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I find the concept of Lady Stryker leading a Hamidon raid utterly mind boggling, and yet hilarious.
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Originally Posted by _Cherry_
You conveyed several times both in request and in tells the fact that it was being done incorrectly and that how AOW and UHB will "show us all how its done" (im sure UHB didnt appreciate you dropping their name into the mix). In the 8 months Ive been a part of these raids, felecia, ive never seen you there..nevermind leading a team, or an entire raid.
I Invite you to do so. Infact, Im sure all of us would be interested in seeing this and welcome it. Youre big on "tossing down the gauntlet" for things.. so here it is.. I challenge you and aow to lead a hami raid and showing us all the correct way to do it. |
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
Thanks for the effort Cherry, it was my first time doing a hero Hami raid in a while. I know how things can get pretty chaotic especially when people don't listen and follow directions.
Just realized, I've been at more villain hami raids than hero raids this year....crazy.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Hmmm...
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Originally Posted by _Cherry_
In the 8 months that i personally have been part of the raids, I've never seen Steel at a raid participating let alone leading a team or the raid itself.
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I have you on global... its an assumption I made, please correct me if Im wrong. Typically i go down my global list to see what "people" of mine are there. |
Originally Posted by Steel_Brigade
Hmmm...
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I can say with certainty that you've not led a raid since Ive been participating.. or, at least, youve not included me if you have led them.
I do very much look forward to the ideas you shared with me after the raid lastnight... they seem solid on paper.. it'll be fun seeing them implemented.
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At no point in any conversation between Fel and I did I state or indicate that "UHB and AOW" will show blank and blank how it's done. I want that to be clear because there are several of you that just love to say we're cool behind the scenes then you go out and blow anything we've talked about into the stratosphere and say you're upset with me or I did you wrong. I'll be honest in saying that those are the kinda people that make me sick! I was asked a question: "have you done this before?" And I replied, "yes, but I do it (the raid) differently". I went on to describe my approach during that chat and again, at no point, did I suggest or put down our Tuesday's impromptu raid. In fact, I fully supported the process and even stated "i'm playing my position" and did so til the end. Any good leader understands when it's time to follow and I was happy to do so with respect to Cherry's lead.|
Originally Posted by _Cherry_
You conveyed several times both in request and in tells the fact that it was being done incorrectly and that how AOW and UHB will "show us all how its done" (im sure UHB didnt appreciate you dropping their name into the mix).
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The drama isn't necessary and I especially do not appreciate my handle being used to give credence to B.S. that shouldn't be going on in the first place. All of you should be invested in having a good time at all costs using this medium - As a war vet (for all you CNN watchers) I can tell you that there are greater tragedies in this world than this to harp on. But while you're here i'm sure we would all be happier if you do not waste our time with pettiness.
Chins up, Champions! Raids fail and there are always some challenges to grow from. And for those that haven't seen my no retreat raid I hope you'll grace us with your support and participation when I start them after the New Year. And to be clear, it's something I intended to do anyways and IS NOT part of any "OH, WE'RE GONNA SHOW THEM" drama type B.S. Those that know me already know that's not my style. The 'no exit' strategy (I call Gulliver's Reign) was done long before this with the assistance of Cobalt (Targeting), Force (lead tank team) and many other great community players. We'll do them again soon as a community.
Stay Blessed!
I would love to help out next time; I haven't attended a raid in a bit.
I'm sure that was the difference. (Kidding, kidding...) ; P
-Star
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Ok, that came out wrong... (it was meant more of a past tense kinda thing.. not present)| In the 8 months that i personally have been part of the raids, I've never seen Steel at a raid participating let alone leading a team or the raid itself. He is a long time vet and Im sure has been a part of prior raids, and Im sure he has some ideas on how to improve them, and thats fine. |
Steel was at the raid and on with all of the team leaders on vent, he was incredibly supportive of the leads in place lastnight.. he was trying to help find a solution to the issues at hand. And I did appreciate it.
Like he said, failures happen..lets all move on and focus on better things.
Thanks again for all of you that came out and that were supportive.
Sorry to hear the raid didn't work out. I've been out of town for the holidays and unable to log on. Otherwise, I would have been there to help.
I'd just like to say a few things in general...
In response to the following statement in Felecia's post:
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Since my name was mentioned, I would like it to be known that many of the leads at the raid, Cherry specifically, have been at just about every single raid I've lead, on Vent with me, and part of the ongoing raid discussion. We have been raiding for over year on a weekly basis, successfully each week, in about an hour or less. While we may be looking for ways to improve upon our current strategy, we're far past the point of learning how to complete one. Cherry started helping out a while ago in a leadership capacity on the yellow taunt team, then lead a few raids herself in the past without issue. I have no doubt she knows what to do and has the experience necessary to be a successful raid leader. Same thing applies to the dedicated group of people who help out every Sunday (you guys know who you are and you're all awesome. Much love. | I suggest you get advice from Amygdala, Cobalt Azurean, and Steel Brigade on how they do it successfully. |
)The strategy we use is extremely reliable and very flexible. Since I wasn't at the raid, I have no way of knowing what didn't work out. One thing does stand out to me though.
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| walking into the zone with your 8 man team, and several other aow people on their own team as well caused quite a bit of disruption. |
Like I said, I can't comment definitively on what didn't work out this time. But regardless, I do think that this kind of reaction is unnecessary. As Steel said, sometimes raids fail. It happens. Luckily for us, it happens very rarely. Thus, with our track record, I say it's safe to let it go and move on.
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
Yanno I have to ask this question .... Felecia have you ever ran a successful raid? How many? I don't know if you have or haven't because I have not been to but a couple of raids in the last few months. However being you are sounding as if you know how to run them and giving opinions and advice I feel the need to ask.
I will say this though, while I personally noticed a few things that could possibly have been improved upon (which is pretty much any raid you can notice a thing or 2), overall the leadership was great for this raid and **** just happens.
While Amy wasn't there, I was. As someone who has ran literally hundreds of raids I think I am pretty qualified to say that Cherry you did just fine and shouldn't let it get to you. Just have an open mind to everything you think could have went wrong and learn from the things that you had control over and let the things you didn't have control over go. I was on vent and feel quite confindant from everything that I heard that the team leads had their **** together for the most part. There was just various circumstances that made things not flow properly.
Again, keep your head up and from looking at these posts this server supports you as a respected leader. Keep pushin on and don't let one bad raid influence your willingness to lead the community back in to the jello. :-)
BTW, technically this wasn't a failed raid. There was no pile of bodies in a sea of yellow death like the old days. We could go back tonight and finish the job. :-)
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Don't name-drop me. In my opinion, from what I've gathered from not bein' there, which is scant information, the only factor that was drastically different from nearly all our prior raids, and I'll be the one to say it, was the fact that you were there, Felecia, doin' your own thing.|
Originally Posted by Felecia_Divine
I am not trying to be condescending here, just offering advice,
The problem was not other people. I suggest you get advice from Amygdala, Cobalt Azurean, and Steel Brigade on how they do it successfully. |
Try actually doin' somethin' for and with the community proper before tellin' us that you're doin' somethin' for the community.
Be a team player.
And, while I'm on the topic, get off your high horse.
Thanks for comin' out.
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
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Originally Posted by CriticalKat
Just have an open mind to everything you think could have went wrong and learn from the things that you had control over and let the things you didn't have control over go.
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Petey's first time on a raid.
First raid falure in a year.
Coincidence?
Not my fault. I think everything went downhill when it was revealed the pie was a lie.
Current favs: Champ: Frau Schmeterling-22 MM 50s: NOTW-Blaster, Cat-Girl Commando-corr, Queen of the Dawn-PB, NOTW-Def, Peterbilt-Brute, IcedTNA-Tank, Archilies-scrap, Mann Eater-stalk, Redemptive Soul-toller, Mt Fuji of A-Team-Tank, Hot Stuff Vale-Dom
My MiniCity
I have been sitting back watching this thread and not sure what to say but I will go ahead and put my 2 cents in.
Cherry has led quite a few raids very successfully. While we were short a few team leads there was still a large enough number of leaders such as Cherry, Fanged, Cowboy(Doom), Horus, Dazz, CL & Myself. We have all worked together well and done plenty of successful raids.
I will say the one thing i observed on my end was it appeared that a few people came in with a certain mentality of being instructed by someone else and when it came time to listen to their actually team leads they failed to follow the requests numerous times. And this can turn into quite the unraveling of a good thing very rapidly when you have a few key positions filled with said players. When walking into the hive I personally believe that everyone has VERY KEY roles that they plays and yes you can compensate for a small handful of people who are inexperienced with running something like this but when you also factor in the fact that there are others who are there out of selfish purposes and not willing to work together as one cohesive machine you can have the mess like we had last night on your hands. Its extremely hard to over compensate for such factors. No matter how hard you try.
I ran my 2nd one, this past sunday. Its alot of work and even that one had a VERY rocky start and we had to regroup a few times and hold for a few minutes while jobs were re-assigned. **** happens, it sucks, and you are bound to become embarrassed.
There were mistakes made. We learned from them and we move forward. I think the most important thing is to remember when you walk into that zone its all about team work. And at least myself take other peoples time very seriously and not even for myself hate to fail and feel its a waste of time but its also very disrespectful to everyone else who has shown up to do the task at hand, if you do not all walk in there with a certain level of respect for each other.
Ok, i did not read all the replies nor do i intend to. When i woke up this morning i realized i did not post a well phrased thought. So i expect most of the other posts were simple Anti-Felecia posts.
I saw Cherry giving instructions but when she DC'd all i saw was Retreat commands.
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What i should have said in my first post was:
Amygdala, Cobalt Azurean ( i called you guys out because as far as i know you have the most experience) and anyone else who has led Hami-Raids is there a faster, easier method of organizing such a large group and what do you do about stragglers (those who show up at the last minute)?
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I do not know if you guys were there or not, but everything seemed to take a long time, is this normal and unavoidable with a group that large?
Like i said, i was NOT trying to be condescending, i was just wondering if there is a way to make raids run more smoothly.
The game is 5 years old and there are many vets who have done many raids, i just hope some of the vets can share thier wisdom with us. We all could learn to improve.
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One thing you have to consider is that last nights raid was not a "scheduled" raid.|
Originally Posted by Felecia_Divine
Ok, i did not read all the replies nor do i intend to. When i woke up this morning i realized i did not post a well phrased thought. So i expect most of the other posts were simple Anti-Felecia posts.
I saw Cherry giving instructions but when she DC'd all i saw was Retreat commands. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What i should have said in my first post was: Amygdala, Cobalt Azurean ( i called you guys out because as far as i know you have the most experience) and anyone else who has led Hami-Raids is there a faster, easier method of organizing such a large group and what do you do about stragglers (those who show up at the last minute)? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not know if you guys were there or not, but everything seemed to take a long time, is this normal and unavoidable with a group that large? Like i said, i was NOT trying to be condescending, i was just wondering if there is a way to make raids run more smoothly. The game is 5 years old and there are many vets who have done many raids, i just hope some of the vets can share thier wisdom with us. We all could learn to improve. |
It was decided recently that those of us who have been leading them would attempt to start running impromptu raids during the week to open up other opportunities for others to come to the raid who havent had the ablity to attend on the sunday raids. With this in mind... there are alot of "normal attendees" that will more than likely not show up. Therefore it makes things a bit longer to form based up the fact that on sunday raids people show up 30-45 mins early just to get a spot in the hive. That sort of thig does not happen on impromptu raids. The previous impromptu raid we ran a month or so ago was also a little slower forming than normal because it takes longer for word of mouth to get around as opposed to a scheduled weekly raid thats understood as an event. Sorry so long winded but hope this helps clear some stuff up.
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If you've got the stones to call people out to the carpet, shouldn't you also have the stones to read the responses? It's not like there was a ton of them. Why should anyone read any of your posts if you don't do the same courtesy and read theirs?| Ok, i did not read all the replies nor do i intend to. |
Or better yet, think before you spew.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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I was thinkin the same exact thing
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If you've got the stones to call people out to the carpet, shouldn't you also have the stones to read the responses? It's not like there was a ton of them. Why should anyone read any of your posts if you don't do the same courtesy and read theirs?
Or better yet, think before you spew. |
It was an ad hoc raid, surprised we actually got it going. Not really surprised we failed. Upset; yes. Surprised no.
And I will attribute this to one major thing: too many rookies on yellow taunt.
And one minor thing: too slow on the call for spike.
Last red side raid we did failed because of the too many rookies on yellow taunt. I think it was 4:2 rookies to vet. And tried as I might, there were too many questions not being asked and we abandoned on wave 2. Same as last night. Red side we dont have the problem of gather for buff unless we are using Bio Nukes, but on the first wave last night, the rookies were not in the main blob of people on Saferock, and 2 of the 3 rookies missed the RA buffs. That is a major no-no because with the RA buffs you dont need a EoE for 90 second. Considering it was 8 monsters to spawn, we were a bit EoE tapped at the get go.
The slow call for spike is a blue side thing related to the RA buffs. The RA buffs are nice for the yellow taunt but essential for yellow spike since they arent using EoEs. Once the RA fades (around the end of #3/start of #4) is where most assualts falter. With enough momentum, the yellow spike can push through to the end, but if its going slow, yellow spike will falter and we will wipe. The slow call for spike was related to rookie yellow taunters as too much time was wasted getting in position, and then more time went past before the spike was called. IMHO, its Hami taunt in (3-5seconds), yellow taunt (3-5s), then assualt teams. 6-10seconds from Hami taunt to assualt call. We were sitting around 30 seconds last night (gb Herostats overlay). With that much delay the RA buffs were falling around #2/#3 instead of #3/#4. And it makes a world of difference.
One other tactical nit was the positioning of vets to rookies. Cherry placed herself on #5 and #6, me on #4, and rookies on 1-3. See the problem. All the experience was on one side of the blob. My suggestions (after the fact) were to either place me on #1 and rookies on 2-4 so I could tail along covering if one of them falters or to place me on #2 for the same reason, I could watch #1, then tail along 3-4.
None of the abover really serious mistakes/problems on thier own, but together added in with some connectivity issues and you've got a furball.
Live and learn. Given what we had, Cherry and the other leaders did a fine job.
(No I didnt mention the lack of control/holds once we got through the second wave of yellows because people were bailing already. We had enough for the first wave, but the wipes on the second wave coupled with certain people's doomsaying drove off what we needed. That is not the fault of the leadership of the raid.)
Net the greybeard
Tanker Tuesday #72 Oct 5 @Champion
"I am not sure if my portrayal of being insane is accurate, but damn its fun all the same."
Felicia, you were useless during the raid.
All you did was put me on follow (Fire Retarded), spam your heals (auto-heal ftw?), and fail to TP out the team of the bloom when called upon. Nicely done.
That is all I'll say....
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I need to run some raids again cuz you guys are spoiled. I tell my yellow taunters, "target through me, see that yellow blog I have targetted, that is your mito, have fun.". All this sophisticated numbering of the mitos would make my head hurt, especially being I can't find my way to saferock once I leave it.
| One other tactical nit was the positioning of vets to rookies. Cherry placed herself on #5 and #6, me on #4, and rookies on 1-3. See the problem. All the experience was on one side of the blob. My suggestions (after the fact) were to either place me on #1 and rookies on 2-4 so I could tail along covering if one of them falters or to place me on #2 for the same reason, I could watch #1, then tail along 3-4. |
The number is just the relative position of the mito. #1 is the first yellow targeted by the spike, #2 the second. Its not very sophisticated. It just gives you an idea of how long youll have to be taunting before the spike catches up.
Tanker Tuesday #72 Oct 5 @Champion
"I am not sure if my portrayal of being insane is accurate, but damn its fun all the same."
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We assign targets the same way that you described, by targetting them first and having the Tank target through the team leader. We only use numbers 1-6 as a reference mostly between leaders on Vent, which simply refers to the order the yellows are attacked/defeated. This makes it easy to call out any stray aggro. |
Originally Posted by CriticalKat
I need to run some raids again cuz you guys are spoiled. I tell my yellow taunters, "target through me, see that yellow blog I have targetted, that is your mito, have fun.". All this sophisticated numbering of the mitos would make my head hurt, especially being I can't find my way to saferock once I leave it.
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| Cherry placed herself on #5 and #6, me on #4, and rookies on 1-3. See the problem. All the experience was on one side of the blob. My suggestions (after the fact) were to either place me on #1 and rookies on 2-4 so I could tail along covering if one of them falters or to place me on #2 for the same reason, I could watch #1, then tail along 3-4. |
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| I think the most important thing is to remember when you walk into that zone its all about team work. |
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| Ok, i did not read all the replies nor do i intend to. |
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
putting you on # 3 was a better idea, imo. Which, was my plan at the 2nd retreat. We never went back. That was lack of experience on my part. ( it was even mentioned in team chat i was going to reassign mitos)
I have been taught, and it's very common blue side, to have the people with the less hami exp to be on the 1st couple mitos due to how quickly they go down (insert joke here..). Its preferred to keep the vets in longer, for obvious reasons.
Do i believe this to be a major reason for failure? no
Do i believe the time delay in calling spikes to be a minor reason for failure? no
Do i believe it added to the over-all issues? Yes
And yes, my connectivity issues sucked, but it wasnt something that should have created a huge disaster.
It started as a domino effect... and it was started long before we even got to the jello in the 1st place... Not everyone was privvy to the issues at hand, those of us on vent (the leaders) were.
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This wasnt the 1st raid of this type, the 1st 1 went swimmingly well. Given who we had in zone lastnight, the balance of the at's (not exp) we should have owned hami lastnight. All of us leaders had remarked how awesome it was to see the balance we had. Im astonished given the sheer nature of the at's we had, that it ended so badly... which further illustrates my feeling that people came into the hami without the best of intentions.
| It was an ad hoc raid, surprised we actually got it going. Not really surprised we failed. Upset; yes. Surprised no. |
...WoW...
Spike was delayed because yellow taunt was not... point blank... you can't just say a 3 to 5 sec for everything.. there are toooooo many factors that can go wrong...
I've figured out some stuff about the Red Raids failing tho... yellow taunt positioning is everything, I understand now why we start dieing on the 3rd mito...
Also, if you do not like the way we run the raids by all means step up and lead one... We do it the way we do it because it works. BUT spoiler alert.. We do however have new tricks planned for the new year...
This does call to mind something quite funny, however. I remember being a witness to Felicia's former owner's first attempt at the new Hamidon. It was an interesting and entertaining gala of dying toons.