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All the TF/SFs would STILL be directed towards teaming. As stated, only a very small percentage of the playerbase have the builds and/or the will to bother soloing this content.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I guess I don't understand why some content in this game can't be directed towards Teams only?
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What's the point in leaving in a completely arbitrary hurdle toward getting it started when it's already going to be a rough ride to accomplish?
There's good forced teaming design: Hamidon and the Rikti Ship Raid
There's lousy forced teaming design: multiple click glowies and arbitrary minimum team sizes.
Getting more of the first while getting rid of the second is good game design. Leaving forced minimum requirements in place while also leaving in an age old exploit to get around the minimum requirements is bad game design.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I don't think anyone here is stating that there shouldn't be team content, but more that it shoudl be team content by is basic nature, rather than a label stuck on an otherwise normal story arc.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I guess I don't understand why some content in this game can't be directed towards Teams only?
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Things that require teams should be challanges for a team. The Freedom Phalanx TFs in particular fail miserably at this, being a series of 'typical' arc missions with an AV at the end. Apart from the TF label and the non-scaling AV, they are really no different to arcs.
(Sorry to the writers of those, but it is your early work and we can tell you got much better over time)
Compare the Manticore TF with 'Catching Countess Crey' (the 40-44 arc). To me, the second is more worthy of a TF that Manticore is. There is certainly nothing more worthy in the Manti TF.
More modern TFs like the 5th Column, the ITF and the STF are true team challanges. Even if the ITF has been soloed, the final battle is something that requires more than surviving the attacks of a big bag of HP whilst outdoing the base regen rate.
Make a team challange that requires some co-ordination and division of roles such that they can't be soloed. However, I want that without a requirement of needing specific ATs (The 5th SF fails for me, in that a MM is effectively required just for the anti-phase power).
Yes I know I don't ask for much....
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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You can avoid the hoops...run the TFs as designed. |
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
Some content in the game will still be directed at teams only.
I don't understand why people insist on making others jump through hoops to enjoy themselves. Especially when it won't hurt them in any way. |
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
All the TF/SFs would STILL be directed towards teaming. As stated, only a very small percentage of the playerbase have the builds and/or the will to bother soloing this content.
What's the point in leaving in a completely arbitrary hurdle toward getting it started when it's already going to be a rough ride to accomplish? There's good forced teaming design: Hamidon and the Rikti Ship Raid There's lousy forced teaming design: multiple click glowies and arbitrary minimum team sizes. Getting more of the first while getting rid of the second is good game design. Leaving forced minimum requirements in place while also leaving in an age old exploit to get around the minimum requirements is bad game design. |
Seriously, I would probably solo a TF here/there but I really don't see a need for this or an argument against it.
I was just trying to get some logic as to why, and more than "because it's dumb, idiotic, etc."
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That doesn't avoid the hoop. It still forces me to get X number of players to start what is so obviously not team-worthy content.| You can avoid the hoops...run the TFs as designed. |
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| Seriously, I would probably solo a TF here/there but I really don't see a need for this or an argument against it. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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True, but it is a much more enjoyable experience for everybody if people that don't want to team are not forced to.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
You can avoid the hoops...run the TFs as designed.
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I agree with you, but Bill's point is true. TF/SFs are for the most part NOT team content in difficulty. Soloing AVs is trivial for many builds and that's the worst that most TF/SFs throw at you.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I guess I don't understand why some content in this game can't be directed towards Teams only?
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I am in favor of making some team content, because honestly, I'm lazy and need a reason to team. I enjoy teaming, but will not unless I need to. Yes, that's a failing of mine. I think the best way to 'fix' this problem such as it is, is to make TFs mechanically impossible to solo.
Not via cheese like simultaneous clickies. But perhaps by tasks that simply cannot be accomplished by a single player. Hami, RWZ raids, STF/LRSF all seem to qualify. More of that, less of the Manticore snoozefests that folks do solo for a challenge.
Question for the group. Is anyone known to be able to solo the Katie Hannon TF? I can't imagine it would be impossible, but it seems like a +3 Mary would be a PITA of the highest order.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I managed it before, haven't tried for a while. That would be on Cat and using small insps from the Tree of life. ( think to get her the 10 times, she and especially her mobs on each new summon got me 5 or 6. Alone she really doesn't have much damage output. You do have to move when she summons a Lighning storm to avoid excess end sappage.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Question for the group. Is anyone known to be able to solo the Katie Hannon TF? I can't imagine it would be impossible, but it seems like a +3 Mary would be a PITA of the highest order.
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However, currently, the ramping isn't working. Seems to be an unintended consequence of the slider settings not working for TFs.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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For you. Just because it's not team worthy for you doesn't make it not team-worthy for everyone. I'd be willing to bet that the number of people that routinely solo TFs, or even CAN solo TFs is about the same, if not smaller, than the population that PvPs. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
That doesn't avoid the hoop. It still forces me to get X number of players to start what is so obviously not team-worthy content.
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For me, these are definitely team-worthy events. I'm willing to bet that they are for a lot of other people, too. Do some need an update? Sure. Manticore and Positron definitely could use some help to stop them from being as boring as they are, and Manticore definitely doesn't need 7 people on it. But that doesn't mean that they should just remove the player number restriction.
In my opinion, the restriction forces players that know what they are doing to get around it, versus if it was removed, solo players could find themselves spending hours on something that they can't complete at all.
As is, the restriction is a fairly small hurdle for a small group of players. If removed, it could be a much larger headache for a larger portion of the playerbase. Removing the player restriction, to a lot of people, would be a sign that the content can be soloed by any decent build, when it really can't. Certain builds can, especially after heavy investment in IOs, but it's definitely not the norm.
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| Ok. Quit posting in threads asking for it. The logic for keeping the status quo in place has been boiled down to one thing: the work involved to change it. All other reasons for forced teaming of non-team worthy content have been trounced into the ground repeatedly. Since it doesn't matter to you one way or the other, stay out of it. |
This isn't a common suggestion, and I've not seen a thread discussing this in a long time, especially not one where the arguments against have been trounced repeatedly. So can you leave the high horse at the door, please?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I am responding before reading everything, here, so I may repeat stuff...
I would love to be able to solo TFs. I always felt that it would be a fun "reward" for level 50 characters-- those epic heoes who are at the top of their game-- to be able to do so.
I have been playing the game since launch and have only even seen a handfull of the TFs because my work schedule doesn't allow me the time to commit to them. I can sometimes get my usual gang to sign up for them with me, but then I have 7 other people waiting a week between missions because I might be away, or playing at awkward times for them. A TF might take up to 2 months for us to do, tieing up everyone else's characters for my sake. I don't feel too good about doing that to them.
I loved that Jade Spider story because it let my lvl 50 tanker take part in what felt like an epic mission appropriate to her stature. More stuff like that would make me feel better about not having access to TFs.
I would happily do TS with *NO* reward whatsoever if it meant that I could just see them and enjoy the content that everyone else seems able to. Hell, I'd even pay for tokens to do them.
Est sularis oth Mithas
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I totally agree.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I agree with you, but Bill's point is true. TF/SFs are for the most part NOT team content in difficulty. Soloing AVs is trivial for many builds and that's the worst that most TF/SFs throw at you.
I am in favor of making some team content, because honestly, I'm lazy and need a reason to team. I enjoy teaming, but will not unless I need to. Yes, that's a failing of mine. I think the best way to 'fix' this problem such as it is, is to make TFs mechanically impossible to solo. Not via cheese like simultaneous clickies. But perhaps by tasks that simply cannot be accomplished by a single player. Hami, RWZ raids, STF/LRSF all seem to qualify. More of that, less of the Manticore snoozefests that folks do solo for a challenge. |
The fix for team content being with some tricks solo-able against obvious intention should not be leaving it broken and not calling it team content any more, but making it really team content.
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You're correct, actually. That was rude and uncalled for and I apologize to Clouded for it. It's also rude and useless to keep repeating the mantra "I don't get it" or "I don't see the point" when both have been plainly laid out multiple times.|
Bill, despite what you may think, you do not have the right to tell people when they can and when they can't post, or where, for that matter. He has all the right in the world to say that he doesn't care a lot, but he's on the 'status quo' side of an argument. You bullying people into saying that they can't post just because you don't like what their saying doesn't help your arguments. Neither really does just saying that the other arguments against it are trash, when you have yet to demonstrate in this thread that they don't have any validity. This isn't a common suggestion, and I've not seen a thread discussing this in a long time, especially not one where the arguments against have been trounced repeatedly. So can you leave the high horse at the door, please? |
You find the TF/SFs in the game team worthy. Some people can't handle EBs during standard arcs. Should those missions be locked down with a minimum team requirement because players with specific powerset combinations and/or build choices are unable to complete the task at hand?
If not, then why should TF/SFs be locked down?
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| As is, the restriction is a fairly small hurdle for a small group of players. If removed, it could be a much larger headache for a larger portion of the playerbase. Removing the player restriction, to a lot of people, would be a sign that the content can be soloed by any decent build, when it really can't. Certain builds can, especially after heavy investment in IOs, but it's definitely not the norm. |
Because the devs decided that there would be players too stupid to realize that taking teleport twice on a warshade would probably be a waste of a power pick.
Seriously. That's the real reason.
And it's now being repeated as a primary reason to leave TF/SFs with a minimum team size requirement. Text stating "this mission arc is designed for a team size of X. Attempting it with less than that may lead to failure," isn't good enough because too many players can't/don't read or can't be bothered with doing so and accepting the consequences.
Well done, A_T. You have swayed my opinion. I now accept why this request will never be granted and my pursuit of it stops now.
Clouded, I again apologize to you for my outburst.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I appreciate the sarcasm there. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Now this line of thinking sounds very familiar to me. It reminds me that Kheldians aren't allowed access to the teleport or flight power pools. Do you know why that is?
Because the devs decided that there would be players too stupid to realize that taking teleport twice on a warshade would probably be a waste of a power pick. Seriously. That's the real reason. And it's now being repeated as a primary reason to leave TF/SFs with a minimum team size requirement. Text stating "this mission arc is designed for a team size of X. Attempting it with less than that may lead to failure," isn't good enough because too many players can't/don't read or can't be bothered with doing so and accepting the consequences. Well done, A_T. You have swayed my opinion. I now accept why this request will never be granted and my pursuit of it stops now. |
I know that that was the reason why Kheldians can't unlock those pools, and I think that it's fairly dumb to still have those restrictions (especially for Peacebringers and the TP pool, and Warshades and the Flight pool), when the tech should exist to lock out certain powers, instead of whole pools. However, on that, standard code rant does apply.
Yes, it's a fairly stupid reason to lock things out just because people might be stupid. But that's not the only reason not to do it. I feel like TFs should be team content. They should still have some minimum team size to them. But, if that does remain in place, then the TF should warrant the team size minimum. This should be along the lines of making the TFs harder, and more team dependent.
Would that stink for you by making you unable to solo the TFs? Yes, it most likely would. But I think that it's more in line with the intent behind TFs more than removing the teaming restriction would be. TFs were meant to be team content. Just because you can solo them now doesn't make that intent invalid.
There are two ways to fix it (probably more, but I think that these are the two main ones):
1) Remove the teaming restrictions, put in a little caption saying that it's very hard content to do solo or with small teams, and remove the intent of the TF as being team content. Or,
2) Keep the intent, and make the TFs worthy of being team content.
Between those two choices, I side with choice #2. It's fine if you want to put your hat in the ring for choice #1. It's perfectly fine. You're entitled to your opinion. And you're welcome to voice it. However, belittling those who disagree with you isn't the way to win a fight. I was actually pretty ambivalent on the issue until I saw your posts in this thread, which made me really want to side against you. But instead of just doing that, I decided that I'd rather be constructive, and throw my hat into the ring for option b, rather than just have to side with you, or risk being considered an idiot.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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No, it wouldn't bother me at all. I can't solo Hami and that doesn't phase me. If TFs were altered to be mechanically impossible to solo, I'd still attempt to do so. If I failed I'd say a hearty "well played" to the devs and move on as long as it wasn't something stupid like multiple glowies.| Would that stink for you by making you unable to solo the TFs? Yes, it most likely would. But I think that it's more in line with the intent behind TFs more than removing the teaming restriction would be. TFs were meant to be team content. Just because you can solo them now doesn't make that intent invalid. |
It would be a vastly superior situation than being forced to exploit the system in order to to start the solo-easy content currently available to us.
Now ask yourself which will involve more work? Reworking all the TFs so that a team is actually necessary? Or removing the min req and turning off the flag on simultaneous glowies? The answer should be obvious.
But of course, based on the fact that the devs feel the need to hold the hands of the ignorant and weak, this is all now a moot point. The status quo will remain in place and those that have the will to do so will continue exploiting the system so that we can make the attempt at whatever content we desire.
Hopefully the devs working diligently at returning our ability to adjust TF difficulty will get the fix in place soon. It's bad enough that we have to waste our time finding pads... it adds insult to injury being forced to play on easy mode if you want to run that content.
Be well, people of CoH.
I have a question, Bill...
You mention filling a team and then having everyone quit as a way to solo it. Now, I already knew about that but was too lazy to ever try. However, you mention having "all but one" quit and then having him log out without quitting. So it that you as a player and then 1 other person (keeping 2 total on the team), or just yourself?
Est sularis oth Mithas
The one person (sometimes called an anchor) logs off and plays no part. A task Force dissolves if there is only one person associated with it. This is the way the TF solers get round that restriction.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Personally I would be fine with option 2. But as long as most of the Task Forces are able to be soloed, I don't see a point in keeping the restriction around. If someone chooses to ignore a TF warning when they try to solo it, they have nobody to blame but themselves.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
There are two ways to fix it (probably more, but I think that these are the two main ones): 1) Remove the teaming restrictions, put in a little caption saying that it's very hard content to do solo or with small teams, and remove the intent of the TF as being team content. Or, 2) Keep the intent, and make the TFs worthy of being team content. |
Hell the way they TFs are now(at least several of the original six), I've thought about selling spots for a few million influence for people to just log in for the last mission so they can get merits. With the right build, they just aren't very hard. The supersidekicking system just made them that much easier for level 50s that want to do them as well.
Let us start TFs/SFs solo. People shouldn't be afraid of failure, especially in a video game. If they can't do it themselves, let them find other ways such as teaming. As long as you give them proper warning beforehand, they have no one to blame but themselves.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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This...|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
It's been asked for. Repeatedly. All reasons against allowing it are irrational, stupid, moronic, idiotic, dumb, ridiculous, asinine, illogical and pointless. Some of the devs appear to be against it regardless of that fact.
It's an annoyance. One that shouldn't exist. But it is what it is. |
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Originally Posted by Reiraku
Let us start TFs/SFs solo. People shouldn't be afraid of failure, especially in a video game. If they can't do it themselves, let them find other ways such as teaming. As long as you give them proper warning beforehand, they have no one to blame but themselves.
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I think the main difference between tf and story arc is that tf team can't be changed once started, but story arc team doesn't have such requirement. For story arc team, players are free to recruit more when they can't do it. That's why it is unnecessary to have minimum team size requirement.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You find the TF/SFs in the game team worthy. Some people can't handle EBs during standard arcs. Should those missions be locked down with a minimum team requirement because players with specific powerset combinations and/or build choices are unable to complete the task at hand?
If not, then why should TF/SFs be locked down? |
For tf, it's also not necessary to have a minimum team size. If a small team can't do it, in principle, they can disband, recruit more members, and try the tf all over again from the beginning. If you want to avoid this from happening, one way is to have an estimate of the number of players needed, and use the estimate as minimum team size requirement before the tf can be started. In my opinion, the intention of the team size is not to force people to team, but to avoid the frustration of restarting long tf.
As you mentioned, the minimum team size requirement can be replaced by a warning before the tf starts. A warning is more flexible as it allows players to try the tf at their own risk. I'm not the dev, I don't know if they thought about it in the past. My bet is that it is safer to impose the team size requirement to ensure success of finishing long tfs.
Throughout the years, things changed. Tfs are no longer long in general, in fact the newer tfs are designed to be shorter. People can solo AVs or even multiple AVs, and there are discussions on how to solo AVs for squishies. The intention of the team size requirement I mentioned above is a little outdated.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Now ask yourself which will involve more work? Reworking all the TFs so that a team is actually necessary? Or removing the min req and turning off the flag on simultaneous glowies? The answer should be obvious.
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I forgive ya...you had me at "clouded..."
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Clouded, I again apologize to you for my outburst.
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Some content in the game will still be directed at teams only.
I don't understand why people insist on making others jump through hoops to enjoy themselves. Especially when it won't hurt them in any way.