State of the Game : My view
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2009-11-06 18:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Decent post. This was my favorite part:
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Couldn't have said it any better myself. That's why *I* play this game.
| I though MMOs were GAMES not WORK!!!! |
State of the game: Still CoH...still profitable.
I would rather work towards awesomeness in a game, than slave for some ********* at a job I hate.
but thats just me 
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Sounds about right, it has never changed from a game to a doom slavery work machine as far as I knew.
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Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
State of the game: Still CoH...still profitable.
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Safeguards are effin' boring compared to Mayhems. Even if the badges inside didn't count for accolades I'd still do Mayhems, but after getting my jetpack at level 5 I never bother with another Safeguard again since you can still get new contacts the old way.|
Originally Posted by stark_NA
- Example: Why is the hero police radio "protect the bank from robbery" mission almost identical to the villain version? I know the villain version is AWESOME but the hero version... it just lacks something: like it was a "well, we gave this to the villains so we have to give something equivalent to the heros" and it was just given the bare minimum.... Wouldn't it be cooler if the villains robbed a bank and the hero "equivalent" was something hero-ish: like, invade a villain base or something like that? Assault the rogue isles and take out a villain base maybe? In other words, my main complaint about the game would be:
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Originally Posted by stark_NA
Why is it (almost 100%) "heros get one, villains get one" lineup when new changes are announced? Why not something that villains get and heroes don't get at all? Why isn't it something where villains get apples and heroes get oranges and you can't compare the two because they're so different?
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Maybe we'll get some more Mayhem-ish missions in GR? Like we have a Praetorian base to trash?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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How is protecting the city less heroic than raiding a villain base (which we do on a regular basis anyway)?|
Originally Posted by stark_NA
Wouldn't it be cooler if the villains robbed a bank and the hero "equivalent" was something hero-ish: like, invade a villain base or something like that? Assault the rogue isles and take out a villain base maybe?
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| Why is it (almost 100%) "heros get one, villains get one" lineup when new changes are announced? Why not something that villains get and heroes don't get at all? Why isn't it something where villains get apples and heroes get oranges and you can't compare the two because they're so different? The black market's the same, the university's the same, the power prolifieration was right down the middle.... At least the epic archetypes are different, but there's only a modicum of difference for the patron powers. I LIKE it, hell, I LOOK FORWARD to it when content ISN'T UNIVERSAL. It makes it less repetitive when I'm bringing up a new character and I want to do that MORE! |
I'm not saying exact parity is a great idea, but I know where they're coming from. And to be fair, that parity has led to some interesting storytelling opportunities, like the Mender Silos TF, that crosses over between sides. Even so, I'm still holding out for a new villain-exclusive zone myself.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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After GR they might loosen the rope a bit and come out with more Hero/Villain releases that don't seem like different sides of the same purple lollipop. The only supers locked out of it would be those who chose to stay locked out and they would have their own ball to play with.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
How is protecting the city less heroic than raiding a villain base (which we do on a regular basis anyway)?
Because keeping both sides of the game happy is far more profitable. I take it you weren't here for the I7/I8 debacle. I7 was heavily delayed, and included nothing but villain content. Heroes complained, and so I8 came out with a deliberately heavy hero slant. Then villains started complaining. Historians now call this era "The Great Headache". I'm not saying exact parity is a great idea, but I know where they're coming from. And to be fair, that parity has led to some interesting storytelling opportunities, like the Mender Silos TF, that crosses over between sides. Even so, I'm still holding out for a new villain-exclusive zone myself. |
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Because you know the Rogue Isles better. I mostly play blue-side. When I play a villain, I often have to ask teammates for the fastest route to a mission in a different zone. Why is there a ferry AND a helicopter???????
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Originally Posted by stark_NA
- Why is it so annoying to get around in Paragon City? I haven't played my heroes for a while and loaded up and... well, it's so ridiculously easy to get around in the rogue isles that I almost NEVER use my mission teleporter power. In paragon city, well, it's kind of annoying. Why are there two unconnected subway systems??????
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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This!
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Why is there a ferry AND a helicopter???????
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Bah, you are just jealous that we have a cool helicopter to fly in, instead of those trains that do not even stop at every zone.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Because you know the Rogue Isles better. I mostly play blue-side. When I play a villain, I often have to ask teammates for the fastest route to a mission in a different zone. Why is there a ferry AND a helicopter???????
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But seriously. Red side has less zones and every normal zone can be reached in 2 hops. So it is much easier to travel. On the hero side you need Ourosbouros, Pocket D, Vanguard shortcuts and Superbases to travle conveniently from zone to zone. Imagine having to move from PI to say Galaxy wtthout any of those to help out.
And lets not even start about those trial zones. From the Chantry to Boomtown?
On the red side, those shortcuts are not as needed because every zone is two easy hops away.
I am Techbot Alpha.
I approve of this approval.
To CityOf, and a bright future!
('course, that might be because of all the stuff I've set fire too...hey, what'd ya expect? I'm EVIL!)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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PI -> Talos -> Steel Canyon/Skyway City -> Galaxy. Three hops. That's not egregiously more than villainside. The Chantry -> Boomtown example is questionable (I just don't know if that's a real example or not), though FBZ -> FF (Quaterfield) is only three as well.|
Originally Posted by GrinningSpade
Bah, you are just jealous that we have a cool helicopter to fly in, instead of those trains that do not even stop at every zone.
But seriously. Red side has less zones and every normal zone can be reached in 2 hops. So it is much easier to travel. On the hero side you need Ourosbouros, Pocket D, Vanguard shortcuts and Superbases to travle conveniently from zone to zone. Imagine having to move from PI to say Galaxy wtthout any of those to help out. And lets not even start about those trial zones. From the Chantry to Boomtown? On the red side, those shortcuts are not as needed because every zone is two easy hops away. |
Also: Why are shortcuts a bad thing?
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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PI -> SG base -> Galaxy
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
PI -> Talos -> Steel Canyon/Skyway City -> Galaxy. Three hops. That's not egregiously more than villainside. The Chantry -> Boomtown example is questionable (I just don't know if that's a real example or not), though FBZ -> FF (Quaterfield) is only three as well.
Also: Why are shortcuts a bad thing? |
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We were talking sans any kind of shortcut, though like I was getting at, I'm not sure why that's an issue (or why the trams don't count).
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Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
PI -> SG base -> Galaxy
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Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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See, this is one of the key reasons why I LOVE City of Heroes. I just love the art and the style. I've learned the same lesson time and time again - for a game to look good, you need not just good graphics, but capable artists, too. Our game may be thousands of years old by now, but DAMN if I don't love the art on environments, enemies, powers and even my own costumes. And I lay that squarely on the shoulders of BABs and Sexy Jay. Even without the Unreal engine or without the Crytek engine, these guys and their minions have made the game look GRRRRRRATE! I've tried a lot of other games, and it just always bugs me when I see stilted animations or ugly characters. Throwing shiny filters onto bad design does not make it better.|
Originally Posted by stark_NA
- The fortune teller power (magic theme expansion pack) is freakin' beautiful. I love the graphics, I love the art, and I want more like that. Well, that's kind of the point I wanted to make: I really like most of the past 2 years' worth of art. I think perhaps the devs were taking advantage of increased computer performance, but I don't _care_ why: I just like it. This is echoed in things like the vanguard and most of the other new things added. Bravo!
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I stand by City of Heroes as some of the best art and style I've seen pretty much at all.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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...but imagine what their art would look like on the Unreal or Crytek engines? What? Im just sayin.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
See, this is one of the key reasons why I LOVE City of Heroes. I just love the art and the style. I've learned the same lesson time and time again - for a game to look good, you need not just good graphics, but capable artists, too. Our game may be thousands of years old by now, but DAMN if I don't love the art on environments, enemies, powers and even my own costumes. And I lay that squarely on the shoulders of BABs and Sexy Jay. Even without the Unreal engine or without the Crytek engine, these guys and their minions have made the game look GRRRRRRATE! I've tried a lot of other games, and it just always bugs me when I see stilted animations or ugly characters. Throwing shiny filters onto bad design does not make it better.
I stand by City of Heroes as some of the best art and style I've seen pretty much at all. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Actually, there's something of a trend I've seen in recent gaming ("recent" extending back into the 90s, to note), and that's that as the level of detail and refinement on games increases, the amount of content in a game decreases almost proportionally. For instance, the old original Half-Life game was HUGE, but its levels were so simple that even someone as untalented as me could create decent work with their editor. Not a whole game, mind you, but the level of detail just wasn't that high. Half-Life 2, on the other hand, is actually pretty short, but much more detailed.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
...but imagine what their art would look like on the Unreal or Crytek engines? What? Im just sayin.
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Old Fallout to new Fallout is an even more drastic comparison. The old Fallout's graphics were only a step above rudimentary (seriously, even for their time), but the game was simply colossal in terms of content and things to do. You had basically half a continent to explore and entire cities in every location. Fallout 2 was even more massive, but shared about the same engine. Fallout 3... Not so much. You had only a small area near Washington DC, every "town" you visited was just a few buildings, and even the missions and activities the game offered were very limited. And that's WITH massive reusing of content. Damn those metro tunnels!
As games become more and more detailed, working on them becomes more expensive and time consuming, and I don't believe game developers are quite matching that with increased investments, so the net result is games becoming shorter and smaller. Once upon a time, a Baldur's Gate style RPG could last you for several weeks. These days, you'd be lucky for an RPG to last you several days. As good of a game as Knights of the Old Republic may have been, it just wasn't nearly as big as something like Fallout, Baldur's Gate or even Arcanum.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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and fewer resources are available for everything that isn't graphics.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
As games become more and more detailed, working on them becomes more expensive and time consuming.....
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I like graphics just fine, but using your example I'd much rather take Half Life with me to a desert island than Half Life 2.
I enjoyed them both, but for me the lengthy, in-depth storytelling of HL trumps the more immersive visual experience of HL2.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Granted, over-focusing on graphics to the exclusion of everything else is a bad idea, but I don't think Half-Life is a good example of that. Both the original Half-Life and Half-Life 2 were mostly about running around with only a few key events happening. Half-Life 2 is just significantly shorter and with more length to each segment, making it feel less diverse. Now, Half-Life 2 plus its episodes, that's a different story.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
and fewer resources are available for everything that isn't graphics.
I like graphics just fine, but using your example I'd much rather take Half Life with me to a desert island than Half Life 2. I enjoyed them both, but for me the lengthy, in-depth storytelling of HL trumps the more immersive visual experience of HL2. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This is why I basically considered it a plague when a lot of long-running game series and developers started switching to 3d in the nineties. 'X Game, now in 3D! Okay, so you can't do some of the stuff you could before since we can't figure out how to make it look good in 3d, and other things just look kind of silly since it was a lot easier to make 2d animations for them, and you have to worry about wonky camera angles now, and we kind of skimped on the story this time around to shift some resources to the art department, but isn't it neat?!!!!' Heck, it's probably only within the past 5 years that they started surpassing Chrono Trigger as far as what they can represent.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Actually, there's something of a trend I've seen in recent gaming ("recent" extending back into the 90s, to note), and that's that as the level of detail and refinement on games increases, the amount of content in a game decreases almost proportionally. For instance, the old original Half-Life game was HUGE, but its levels were so simple that even someone as untalented as me could create decent work with their editor. Not a whole game, mind you, but the level of detail just wasn't that high. Half-Life 2, on the other hand, is actually pretty short, but much more detailed.
Old Fallout to new Fallout is an even more drastic comparison. The old Fallout's graphics were only a step above rudimentary (seriously, even for their time), but the game was simply colossal in terms of content and things to do. You had basically half a continent to explore and entire cities in every location. Fallout 2 was even more massive, but shared about the same engine. Fallout 3... Not so much. You had only a small area near Washington DC, every "town" you visited was just a few buildings, and even the missions and activities the game offered were very limited. And that's WITH massive reusing of content. Damn those metro tunnels! As games become more and more detailed, working on them becomes more expensive and time consuming, and I don't believe game developers are quite matching that with increased investments, so the net result is games becoming shorter and smaller. Once upon a time, a Baldur's Gate style RPG could last you for several weeks. These days, you'd be lucky for an RPG to last you several days. As good of a game as Knights of the Old Republic may have been, it just wasn't nearly as big as something like Fallout, Baldur's Gate or even Arcanum. |
</tangent>
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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This is why I still own a lot of old PS1 games. They looked blocky, and by todays standards the graphics are laughable.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Actually, there's something of a trend I've seen in recent gaming ("recent" extending back into the 90s, to note), and that's that as the level of detail and refinement on games increases, the amount of content in a game decreases almost proportionally. For instance, the old original Half-Life game was HUGE, but its levels were so simple that even someone as untalented as me could create decent work with their editor. Not a whole game, mind you, but the level of detail just wasn't that high. Half-Life 2, on the other hand, is actually pretty short, but much more detailed.
Old Fallout to new Fallout is an even more drastic comparison. The old Fallout's graphics were only a step above rudimentary (seriously, even for their time), but the game was simply colossal in terms of content and things to do. You had basically half a continent to explore and entire cities in every location. Fallout 2 was even more massive, but shared about the same engine. Fallout 3... Not so much. You had only a small area near Washington DC, every "town" you visited was just a few buildings, and even the missions and activities the game offered were very limited. And that's WITH massive reusing of content. Damn those metro tunnels! As games become more and more detailed, working on them becomes more expensive and time consuming, and I don't believe game developers are quite matching that with increased investments, so the net result is games becoming shorter and smaller. Once upon a time, a Baldur's Gate style RPG could last you for several weeks. These days, you'd be lucky for an RPG to last you several days. As good of a game as Knights of the Old Republic may have been, it just wasn't nearly as big as something like Fallout, Baldur's Gate or even Arcanum. |
But the gameplay! Oh sweet gameplay, plot, quests, missions and FUN STUFF!
We live in an age of rip-off movie games, sequels and pointless, utter, drivel. I swear, the people who design movie-tied games should be lined up and shot for crimes against the industry and against fun itself. (Except for Batman: Arkham Asylum, and that wasn't really a movie tie-in. Although WB did have a credit note..hmm.)
There was an article once about games and the industry and stuff. It made a very good point. As soon as games become a 'franchise' and a 'product', you're doomed. You are doomed to damnation, hell and shoddy gameplay and lack of Fun.
A game is always tied to a story. Even sports games. Things like Gran Turismo are the story of you working your way to riches and better cars through your awesome (or not) skills. Football games are about winning the cup/cups/shiny stuff.
And games have to tell a good story, with good characters, meaty plot, development and, above all else, it has to be FUN.
I will use an example; Medievil, from Playstation. You played a dead hero, Sir Daniel Fortesque, who, allegedly, defeated the evil sorceror Zarok in a by-gone age. Except, actually, Dan was really just the Kings chum, who happened to tell good stories, and got shot through the eye during the first wave of the assault.
Zarok returns, plunging the land into darkness, awakening the dead and all kinds of creepy stuff. However, he also manages to resurect the now skeletal Dan, and thats where you come in.
The game looked good by the standards of the day. Its still not that bad now. And the controls were easy to use, the camera wasn't too nasty, there was humour and plenty to do and it was FUN.
There are games these days that make me ashamed as an animator(student) and gamer, that someone actually thought that it was ok to put something like that on the shelf. It makes me die a little inside, however sad that might seem.
...God, I do go on a bit, don't I?
oh well.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well for me it's blueside,I started on redside and got several 50's and know the content/zones by heart.Blueside is still new to me,I have 3-50's but I'm still doing new arcs,hell I just went into Striga Island 2 weeks ago for the first time and was totally blown away.
I made a WS who is my badger now and exploring all Paragon is very new,not too mention arcs that I have never done.So my view is that I've been playing for 34 months and I still don't know alot of it.I'd like to see more focus on some zones because they have such a good history yet nothing is done with them,my example would be Dark Astoria the history behind it is rather horrific and yet their is no tf for it.Which in my book would make a good story in itself.
Some areas need some attention/overhaul and some areas of the game need overhauling too(how I miss base raids).Now with GR on the rise I'm getting another large area/content/powers to contend with.So much to do,graphics are good,and a caring dev community you can't go wrong.
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Because Villain Ouro portals don't go to mercy. They drop you as low as Cap. From there you can use the Port Oakes ferry then the Mercy Ferry, OR you can jump the Heli and go straight to Mercy(That's the best I could come up with) from Cap. I can't come up with anything for the one in Nerva. Nor can I figure out why that one is so close to the ferry that takes you to the same zones.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Because you know the Rogue Isles better. I mostly play blue-side. When I play a villain, I often have to ask teammates for the fastest route to a mission in a different zone. Why is there a ferry AND a helicopter???????
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"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
OK, I generally read the Dev Digest (and pretty much nothing else: I'd rather play than talk about playing, but while I'm waiting for a build, I'll read to pass the time) but I wanted to post something after reading the Massively article.
Specifically, I want more CoV content. I know most people play CoH and not CoV, but CoV is more fun so I want more in CoV 
I really really enjoy CoX. Well, CoV more than CoH, but that's not the point. I played CoH from shortly after release, through my first 50, and then took a break when all my friends went to WoW. I went with them, and I did the game with elves up to level max and tried a bit of raiding and I'm done with that. No more elves for me!
And then CoV came out, and I went back to CoX and I've been here ever since.
I tried Auto Assault for a bit but it didn't pull me in. (I LOVED the concept, HATED the steering. I want an NFS: Porsche Unleashed/Porsche 2000 feel to a car MMO. Hell, I just want that feel to any racing game: that game was the peak of driving games to me.)
I went to Champions OnLine, got the beta and played it and was hugely disappointed: sure it was prettier, sure the character (CoX character generator v1.5 as I like to call it: 1.5, NOT 2.0.) was cool, but that has NOTHING to do with game play/story/immersion! And with Champions, gameplay/story/immersion just left me feeling empty. I ebay'd my license once the game went live and came back to CoX.
I tried Fallen Earth and, well, that game looks freakin' cool. But you need to have friends in an MMO and my friends were happy with CoX, so back to CoX I came.
So, from my perspective it's obvious: CoX is what I want, and I think the devs have done an AWESOME job. But that doesn't mean it's perfect or that there's no room for improvement. So I just wanted to give a "THANK YOU" to the devs and give my impressions. Agree or disagree, I just wanted to share
Technical:
- The game's graphics are fine. I run at 1920x1200 with all the dials maxed out (and I'm sure I'll have to tweak that with the GR graphics enhancements) but it's a 6 year old game, what the heck did you expect?
- The Mac client, well, it sucks. Not because of performance (about 85% of Windows in my experience) or because of stability (fine, never had a crash) but because the keyboard controls were all wrong and I can't bend my thumb that way. boo! Fine, though, because I'll just bootcamp into Vista64 and play there
Art:
- The fortune teller power (magic theme expansion pack) is freakin' beautiful. I love the graphics, I love the art, and I want more like that. Well, that's kind of the point I wanted to make: I really like most of the past 2 years' worth of art. I think perhaps the devs were taking advantage of increased computer performance, but I don't _care_ why: I just like it. This is echoed in things like the vanguard and most of the other new things added. Bravo!
- Some of the old art, well, I wish that it was possible somehow to make hi-res versions of all the characters and replace the old ones. I know EQ did this with some VERY bad results, so perhaps instead of replacing the old ones, new ones could be added: make a new character model (female/male/huge/hi-res male kind of thing) and do it there or something: make a way for those of us with high end computers to USE the power.
Nerfing
- First, I don't play PvP. CoV has never really been a PvP stronghold (for various reasons) and I never minded. I go into PvP zones to get badges and nuklear missiles, and that's about it
- I have ZERO tolerance for people who complain about "nerfing" in this game. CoV is one of the easiest games in the world to play. Really. It's easy enough that anyone who's complaining about nerfing is both a whiner and REALLY bad at the game.
Zones
- Why is it so annoying to get around in Paragon City? I haven't played my heroes for a while and loaded up and... well, it's so ridiculously easy to get around in the rogue isles that I almost NEVER use my mission teleporter power. In paragon city, well, it's kind of annoying. Why are there two unconnected subway systems??????
- I really love how the zones work. people walk by talking about things that somehow are relevant, maps that look great and make sense.... awesome.
Story
- OK, this is why the game rocks: there's SO MUCH content! The game's so easy that you can really get into the stories without worrying about getting that last piece of fire resist to do molten core just the right way (WTF???? I though MMOs were GAMES not WORK!!!!) I love the stories, and I can see why people who aren't into the story might not enjoy things as much as I do, but, if that's the case, go play another game and have fun, why are you ******** about it here????
- More, please
OK, I think that's the main things I wanted to mention. I know this was almost zero content (I'm not trying to prepare an argument or a debate, I just wanted to speak up a bit as a voice of someone who's enjoying the game)
Oh, one more.
My one complaint:
- Example: Why is the hero police radio "protect the bank from robbery" mission almost identical to the villain version? I know the villain version is AWESOME but the hero version... it just lacks something: like it was a "well, we gave this to the villains so we have to give something equivalent to the heros" and it was just given the bare minimum.... Wouldn't it be cooler if the villains robbed a bank and the hero "equivalent" was something hero-ish: like, invade a villain base or something like that? Assault the rogue isles and take out a villain base maybe? In other words, my main complaint about the game would be:
Why is it (almost 100%) "heros get one, villains get one" lineup when new changes are announced? Why not something that villains get and heroes don't get at all? Why isn't it something where villains get apples and heroes get oranges and you can't compare the two because they're so different? The black market's the same, the university's the same, the power prolifieration was right down the middle.... At least the epic archetypes are different, but there's only a modicum of difference for the patron powers. I LIKE it, hell, I LOOK FORWARD to it when content ISN'T UNIVERSAL. It makes it less repetitive when I'm bringing up a new character and I want to do that MORE!
To further that: I want to have missions that only blasters can do. arcs, contacts, the whole lot.
And similarly, missions/arcs/contacts for magic origin that aren't available to tech origin. This means i can play the game over and over again with less "repetitive" feeling. The patron arcs at the end of CoV are perfect examples: I chose different ones the first times through because I wanted to play the arcs, I didn't CARE about the powers (well, that much) that they came with
Anyways, have a good weekend everyone. Time to head home into the SoCal rush hour traffic