Leveling the playing field


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

The fastest and most effective ways for the Devs to cap market prices woudl be so easy to impliment that if they were unhappy with market prices as they stand (and that position could change at any time) they would have done it already. There are already three insanely effective ways to cap market prices in the game:

1. Stores - Sell the recipes for a "market cap price." They would always be avaliable at that price, meaning no one in their right mind would buy one from the markets for more than that.

2. Merits - Sell the recipes via merits. The supply would go up and it would give an alternate method of aquisition, meaning lower demand on the markets and higher supply, especially if the merit price was set low (think 200 merits or less). This is less effective than selling them outright in stores, but still effective. I know many people who haven't bought a "100 Million Inf IO" from the markets since merits were introduced except for purples.

3. Tickets. Same as merits, except they would have to remove the randomized selection tickets are currently locked into, but that's a fairly simple change. Again, if ticket prices were set insanely low (think 2,000 or less for purples), the ability to quickly acquire them without marketing woes would lower demand and boost supply.

With just those three in mind, it's easy to see that shou'd the Devs ever decide "the market is just out of control" they can quickly slam the door on it in a variety of insanely effective ways (and that's ignoring just bumping up drop rates by a few percent) using one or all of the methods. Because the Devs can conjure these high-demand/high-price items out of thin air at will, If they wanted to put regulation into the markets, they already have the tools to do so, since they have not, they don't view it as a problem or at least not a large enough problem to do anything with at the moment.


 

Posted

When Issue 9 came out and introduced the market, I had 8 million influence. Nowadays I have something like 10-12 billion in liquid assets and probably around 6-8 billion worth of IOs on my toons.

I can make influence very easily by buying some recipes and salvage and then selling the crafted IO for 2x-10x what I paid to make it.

There is no reason you can't do the same. Even an hour a week spent focused on using the market can earn you exponentially more than what you may be making now through regular play.


I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.

 

Posted

It's called a Free Market. Of course prices are high; it's easier than working for them.



 

Posted

They could fix alot of the huge pricing issues if Bids would cancel after 24 hours. I believe it use to be 48 hours at one time although I may be wrong. Bids should also cancel on unsubscribed / unpaid accounts.

Finally I'd like to see a new stat added to the auction window that displays how many accounts are bidding on said item. I want to know if that 1000+ bids is alot of accounts or someone low ball bidding / flipping with all of there auction slots. This would help me decide whether or not to list something for a higher price.


Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post
I believe it use to be 48 hours at one time although I may be wrong. Bids should also cancel on unsubscribed / unpaid accounts.
It used to be 60 days of not interacting with the market server. Now it's 60 days of being an inactive account.


http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post
They could fix alot of the huge pricing issues if Bids would cancel after 24 hours. I believe it use to be 48 hours at one time although I may be wrong. Bids should also cancel on unsubscribed / unpaid accounts.
I disagree. Putting a time limit on sales might help since it would force people to price their items low enough to guarantee a sale in the appropriate time frame. However canceling bids would hurt people who don't marketeer significantly more than people who do. People who are flipping tend to check and refresh their bids on a less than 24 hour basis anyway so it wouldn't impact them. On the other hand people who play infrequently and put in low bids to try and get bargains would lose out. The only downside for marketeers is that we'd have to store excess influence in stock or on alts rather than as bids for level 53 recipes.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill View Post
Depending on your definition of "marketeer" -
1. Do tutorial.
2. Defeat a hellion or skull. One or two should do.
3. Place beginning inspirations on market.
4. Use money from them to buy cheap SOs. 1-2 to start is fine.
5. Cycle that money into more SOs to buy.
6. Sell to appropriate store.

1m in single digit levels is boring, but easy. You can expand out into recipes, as well.
This is an easy way to get started as long as people are willing to sell their SOs. I know I list the Sos that I get because I feel it's only fair to help the new toons that are willing to do the work needed to get the inf they need. 25k at level 50 isn't much, but at level 5 it's a lot.


�Let there be truth, happiness, and waffles�
-Vagabond, Dark Lord & Avatar of Gnarr
The Justiciars

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I disagree. Putting a time limit on sales might help since it would force people to price their items low enough to guarantee a sale in the appropriate time frame. However canceling bids would hurt people who don't marketeer significantly more than people who do. People who are flipping tend to check and refresh their bids on a less than 24 hour basis anyway so it wouldn't impact them. On the other hand people who play infrequently and put in low bids to try and get bargains would lose out. The only downside for marketeers is that we'd have to store excess influence in stock or on alts rather than as bids for level 53 recipes.
I don't think a bunch of people bidding 1 inf should control / drive up the prices of items. Since you can easily do this and while it looks like 300 people may be bidding on a item. 150 of those bids could just be 1 inf while the others are legit bids that are actually really bidding on a item. Its not flipping that bothers me so much, its the 1 inf bidders. It kinda makes you wonder why items such as luck charms have nearly always had 8000 - 10000 bids on them.


Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noyjitat View Post
I don't think a bunch of people bidding 1 inf should control / drive up the prices of items. Since you can easily do this and while it looks like 300 people may be bidding on a item. 150 of those bids could just be 1 inf while the others are legit bids that are actually really bidding on a item. Its not flipping that bothers me so much, its the 1 inf bidders. It kinda makes you wonder why items such as luck charms have nearly always had 8000 - 10000 bids on them.
I really don't think that standing low ball bids drive up the prices on items. It's simple supply and demand. If the standing bids were at or above the natural market price of the item then the market would clear over time and the number of bids would decrease. We actually got a good example of this in reverse during the AE craze. There are plenty of tier 3 common salvage items that have a standard price less than 250 and several thousand in standing stock. When the AE hit and the rate of generation for new salvage went down this stock got bought up at steadily increasing prices until it settled into a new equilibrium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_clearing

There might be a psychological implication where a high number of bids encourages people to overpay but that's the fault of the buyers not people hoping for a bargain. Removing bids frequently might bring prices down a little bit but I don't think it's going to help the people that you want it to. The majority of those excess bids are almost certainly flippers who will just keep relisting anyway.


 

Posted

Didn't we just get done with this topic?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
Didn't we just get done with this topic?
Yes, but it's one of those topics that comes up at least once a month. We reiterate the same arguments on both sides of the fence. Occasionally it degenerates into a huge flame war with pointless name calling until mod8 locks the thread.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NarfMann View Post
I realize that luxury cars are going to be expensive. I have a problem with just HOW expensive they get. This makes it practically impossible for poor people to get a hold of them. I am suggesting a $10,000 cap on pricing for all luxury cars in America. I believe this is a fair cap as it still garners people large sums and still leaves it reasonably available for poor people. I know the businessmen and thrifty people are going to complain about this but we need a fairer pricing system that allows luxury cars to be purchased (when available) by poor people.

You win one internetz.

However, you are not allowed to sell that internetz for more than $1,000,000.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Yes, but it's one of those topics that comes up at least once a month. We reiterate the same arguments on both sides of the fence. Occasionally it degenerates into a huge flame war with pointless name calling until mod8 locks the thread.
And those let me farm my post count.

Like now.

Honestly, it amazes me that anyone thinks there's something wrong with the market.

Except for hippies, of course.


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[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
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Posted

I don't think farming is the way to riches, I PL'd a bit this morning and my 50 made prob 10-15 million. During that same time 3 of my flips sold, netting me over 100 million on the same toon.

I could farm 24/7 and still make an order of magnitude less than what a bit of marketeering would net.

Play the market, buy what you want for your build, price caps aren't the solution.


Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
Yes, but it's one of those topics that comes up at least once a month. We reiterate the same arguments on both sides of the fence. Occasionally it degenerates into a huge flame war with pointless name calling until mod8 locks the thread.
But I could have sworn it was just this week we finished it up...where is that other thread...

--

Here Just Sunday!

DAMN YOU BLACKWELL!


 

Posted

Ok, At this point i'm sorry I said ANYTHING! I would make a full retraction if possible. I still stand that the drops are far too lacking on several key enhancements that I am looking for and the 40 - 50 mil pricetags are completely outrageous. But you people and your inane replys that border on harassment really take the cake.

- - - END OF LINE - - -


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBlackwell View Post
Ok, At this point i'm sorry I said ANYTHING! I would make a full retraction if possible. I still stand that the drops are far too lacking on several key enhancements that I am looking for and the 40 - 50 mil pricetags are completely outrageous. But you people and your inane replys that border on harassment really take the cake.

- - - END OF LINE - - -
Next time you wish to post an idea at least check to see if it's already being discussed.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBlackwell View Post
Ok, At this point i'm sorry I said ANYTHING! I would make a full retraction if possible. I still stand that the drops are far too lacking on several key enhancements that I am looking for and the 40 - 50 mil pricetags are completely outrageous. But you people and your inane replys that border on harassment really take the cake.

- - - END OF LINE - - -
I spent 1.2 billion inf on Tuesday, and I am far from one of the richest players in the game. It really isn't hard to come by inf. Just play the game and sell your drops, and you'll make inf. If you want to speed it up, look into flipping and crafting.

50 million inf is probably akin to talking about having 1 million Zimbabwe Dollars. It's literally nothing.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBlackwell View Post
Ok, At this point i'm sorry I said ANYTHING! I would make a full retraction if possible. I still stand that the drops are far too lacking on several key enhancements that I am looking for and the 40 - 50 mil pricetags are completely outrageous. But you people and your inane replys that border on harassment really take the cake.

- - - END OF LINE - - -
Harassment? REALLY?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LISAR View Post
Next time you wish to post an idea at least check to see if it's already being discussed.
Next time you wish to post a market idea, learn how the market works first.


Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBlackwell View Post
Ok, At this point i'm sorry I said ANYTHING! I would make a full retraction if possible. I still stand that the drops are far too lacking on several key enhancements that I am looking for and the 40 - 50 mil pricetags are completely outrageous. But you people and your inane replys that border on harassment really take the cake.

- - - END OF LINE - - -
Petulant whining isn't going to get people to stop pointing out the glaringly obvious flaws in your suggestion. Instead of throwing a hissy-fit you should consider the good advice you have been given and use it so you can afford the enhancements you want to buy.


 

Posted

A better alternative to adding in a cap that could get you an entire purple set from one ITF would be to slightly (ever so slightly) increasing the drop rates of PvP and Purple Recepies. That way you would be more likely to get them and the buying prices would slowly reduce and they because more readily avaliable. See the truth is if something is in demand then the price ramps up untill there is enough of it for everyone. Gold is a good example of this, because it's so pure there is a very limited supply so shares in the gold market just keep getting more expencive. If you bought some shares in the gold market a few decades ago, now they would be worth well over 10x as much as they are worth now. so if you bought a purple recepie a few issues ago for 10mill, you could sell it now for arround 100mill or so.

Another alternative would be to increase the total ammount of recipies and salvage you can hold, as this way you will avaliable to the random drops more often as you cannot get a drop when your inventory is full so you have a 0% change to get the recipy you want whereas you might have a 5% chance if you did have space. and also any other recpies you don't want can be sold for inf when it gets full. i think max 50 recipies and max 100 salvage is a reasonable maximum for a cap, but not necessarily what the cap shoudl be =)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeonPower View Post
A better alternative to adding in a cap that could get you an entire purple set from one ITF would be to slightly (ever so slightly) increasing the drop rates of PvP and Purple Recepies. That way you would be more likely to get them and the buying prices would slowly reduce and they because more readily avaliable. See the truth is if something is in demand then the price ramps up untill there is enough of it for everyone. Gold is a good example of this, because it's so pure there is a very limited supply so shares in the gold market just keep getting more expencive. If you bought some shares in the gold market a few decades ago, now they would be worth well over 10x as much as they are worth now. so if you bought a purple recepie a few issues ago for 10mill, you could sell it now for arround 100mill or so.

Another alternative would be to increase the total ammount of recipies and salvage you can hold, as this way you will avaliable to the random drops more often as you cannot get a drop when your inventory is full so you have a 0% change to get the recipy you want whereas you might have a 5% chance if you did have space. and also any other recpies you don't want can be sold for inf when it gets full. i think max 50 recipies and max 100 salvage is a reasonable maximum for a cap, but not necessarily what the cap shoudl be =)
This assumes that the developers want the ultra-rare recipes to be more common, which as far as I can tell, is not the case.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBlackwell View Post
THis makes it practically impossible for lower level characters to get a hold of them.
Great; not every no-name, throwaway alt should be able to afford set IO builds. Making set IOs more accessible would damage the health of the game by removing long-term goals for characters who are already at 50. Since IOs are optional, a level playing field already exists.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBlackwell View Post
Ok, At this point i'm sorry I said ANYTHING! I would make a full retraction if possible. I still stand that the drops are far too lacking on several key enhancements that I am looking for and the 40 - 50 mil pricetags are completely outrageous. But you people and your inane replys that border on harassment really take the cake.

- - - END OF LINE - - -
Drops might be lacking on some items, however the devs could easily fix that if they chose to by increasing drop rates, the fact that they don't suggests they want to keep those recipes rare.

As for why people reacted the way they did to your comment it is not in any way harassment you have a horrible idea and got called on it, but yes there was a large quantity of sarcasm. The reason is basically two-fold. First off a price cap will not increase supply in items, in fact it would have exactly the opposite effect. This is obvious to anyone who has any knowledge of economics (heck spend an hour reading wikipedia). The other reason is that as LISAR commented threads complaining about market prices are EXTREMELY common and the majority of posters are completely fed up with them hence while we reply and take the time to explain why it's a bad idea we tend to allow sarcasm to color our answers. I'm not going to apologize for this since using the search feature would have allowed you to turn up several threads discussing this very topic.