Caging Questions
By
detroitfrost,
Posted on: 2009-12-13 09:29 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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First, we need to distinguish the difference between the intangible powers and caging powers. Dimension Shift and Black Hole apply the phase status; if you then phase yourself you will be able to affect/be affected by those enemies that you phased. The cages, Sonic Cage and Detention Field, apply the AffectOnlySelf and Untouchable status which cannot be circumvented for the duration of the effect.|
Originally Posted by detroitfrost
I have a couple of caging questions:
1. Do intangible cages stack? For example, if I throw Dimension Shift on an AV that ambushes my team while we are fighting a large group of enemies; the AV shrugs off the shift, if I then throw out Sonic Cage on it right afterwords will it stack and overpower the AV? 2. Do Cages even stack? 3. Why the heck does Dimension Shift accept intangibility enhancements yet, Sonic Cage does not?! |
In every case, if Dimension Shift hits it will apply the phased status as there seems to be no protection against it. It will phase EB's, AV's, and even GM's every time. So there is no need to stack effects. Even if there was such a need Dimension Shift and Sonic Cage apply different effects that would not stack. For giggles, you could phase an enemy with Dimension Shift, use Phase Shift, then cage the enemy with Sonic Cage.
I'll have to do a bit of testing to answer your second question.
As for the third, at one time Dimension Shift applied an Intangible effect similar to AffectOnlySelf/Untouchable. The magnitude of this effect seemed to scale with level and could be enhanced. Now that it applies the Phase status those enhancements do nothing*. Since Sonic Cage/Detention Field never applied the Intangible status they were never able to utilize those enhancements.
*The visual effect and removal of collision detection boxes still seems to be linked to the old intangible effect mechanics. An unenhanced Dimension Shift will not appear to affect an even level boss mob (because it is only mag 3 and the visual effects will not kick in), however that boss is phased.
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Are you certain of this? Have you tested it against hami for instance? I'd be curious to know.
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Originally Posted by ketch
In every case, if Dimension Shift hits it will apply the phased status as there seems to be no protection against it. It will phase EB's, AV's, and even GM's every time. So there is no need to stack effects.
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No, I haven't tested against Hami. I have tested against regular AV's and GM's however. I suppose I should be more careful with words.|
Originally Posted by Kahlan_
Are you certain of this? Have you tested it against hami for instance? I'd be curious to know.
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It should also be noted that Hami breaks a lot of rules in regard to what it can do. It can also break through the Untouchable status given to Phantom Army.
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It should be noted that purple patch is in effect and AVs seem to have a default of "boss" level protection against Sonic Cage/Dimension Shift's phase. You have to slot two of the relevant (acc/mez) S/HOs into both of the ST cage variants in order to have high enough magnitude for the STF's +4 AVs.| In every case, if Dimension Shift hits it will apply the phased status as there seems to be no protection against it. It will phase EB's, AV's, and even GM's every time. So there is no need to stack effects. Even if there was such a need Dimension Shift and Sonic Cage apply different effects that would not stack. For giggles, you could phase an enemy with Dimension Shift, use Phase Shift, then cage the enemy with Sonic Cage. |
It's one of those things that's kind of frustrating because the necessary Intange magnitude is just out of Black Hole's reach (and that includes doing something like 6xEnhancement towards it).
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
Thanks for all the responses...
I guess one day when I'm feeling particularly saucy, I'll transfer my grav/sonic to TEST and respec and try and answer question 2 for myself.
However I have another question or two:
1) If intangibility enhancements are no longer relevant why are they still in the game?
2) If S/HO's are the only thing that can affect the mag of Cages and I assume Dimension Shift... can't the devs just apply that ability to the (apparently useless) intangibility enhancers?
Is there a developer that has commented on this yet? Is there a specific developer that is in charge of standard (non-set, IO) enhancements I can PM and ask?
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Are there some problems about the in-game combat attribute for sonic cage? I put HOs in Sonic Cage, but the attribute says the magnitude stays the same, and the effective time is extended. When I time how long I can actually cage a minion, it is still 30 seconds.
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Originally Posted by LostHalo
It should be noted that purple patch is in effect and AVs seem to have a default of "boss" level protection against Sonic Cage/Dimension Shift's phase. You have to slot two of the relevant (acc/mez) S/HOs into both of the ST cage variants in order to have high enough magnitude for the STF's +4 AVs.
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Mez magnitude cannot be buffed. Not with Enhancements, not with Domination (which actually applies an additional round of mez on top of the first one), not with anything.
The only aspect of a mez power that can be buffed, debuffed or resisted is the duration.
What LostHalo is probably experiencing is the effects of the powers wearing off (due to mez resistance) without the HamiOs before they could be stacked enough to affect the AVs. I can see how this could be interprated as an increase in the powers' magnitudes.
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You can alter the magnitude of Intangible and it does scale with the purple patch. I can't speak for Detention Field and Sonic Cage, but the effective magnitude of intangibility is affected by both level and enhancements. It's just not in line with the phase portion of the power.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Mez magnitude cannot be buffed. Not with Enhancements, not with Domination (which actually applies an additional round of mez on top of the first one), not with anything.
The only aspect of a mez power that can be buffed, debuffed or resisted is the duration. What LostHalo is probably experiencing is the effects of the powers wearing off (due to mez resistance) without the HamiOs before they could be stacked enough to affect the AVs. I can see how this could be interprated as an increase in the powers' magnitudes. |
In other words, Dimension Shift is broken.
If Intangibility magnitude can be buffed, then it's a bug. The Enhancements have been called "Intangibility Duration" for years now.
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Sorry, but this is not true. Endoplasm HO's do increase the mag of cage powers, such as FF's Detention Field. The duration remains fixed at 30 seconds.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Mez magnitude cannot be buffed. Not with Enhancements, not with Domination (which actually applies an additional round of mez on top of the first one), not with anything.
The only aspect of a mez power that can be buffed, debuffed or resisted is the duration. What LostHalo is probably experiencing is the effects of the powers wearing off (due to mez resistance) without the HamiOs before they could be stacked enough to affect the AVs. I can see how this could be interprated as an increase in the powers' magnitudes. |
Remind me to look into this. I've done some "research" that brings the user agreement into question, and according to my understanding of how mezzes work, magnitude cannot be altered in any way. If Enhancements alter the effect of Only Affect Self powers and not the duration, then those powers must be configured differently internally.
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K I'm reminding you; please research this.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Remind me to look into this. I've done some "research" that brings the user agreement into question, and according to my understanding of how mezzes work, magnitude cannot be altered in any way. If Enhancements alter the effect of Only Affect Self powers and not the duration, then those powers must be configured differently internally.
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Very funny, but I haven't forgotten yet.
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How about now? |
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Very funny, but I haven't forgotten yet.
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Forgotten about wha--heeeeeeey. I see what you did there!
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In some cases, the magnitude of certain effects can indeed be buffed by enhacements, such as the ones called "Increase Knockback Distance"
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
If Intangibility magnitude can be buffed, then it's a bug. The Enhancements have been called "Intangibility Duration" for years now.
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Knockback is the exception in the world of mez, since it isn't technically a status effect. Internally, Knockback powers are set up differently and don't make use of the "magnitude" variable; they simply have a force/distance value, which can be buffed.
Cages are not the same as regular mezzes. Their duration is fixed, the magnitude is not.
We (SG, etc.) have been using Sonic Cage and Detention Field for several hundreds of STF runs plus several years of regular goofing-around use. They are always 30 seconds in duration. However, without proper enhancement to their magnitude, you never see the effect.
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And they've been named wrong since the change to the other direction was made. I seem to recall the issue was two-fold: magnitude couldn't be stacked and if the magnitude was high enough, it was laughably easy to make a Cage last somewhere in the area of a few minutes. (In fact, I seem to recall that the AoE Intanges had a base duration of 60 seconds. Now just imagine that at say, 300% enhancement value on Black Hole with perma-Hasten.)
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
If Intangibility magnitude can be buffed, then it's a bug. The Enhancements have been called "Intangibility Duration" for years now.
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Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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That's not so. Pretty much everything has a magnitude value; whether slotting affects magnitude or duration is part of the power definition (it can't do both). Enhancing magnitude is actually quite common--it's what happens every time you slot a debuff or buff, for instance. See Arcanaville's post here for more on magnitude, specifically as it relates to Dimension Shift.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Knockback is the exception in the world of mez, since it isn't technically a status effect. Internally, Knockback powers are set up differently and don't make use of the "magnitude" variable; they simply have a force/distance value, which can be buffed.
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This is a bit of a matter of contention.|
Originally Posted by LostHalo
It should be noted that purple patch is in effect and AVs seem to have a default of "boss" level protection against Sonic Cage/Dimension Shift's phase. You have to slot two of the relevant (acc/mez) S/HOs into both of the ST cage variants in order to have high enough magnitude for the STF's +4 AVs.
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Controllers can get away with slotting 2 Acc/Mez hamis, however, Defenders have lower values for the cage magnitude, and therefore may require the third.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
I just went off-hand with what my Earth/Sonic has, which is two. I believe our FF/Elec Defender has just two slotted as well but I may be mistaken.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
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This would be the missing link, then. I'll admit that my "research" is incomplete and when I made my analysis of mez powers, I didn't notice the flag that determines which aspect of the power is buffed. Once I "look into it" again in a week or so, I'll keep an eye out for this flag.
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Originally Posted by Wonderslug
[...] whether slotting affects magnitude or duration is part of the power definition (it can't do both). [...]
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I have never seen this to be the case. Considering it's probably one of (if not the) most often requested alterations to phasing in this game (allowing phased players and critters to do separate battle from non-phased critters/players) and that whenever the subject is brought up nobody mentions that the mechanic already exists, I doubt anyone else has, either. And if nobody but you has noticed the mechanic in almost 6 years, I doubt you're correct.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Dimension Shift and Black Hole apply the phase status; if you then phase yourself you will be able to affect/be affected by those enemies that you phased.
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Originally Posted by ketch
As for the third, at one time Dimension Shift applied an Intangible effect similar to AffectOnlySelf/Untouchable. The magnitude of this effect seemed to scale with level and could be enhanced. Now that it applies the Phase status those enhancements do nothing*. Since Sonic Cage/Detention Field never applied the Intangible status they were never able to utilize those enhancements.
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Originally Posted by detroitfrost
If intangibility enhancements are no longer relevant why are they still in the game?
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Originally Posted by detroitfrost
If S/HO's are the only thing that can affect the mag of Cages and I assume Dimension Shift... can't the devs just apply that ability to the (apparently useless) intangibility enhancers?
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Mez magnitude cannot be buffed.
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Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
If Intangibility magnitude can be buffed, then it's a bug. The Enhancements have been called "Intangibility Duration" for years now.
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And yes, intang enhancements have always been called "Duration" - it's the name that's a bug, no their effect on the powers.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I'm not the only one that has noticed it. Arcanaville pointed out the change to me and I confirmed it myself. Here's the post where she does so.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I have never seen this to be the case. Considering it's probably one of (if not the) most often requested alterations to phasing in this game (allowing phased players and critters to do separate battle from non-phased critters/players) and that whenever the subject is brought up nobody mentions that the mechanic already exists, I doubt anyone else has, either. And if nobody but you has noticed the mechanic in almost 6 years, I doubt you're correct.
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The fact that no one mentions it derives from two things: Dimension Shift is a royal mess, and people are set in following old information.
I have a couple of caging questions:
1. Do intangible cages stack? For example, if I throw Dimension Shift on an AV that ambushes my team while we are fighting a large group of enemies; the AV shrugs off the shift, if I then throw out Sonic Cage on it right afterwords will it stack and overpower the AV?
2. Do Cages even stack?
3. Why the heck does Dimension Shift accept intangibility enhancements yet, Sonic Cage does not?!
Disclaimer:
I do not want to read a bunch of posts/flames about any of the following:
- the situational usage of cages; I personally have found numerous uses for Sonic Cage on my Fire/Sonic corr, and Dimension Shift on my Gravity controller and am thinking about picking up Sonic Cage with him as well.
- the merits or horrors of PVP caging,
- That you would kick me from your team if I caged a single person ever; frankly I'm a conscientious enough player to know what's appropriate and what's not; and am quite adept at the tactical usage of cages in both a solo, small team, and large team environment.