Invulnerability has 50% resistance to defense debuffs (which is in the top three IIRC) and is a powerset with good layered mitigation, changing invincibility to +res would be a drastic and unwarranted nerf.
Thanks for the Reply
Yeah, Defense is better for layered mitigation. Defense is pretty much better in general, except against auto-hit attacks. So, if Invincibility was changed to +Resistance, it really would be a huge nerf to the set, and your Tanker's survivability.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
Yeah, huge nerf doesn't even cover it! Out of Tough, my Fire/Fire Tanker can't match my Invuln Tanker for Smash/Lethal resists (by a good 15% or so), and the wonderful addition of defense makes him even tougher. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Yeah, Defense is better for layered mitigation. Defense is pretty much better in general, except against auto-hit attacks. So, if Invincibility was changed to +Resistance, it really would be a huge nerf to the set, and your Tanker's survivability.
|
Defense is great, you miss the damage, plus all the debuffs. That's why I went for defense with my Fire/Fire tanker, as it adds so much to resists.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
I think you'll find that, even without soft-capping, current defense-based Invincibility adds so much durability to an Invulnerability Tanker that you're quite happy with it (especially once you've added Tough Hide).
Meanwhile, it would add nothing at all to the (all-important) smashing or lethal resistance of an Inv tanker who took the fighting pool, because he's already capped.
My experiences exemplaring down have led me to conclude that Inv is a very solid set even without IOs at all, much less soft-capped. And defense is a big part of that.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I'd see this as a nerf to be honest. It would also make the Defense from Tough Hide pretty much useless as there would be nothing else in the set to stack it with.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
I'd prefer to see a 11% resistance to F/C/E/N/T added to Invincibility rather than replace the defense. Each foe in range of Invincibility would also give -1% resistance to F/C/E/N/T.
Max end performance would not change, but when facing fewer foes, Invul would be a bit stronger against the non s/l/psi damage types. The extra resistance would be great against the +3 or +4 bosses you get on teams, and it would help against eb/avs prior to level 32 and unstoppable.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Invulnerability is second only to Stone in survivability as it is..... with tough you can cap s/l resist to 90%, and you can soft cap s/l defenses with weave and some IO's pretty easily.
Adding in more would be........ pretty unnecessary IMHO.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
|
Seriously, there is very little my INV cant handle and I am not even at the soft cap for defense.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
Terrible idea actually, it would probably cut your overall survivability by close to 50%. Yes, it would make that much difference.|
Originally Posted by TheOverseer
How about changing Invince from the Invuln set into a + to resist for 10 bad guys instead of defense..I know it can be soft capped but wouldn't resist be nicer in the end even during pvp/pve?
L50 wp tanker Muslemax L35 invuln tanker Omniaxe |
The strength of Invulnerability is it's layered protections... you have defense which reduces the number of attacks that actually hit you, you have resistance which reduces the damage of the small number of attacks that do hit and you have Dull Pain to heal from damage and to boost your hit points so you can take more damage.
Of those layers the first, defense, is the most important... if an attack doesn't hit then you take no damage. Reducing that defense falls under the heading of A Bad Thing.
Here's an example for you, the new Electric Armor set is pure resistance, it has fairly impressive amounts actually but no defense at all. I have a level 50 Elec/SS on Test from the issue 16 beta testing who's boosted his resistance as high as possible in a straight SO build. I compared the raw durability of that tank with a straight SO version of my Invuln/Stone tanker in multiple radio missions. The end result was that the Invuln, against every single enemy type I tested, was considerably more durable than the Electric.
I tested against Carnies, Council, COT and Crey on a difficulty setting of +2 mobs set for a 6 man team... typical fare for an average PuG. Carnies chewed the Elec up and faceplanted him in about 20 seconds; the Invuln was able to solo the group and (slowly) kill the entire spawn. Council was somewhat of a wash with both performing acceptably but unquestionably the Elec was having a harder time. COT really hurt the Elec... again the Invuln had no insurmountable problems. Crey was kind of the same thing, both were adequate but the Elec was straining while the Invuln was coasting.
Both tankers were slotted 100% with SO enhancements, there were no IO bonuses on either. No inspirations were used.
What was happening here was the strength of defense showing in the Invuln tanker... the Elec had impressive resistance but it completely lacked that additional layer of protection so much more damage was actually landing. That whittled away the Electric's hit points faster than it could recover.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
True.. layered defenses lead to increased survivability especially if one is using SO's or Generic IO's.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Thanks Guys for your reply 
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Invulnerability is second only to Stone in survivability as it is..... with tough you can cap s/l resist to 90%, and you can soft cap s/l defenses with weave and some IO's pretty easily.
Adding in more would be........ pretty unnecessary IMHO. |
Do you have numbers to support this claim? Just wondering, because my experience playing an Invul vs other Tanks leads me to see that invul is closer to the bottom of the list in terms of survivability than the top. But that just might be my perception.
Quote:
On straight SO enhancements with a good build Invuln is probably about in the middle of the primaries. Add IO sets to build up the defense and it really is second only to Stone in durability. The whole secret is the layers of protection that Invuln provides; it gives good amounts of defense out of the box coupled with capped S/L resistance and at least minimal resistance to all but Psionic and the huge heal and HP buff of Dull Pain.|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Do you have numbers to support this claim? Just wondering, because my experience playing an Invul vs other Tanks leads me to see that invul is closer to the bottom of the list in terms of survivability than the top. But that just might be my perception.
|
If you're running into durability issues on your Invuln tanker then there's probably something in your build that could be improved on.
Of the sets I've played (Shield & WP as Scrapper secondaries and extrapolating to tanker numbers) I'd rank them something like this with SO's:
Stone Armor (Granite)
Shield
Invuln
Ice
Willpower
Stone Armor (no Granite)
Fire
Adding a good IO build and you move Invuln up into the #2 slot behind Granite Armor with Shield occupying the #3 slot. Bear in mind that this is based on sets I've actually played to significant level; in the case of Shield & WP those were played as Scrapper/Brute sets.
Granite is really so good that there's no need to build survivability with IO sets, I tend to focus on reducing the movement & recharge penalties instead. Granite running on SO's alone is plenty to tank the STF unsupported. Invuln, once built up to the soft cap, is likewise capable of unsupported tanking of the toughest challenges in the game. On SO's it's capable, but it requires a fair amount of team support.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
It's your perception. Someone (I think it was Starsman) did exhaustive calculations and simulations to gauge the 'toughness' of each armor set. The only real shock for most people was the difference between 'stone with granite' and 'stone without granite'. One was at the top, which we all expected. The other was pretty much garbage.|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Do you have numbers to support this claim? Just wondering, because my experience playing an Invul vs other Tanks leads me to see that invul is closer to the bottom of the list in terms of survivability than the top. But that just might be my perception.
|
Anyway, I tried searching but can't find the post. It may have been on the old forums. As I recall, Stone was far and away number one. Invuln and Willpower were 2nd and 3rd but close to each other so their positions would easily shift depending on enemy type.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Do you have numbers to support this claim? Just wondering, because my experience playing an Invul vs other Tanks leads me to see that invul is closer to the bottom of the list in terms of survivability than the top. But that just might be my perception.
|
Here's some numbers. A proposed rebuild of my main scrank build.
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1427;708;1416;HEX;|
|78DAA593DB4E13511486F7D0D6D21305CA19293D08A5944E5 BC544C0C3856080D8A|
|452C295DA14D89609CDB44EA786DEF9005E79A157C6E730BE 85E7C3C3D4B5D7BF69|
|62BC74D2F9BF39ACBDFE7FF6EE2E5F6C878578794F18E1FBC D7AA7533BACDBE7D21|
|92E77DDBA6BB5ECF86EAF2D9D8EEB58E732914F94EB965D3D 71A82671204FBB177E|
|21441C436ADBF299B43BD2DCB35F749BB674EAC756D3727BF 3FA755936A534AB5D6|
|A57ABBA8EB41BEED9D89E7D26E9D2352F2F429556AB693E68 5A8D33378C6BCBB565|
|A713D137F4DCB21B41BEABB6A53C8DEDB4AD1373870C1BBD5 AB9DE71A5D39BA1585|
|93A3F07480C3A45DF2B5274911143716091E14D02D38405B1 1614FAE8FB44859012|
|571E01078CE12AB02B5479709FF125A03D447FC8C8114A220 884814F54E0410A8F0|
|729C248318214234811A4D9F4697B1FEC47613F0AFB71D88F C37E02F6DFA8BB5F77|
|F7A3FB04BA4FA1FB14BAFBA87B00752290E66005FADE90360 CD943EAD14C0B6833E|
|69E030EE36A87E1A74611341A8A1C19FC669F2DE277791A43 5410455B23FA8BC7C4|
|7F337E50D631C3E0A16371CE109FE00E8949C6300D8DE9DEB 1373C26F11678CD285|
|1E4491D79127394C41C25314749CC511A7394C61C19D4761A A3BCD3196E945E615C|
|CB02AB408EF19362CEEA14B388B98C98CB88799D52CCEBEF9 8C7222F0319C043860|
|B7A5116B028192C4A068B92D57F3CAA5BD44E8B70CAC2290B A71B41F535489ECA73|
|BA5513280045C65A89B14EE54BBA7C69036F36812D46FE367 0879122FB156DBF82E|
|479A0007CA599C8E982DC3A272A1419A59B8CEF5460A2C030 D7301478EF11A2A887|
|16D1ADF417AE7A07BB8D7E748887FF3CA978077B4B18FC24E B1D6CE9FF3A3E842FB|
|D02076ADB1F2AA9283952F258C913254F95D4951C2B3951D2 FF38181DBDA5026D28|
|D954B2A5E4952AF2ABAD15521256125132A224AA6454494CC 994923925EF94F4FF0|
|09EE8F6E7|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Note: The current build actually DOES have all those purples in it. But, if you feel better, alter it to be like my SJ-based build with commons (Acc/Dam-x3/EndRed).
My current SJ-based build is ridiculously tough and gives my granite-ized Stoners a run for the money (without Granite's severe penalties).
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Are you using Tough and Weave? Tough and Weave add a lot to most Tanker builds' survivability, but they give a particularly high payoff with Invuln, because slotted Tough can cap out the smashing and lethal resists of an Invuln Tanker. 90% s/l resistance and "better defense through Weave" make a huge difference.|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Do you have numbers to support this claim? Just wondering, because my experience playing an Invul vs other Tanks leads me to see that invul is closer to the bottom of the list in terms of survivability than the top. But that just might be my perception.
|
Frankly I am surprised to see CMA rank Shields above Inv in his list -- when I added the fighting pool to both sets, I felt like Inv is stronger, personally.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Quote:
Well, my last effort produced these numbers. Please dont ask me to explain everything behind them but in short, these weight how survivable the set is against damage types and then weights the rarity of different damage types. In specific situations, a set may be less survivable against certain enemy groups, but overall, against random foes throughout your career, these charts are rather accurate.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
It's your perception. Someone (I think it was Starsman) did exhaustive calculations and simulations to gauge the 'toughness' of each armor set. The only real shock for most people was the difference between 'stone with granite' and 'stone without granite'. One was at the top, which we all expected. The other was pretty much garbage.
Anyway, I tried searching but can't find the post. It may have been on the old forums. As I recall, Stone was far and away number one. Invuln and Willpower were 2nd and 3rd but close to each other so their positions would easily shift depending on enemy type. |
If google docs gave me the tools I'd allow for the player to pick an enemy to benchmark against, but thats just not possible with Google Docs.
Oh and there are 2 groups of numbers there. The most important one, generally speaking, is the second set at the bottom as it represents how much dps can you sustain (the higher the number the better, that's all that matters.) The first set is more specific to the act of tanking as it indicates how much damage you can mitigate with all healing and regeneration ignored. In other words: Alpha Absorption. The higher you are in that table, the better you should fare at tanking with support. Problem with that, though, is that if you have support you likely already got patched up to be much more survivable than this.
BTW, my main is an invuln. There are some groups that can slaughter me quickly, specially if there is pure psi damage, but the cases these are an issue are an extreme minority. I don't remember the last time Starsman died. I been actually tanking winter lords just for kicks, they can barely hurt Starsman Prime, then again, I have invested him into a few IOs. Nothing mayor but enough to take me out of the base survivability settings.
Edit: Starsman Prime has no fighting pool nor aid self, but takes the passives.
Oh and one more thing, right now I have it set at "one foe in melee range" but I can easily increase that on my side. Actually, I think 3 foes would make a more realistic case.
Edit:
Never mind that, it was set to 5 foes. Looking at it again yea, Invulnerability does end at the bottom of the pack as far as sustained dps goes, i blame it on Dull pain, though.
Obligatory question: Is that just the set itself, or the set plus things like Tough and Weave? I'm guessing the former.
Raw set with 3 resist/heal/recharge SOs where applicable. Exception is only Dark Regeneration that is assumed to be 3 end redux and 3 heals.
I was considering last night to add "casual minmaxing" tools: Combat Jumping, Tough, Weave, and a Steadfasgt +3 Def as these may yield a better representation of the sets potential as a tank. I think any tanker should invest in those tools by level 40. It's very possible to do so without sacrificing offense.
Here is a link to a version that includes tough/weave/combat jumping (1 slot) and a steadfast.
It's easy to see how the set that benefits the most from such optimization is Invuln, jumping from nearly the bottom to be the king (with 5 foes, remember, although also tested with 1 and Invuln does not goes down from it's position after taking these tools).
Quote:
With Shield I'm taking my experience with my BS/Shield scrapper and using that to figure the tanker's performance... from my numbers it looks like a Shield tanker using Weave & CJ should be a bit past 40% def. I did compare a level bumped Shield/Elec tank on Test with an old SO version of CMA and the two were close in durability against most foes... the Shield was better vs Carnies and Malta.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Are you using Tough and Weave? Tough and Weave add a lot to most Tanker builds' survivability, but they give a particularly high payoff with Invuln, because slotted Tough can cap out the smashing and lethal resists of an Invuln Tanker. 90% s/l resistance and "better defense through Weave" make a huge difference.
Frankly I am surprised to see CMA rank Shields above Inv in his list -- when I added the fighting pool to both sets, I felt like Inv is stronger, personally. |
We're debating fairly minimal differences though... on SO's both tankers are highly capable... I'd expect that once my Shield/Fire matures it'll be close, but Invuln may have a slight edge. So far the Shield tank has been moderately squishy until around 24, at 27 now he's starting to show promise. I'll know more once the Shield gets closer to 50 and the build matures.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
Okay, that's what I figured it would be. If that included extra outside mitigation, then I would've figured that something was up.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Raw set with 3 resist/heal/recharge SOs where applicable. Exception is only Dark Regeneration that is assumed to be 3 end redux and 3 heals.
|
I will say that your assumed slotting for Dark Regen is suspect. (I can't say from firsthand experience, but I've teamed/talked with a prolific DA player friend enough to get the basics.) First, the power needs to hit in order to heal you, yet you slotted absolutely no accuracy? Any form of tohit debuff / def buff from enemies will completely screw you. (Don't forget the streakbreaker uses your lowest tohit value, too. So you'd be allowing yourself a larger streak of misses to boot.) Not only that, but Dark Regen saturates really fast. With just 3 targets it's a full heal of your base hp. The only time slotting DR would be helpful is against a solo boss. I'd probably assume something more along the lines of 2 acc/2-3 end/1-2 rech/0-1 heal.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I was considering last night to add "casual minmaxing" tools: Combat Jumping, Tough, Weave, and a Steadfasgt +3 Def as these may yield a better representation of the sets potential as a tank. I think any tanker should invest in those tools by level 40. It's very possible to do so without sacrificing offense.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Here is a link to a version that includes tough/weave/combat jumping (1 slot) and a steadfast.
It's easy to see how the set that benefits the most from such optimization is Invuln, jumping from nearly the bottom to be the king (with 5 foes, remember, although also tested with 1 and Invuln does not goes down from it's position after taking these tools). |
(I do wish I knew more about what the chart represented, though. Right now, the numbers displayed are completely abstract. I can't even translate that into something meaningful like 'sustainable dps'.)
How about changing Invince from the Invuln set into a + to resist for 10 bad guys instead of defense..I know it can be soft capped but wouldn't resist be nicer in the end even during pvp/pve?
L50 wp tanker Muslemax
L35 invuln tanker Omniaxe