see some new things in order to stay enthused about the game. |
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Bab's post doesn't address what I'm talking about at all. It's not weapon based, it's just a visual effect. No draw, etc. Just like fire swords, ice swords, etc.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
BABs explains it's not that simple. You're also running against a bigger problem that is so far completely unprecedented - changing a power from a weapon-based one to a non-weapon one. And even within the same powerset, like Spines, picking different customized options causes in-set redraw.
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You're asking for a persistent weapon that sticks around after you use it and is usable between the different "nunchack" powers. That's a weapon. It's also an unprecedented customization ability, which may or may not actually be possible.
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Originally Posted by BadJuJu
Bab's post doesn't address what I'm talking about at all. It's not weapon based, it's just a visual effect. No draw, etc. Just like fire swords, ice swords, etc.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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A powerset involving Nunchucks would definitely have to be a Melee Primary/Secondary powerset. It would be pointless to add a weapon to Martial Arts because Martial Arts does not involve any weapons, and it's not appropiate to add it to the Martial arts booster because Ninja Run is that pack's special power and once more Martial Arts does not use any weapons!
Nunchucks would be a bit tedious to animate in a fixed pattern (free-flowing isn't necessary if a static animation/loop looks convincing) but once it's right it would be a nice addition to weaponised powersets. I could see it having Smashing-type stuns and quick recharge times.
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@Oneirohero
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No, that's not what I'm asking for. Actually I'm not asking for anything since I'm not the OP, or did you not notice that?. All I did was mention that it should be possible to add it as an animation, not as an actual weapon.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You're asking for a persistent weapon that sticks around after you use it and is usable between the different "nunchack" powers. That's a weapon. It's also an unprecedented customization ability, which may or may not actually be possible.
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I'll grant that it would be possible.|
Originally Posted by BadJuJu
No, that's not what I'm asking for. Actually I'm not asking for anything since I'm not the OP, or did you not notice that?. All I did was mention that it should be possible to add it as an animation, not as an actual weapon.
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It would also look terrible.
What the OP is asking for is that selected animations be replaced by an animation with a nunchaku that comes from out of nowhere, and returns to nowhere until that power recharges.
And then the OP picked the absolute least appropriate power to use as his example. The only nunchaku technique that could conceivably do what Crane Kick does is a technique that has none of the visual flair that made the nunchaku famous. (The technique is basically holding the two sticks together, one hand over the other, and pushing them into the midsection of the target. The technique is meant to strike the solar plexus and knock the wind out of the target. It would be extremely difficult to put enough force behind it to significantly knock the target back.) This would actually be the easiest nunchaku animation to do, but it would also look the worst (I will note that I have never seen this technique used in a movie, and I have seen a lot of martial arts movies). If a budoka wielding nunchaku wants to knock his target back, a la Crane Kick, he will execute a kick.
What really makes the nunchaku visually appealing and a threatening weapon is the flow of its use. A person skilled with the nunchaku can make the attack seem to come from any angle with minimal telegraphing of the move. From the standard over the shoulder hold, I can attack from seven different angles, same with the behind the back position. I would hate to see nunchaku mishmashed into Martial Arts with a appearing and disappearing weapon.
Yes, the OP's idea would be possible. It would also look awful.
/unsigned
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In the OP's defense, it wouldn't necessarily disappear while the power recharges, it would disappear when you clicked another power. It'd only 'look' like it was appearing from nowhere and disappear in thin air if you choose the animations like that and used them in that order.|
Originally Posted by Lightfoot
I'll grant that it would be possible.
It would also look terrible. What the OP is asking for is that selected animations be replaced by an animation with a nunchaku that comes from out of nowhere, and returns to nowhere until that power recharges. |
You wouldn't be able to tell us if it would look terrible or not, not with the kind of animation team we've got now. Look at ninja run, look at the upcoming dual pistol animations and tell me with perfect foresight how it would look.
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And then the OP picked the absolute least appropriate power to use as his example. The only nunchaku technique that could conceivably do what Crane Kick does is a technique that has none of the visual flair that made the nunchaku famous. (The technique is basically holding the two sticks together, one hand over the other, and pushing them into the midsection of the target. The technique is meant to strike the solar plexus and knock the wind out of the target. It would be extremely difficult to put enough force behind it to significantly knock the target back.) This would actually be the easiest nunchaku animation to do, but it would also look the worst (I will note that I have never seen this technique used in a movie, and I have seen a lot of martial arts movies). If a budoka wielding nunchaku wants to knock his target back, a la Crane Kick, he will execute a kick. What really makes the nunchaku visually appealing and a threatening weapon is the flow of its use. A person skilled with the nunchaku can make the attack seem to come from any angle with minimal telegraphing of the move. From the standard over the shoulder hold, I can attack from seven different angles, same with the behind the back position. I would hate to see nunchaku mishmashed into Martial Arts with a appearing and disappearing weapon. Yes, the OP's idea would be possible. It would also look awful. /unsigned |
Yes, the nunchaku's appeal is how it flows but then Martial Arts currently flows quite nicely, animation time-wise. So if the animations are done right, I don't see why alternate nunchaku animations couldn't flow just as nicely.
My opinion is, I don't really care for the appeal of nunchaku use. It's the only weapon I probably don't want to see in the game. But others may want to see it as much as I want to see a Scythe set.
As a set, I'm against nunchaku and feel it probably have similar effects to what MA would have now. Rather than making a superfluously extended set like Katana and Broadsword, just make it 1 set with a theme choice you can change in the power customization menu. But rather than choosing it 'power by power', you'd have to have the entire set be 'nunchaku' if you wanted to use it. [EDIT] Currently this hasn't been done but I don't see it as impossible either and you'd be able to use punches and kicks and nunchaku all on one character, you'd just need to change costumes.[/EDIT]
I may not be behind nunchaku itself, I am behind doing what I said above to alot of other sets. Alot of people suggest new sets that probably don't have much standing on their own as a set (think the 'Street Fighting' set and here, Nunchaku) and for those ideas, they should be 'integrated' into existing sets as animations rather than whole new sets.
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I will be optimistic here and say this is probably the way things will be done in the future, I can see them creating 'themed' power customisation but you have to select the whole theme (keep in mind we can now change animations as well as colours so this allows for a big reworking without having to change any big numbers...however it still requires one hell of a task..as the only thing you don't have to do over a new powerset is all the balance testing for new abilities).| As a set, I'm against nunchaku and feel it probably have similar effects to what MA would have now. Rather than making a superfluously extended set like Katana and Broadsword, just make it 1 set with a theme choice you can change in the power customization menu. But rather than choosing it 'power by power', you'd have to have the entire set be 'nunchaku' if you wanted to use it. |
Coral for Stone Melee (makes use of the Coral hammer, Coral fists have stuff jutting out of them etc.)
Spear for Broadsword.
Halbred for Axe.
Staff for Mace.
And so on...
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Not strictly true by definition. Martial Arts are the Arts of War. Colloquially "Martial Arts' are generally considered to be the non-weapon-based fighting arts (martial arts again) but Weapon-Based Arts are indeed Martial Arts by definition, and in matter of fact Commanding Fighting Units, Intelligence gathering, and Piloting Fighting Vehicles are all Martial Arts (ref Sun Tzu for these). |
Originally Posted by Oneirohero
and once more Martial Arts does not use any weapons!
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You can maintain your prejudice to make Martial Arts strictly describing the Non-Weapons Systems, but it is not strictly accurate except by twisting the definition to suit your PoV.
For all that, Nunchaku? Meh. Neither for or against the idea myself, but I would rather have new content of other sorts to particular weapons especially in this game, but that is my prejudice.
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I'd really like a staff/Polearm set. maybe Staff for scrappers/Brutes and Spear for Tankers/Stalkers.
As for Nunchaku for MA... eh.
MA pretty much looked to me to be the "I hit things just with my hands, no fancy powers or weapons" set. Adding in the punches in i16 pretty much solidfied that for me, as it's purpose as such was fulfilled by allowing it to mix between punches and kicks.
What we're really looking at when discussing this is customizing animations and entire weapon sets for weapon-based powers.
Like, okay, say we allow players to select between regular bows and crossbows,cool. How would that work? Would you select while creating your costume? because you'd have to select which type of bow if using regular bow animations, and which type of crossbow if selecting that one, If the selection was made during power customization, would it make me go back to costume to select which weapon?
The way I could see it happening is during power selection, If you picked archery or trick arrow, the Archery/TA tab would expand down into crossbow or regular bow, then you'd select which one you want, which would dictate which bow options you'd have when it came to picking weapons in costume creation.
I'd like to know if that's possible before going any further (because if so, staff would be the obvious choice for nunchaku)
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Instead of nunchuks (or in addition to them), how about giving us swordchuks please? 
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It would look amazing and be fun to play! |
Originally Posted by Lightfoot
Yes, the OP's idea would be possible. It would also look awful.
/unsigned |
Almost every man at one point or another has had a daydream of being Bruce Lee with nunchucks (or nunchaku...whatever) flying around his head, sending his enemies flying and yelling WA TOAHHH!
Personally I think its perfect with Martial Arts, or as a bonus extra power.
As for the animations, I dont see much of a difference of the body position of dual blades. And if we can have capes flowing in the wind and change directions depending on how youre moving, then I would think nunchucks would be a breeze compared to capes.
Global: @Fire Beam
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Here's the thing - in order for you to keep the weapon out and, crucially, have it persist between attacks with the same weapon, is to resort to activation sequences. We have no reason to believe and no precedent to suggest that such a thing is currently possible. We have no way to tell if a non-weapon power can be customised into a weapon power. And that's what's being asked here. If you don't make it a persistent weapon power, then each power will always draw the weapon at the start, even if you already had the weapon out.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
In the OP's defense, it wouldn't necessarily disappear while the power recharges, it would disappear when you clicked another power. It'd only 'look' like it was appearing from nowhere and disappear in thin air if you choose the animations like that and used them in that order.
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In fact, and I may be recalling right, but in the past, BABs has explained that the way the game known not to redraw a weapon already drawn is if the next power has the exact same activation sequence as the previous one. The reason I linked to his post on the matter was to say that this system which ensures that works is also the system which MANDATES draw occur between activation sequences, in such a way that BABs has so far been unable to prevent it from doing so with the time he has to devote to it. It's clearly not a simple hack-n-slash fix.
Basically, in order for the set to not redraw, powers would all have to have the same activation sequence, very likely unique to the weapon. We have no evidence that activation sequences can be changed, and if they aren't changed, then redraw will occur. Since the game cannot already do that, it's not a safe bet to believe that it probably can.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, that's where I think we can get around some of the issues of weapon sets and sort of 'fool ourselves' with clever use of animation. Having played my Stone/Shield brute and using the hammers, although they technically use different weapons that are 'drawn' between each attack's use, it doesn't *look* like it is. Using Stone Mallet and Heavy Mallet after just looks like you swing the mallet down and then swing it up when you're in fact 'drawing' the mallet and swinging it down > then 'undrawing' it or 'drawing' a new mallet over it > then swinging it up.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's the thing - in order for you to keep the weapon out and, crucially, have it persist between attacks with the same weapon, is to resort to activation sequences. We have no reason to believe and no precedent to suggest that such a thing is currently possible. We have no way to tell if a non-weapon power can be customised into a weapon power. And that's what's being asked here. If you don't make it a persistent weapon power, then each power will always draw the weapon at the start, even if you already had the weapon out.
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Again, if you use clever animation use, it could look like you're not drawing the nunchaku at all as you animate each attack.
But if that's not possible, and we have to make the set into a weapon set, I don't see that as impossible either. If you can switch animations of powers within a set, I shouldn't be out of their power to just substitute all the powers of a set with a cosmetic alternate that just happens to be a weapon set.
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In fact, and I may be recalling right, but in the past, BABs has explained that the way the game known not to redraw a weapon already drawn is if the next power has the exact same activation sequence as the previous one. The reason I linked to his post on the matter was to say that this system which ensures that works is also the system which MANDATES draw occur between activation sequences, in such a way that BABs has so far been unable to prevent it from doing so with the time he has to devote to it. It's clearly not a simple hack-n-slash fix. Basically, in order for the set to not redraw, powers would all have to have the same activation sequence, very likely unique to the weapon. We have no evidence that activation sequences can be changed, and if they aren't changed, then redraw will occur. Since the game cannot already do that, it's not a safe bet to believe that it probably can. |
My guess is, if there is no logical way to have the set call on an alternate set of animations that just happen to draw (and therefore cause redraw like other weapon sets), then there goes the 2nd option I was talking about. Then that leaves the question of how to cleverly get 'around' redraw by use of Fire/Stone melee methods.
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I believe Oneirohero was referring to "Martial Arts", the powerset, not martial arts the concept. In which case, Martial Arts does not use weapons.|
Originally Posted by Ninus
You can maintain your prejudice to make Martial Arts strictly describing the Non-Weapons Systems, but it is not strictly accurate except by twisting the definition to suit your PoV.
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More on-topic, I think I'd prefer to see a Seven-Section Staff than nunchaku. If the animations could be properly varied, it'd even be nice to see weapon customization for it in the form of samjitbin (three sections; similar to nunchaku with a third rod added, though the size of the entire weapon would be more akin to a staff than to a fighting stick), qijiebian (titular seven sections), and jiujiebian (nine sections).
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Possibly, but then why make a colorized comment about it? It is what it is, and I have heard others in other threads specifically state that Martial Arts can only be hand-to-hand combat; which is of course false. |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I believe Oneirohero was referring to "Martial Arts", the powerset, not martial arts the concept. In which case, Martial Arts does not use weapons.
More on-topic, I think I'd prefer to see a Seven-Section Staff than nunchaku. If the animations could be properly varied, it'd even be nice to see weapon customization for it in the form of samjitbin (three sections; similar to nunchaku with a third rod added, though the size of the entire weapon would be more akin to a staff than to a fighting stick), qijiebian (titular seven sections), and jiujiebian (nine sections). |
If that is what Oneierohero meant; then I would have to agree with him that the MA powerset does not include weapons.
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thats would be so awesome. I'd be willing to pay extra to get nunchucks in the Martial Arts booster pack.
Or as an ability in the Martial Arts scrapper set.
I started playing a MA scrapper and found it boring. Adding nunchuccks would be fun.
If someone asks: "Where would you fit nunchucks in the Martial Arts set"
Well, how about power choices?
Like at level 8 I could have a choice between Crane Kick, or Nunchucks. I guess power choices is a suggestion on itself, but it would be fun to have choices in a set, so yo ucould add new powers without having to add new primaries or secondaries.
I bet if you had Nunchucks in the game everyone would love it.
I think some people want to see some new powers anyways. Sometimes the old ones get a little stale.
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