Paragon & Praetoria - D&D Alignments?
Very fast threadjack: 4e alignment system is one of my main gripes with it (admittedly, I have very few gripes with 4e).
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
Seems about right to me. Love it.
Rogues and Vigilantes seem to be Chaotic Neutral to me. It may vary by the individual.
My heroes are all Chaotic Good. Both brutes are Chaotic Neutral.
I just like Chaotic characters.
EDIT: Superman is the one who should be lawful good. How is it Batman? IMO, he is either Neutral or Chaotic.
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
I would say that Rogues and Vigilanties are all some flavour of Neutral, even if they are just passing through onto the other side. Exact flavour would probably vary wildly.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
I disagree. Arachnos and the Rogue Island Villains come across to me as more Lawful Evil than Chaotic Evil. There are some individual villains and some of the minor groups that are clearly Chaotic Evil but overall Arachnos and Lord Recluse seem to be Lawful Evil.
No way, Arachnos and Recluse SUPPORT chaos amongst their ranks. Note "Darwin's Landing". The entire ORGANIZATION is based on the chaotic notion of dog eat dog and survival of the fittest.
Maybe somewhere between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil, then.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
Yeah, I don't see Chaotic Evil for Arachnos. Arachnos is too organized, too structured.
Chaotic Evil is an alignment that doesn't really work well in large groups.
Arachnos is all about the strong ruling the weal, the survival of the fittest, etc. And Lord Recluse sees himself as the strongest and the fittest. I would classify him as more of the Lawful Evil type. This is where you get the majority of your brutal dictator types.
Chaotic Evil is more for the psychopaths who kill for pleasure. More like Mako.
Arachnos as a whole is all about Lord Recluse's vision for it, and thus it's going to have his alignment all over it.
But there's another element in there. There is a little bit of leeway for personal freedom, especially for the Destined One(s) who are strong enough to grab it.
Or for the cunning ones who can steal it. The inherent corruption in any system is what gives that little taint of Chaos. Despite the rigid structure and iron-clad discipline of the Arachnos troops, the Rogue Isles are still a place where any vice can be sated, for the right price. If you know where to look.
That's why I'd say:
Arachnos, Lord Recluse: Lawful Evil.
The Rogue Isles (with Arachnos' heavy hand upon them): Nuetral Evil.
Darn. There goes my dichotomy.
Cole's empire strikes me as Lawful Neutral, as described here. It seems to be purely utilitarian - they seek to impose what they perceive to be the greater good no matter what the human cost.
They're not evil, because they aim to achieve good ends. They might even be considered some extreme form of Lawful Good, except their methods are unethical.
I would certainly consider most parts of Arachnos to be Lawful Evil, with the odd chaotic member thrown in here and there.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
Cole's empire strikes me as Lawful Neutral, as described here. It seems to be purely utilitarian - they seek to impose what they perceive to be the greater good no matter what the human cost.
|
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
So this Paladin pulls his car into the mechanic's shop.
"What seems to be the problem, pal?" the mechanic asks.
"It's my car's steering!" The Paladin cried out. "It keeps swerving at the most inopportune moments! It swerves to hit old ladies, it runs over every squirrel that dares even get as close to the road as the sidewalk! Why, two days ago it even went completely out of my control, drove into a consecrated cemetary and started doing donuts! You have to help me! These people think I am the one doing these heinous things!"
"Okay, okay," the mechanic said, crawling under the car. "Don't get your plate mail undies in a twist."
The mechanic examined the car for a few minutes then rolled back out from under it.
"Well, I think I found your problem... Your car's out of alignment."
My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw
Is it bad that I laughed uprouriously at such a terrible pun?
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
Wait... that's not utilitarianism. Utilitarianism defines what the greater good is as whatever has the least human cost. That is very different from having an abstract view of the greater good, then sacrificing people to enforce it.
|
Cole has achieved through force an apparent utopia where there is no crime or poverty - that represents, if you define it narrowly, a substantial reduction in human cost. To do it, he is sacrificing a small minority of the population - specifically super powered beings that don't pass the recruitment (whatever that means), and subjugating the rest through constant surveillance. Whether a pervasive surveillance state represents "human cost" is up for debate, but Cole has no doubt in his own view achieved the lowest human cost possible, regardless of the means.
Anyway, that's to frame Cole as a utilitarian. I think he still fits best in the D&D alignment system as Lawful Neutral, since his empire is based on rigid laws that aren't overtly evil.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
Very fast threadjack: 4e alignment system is one of my main gripes with it (admittedly, I have very few gripes with 4e).
|
Good: Freedom and kindness. Lawful Good: Civilization and order. Evil: Tyranny and hatred. Chaotic Evil: Entropy and destruction. Unaligned: Having no alignment; not taking a stand. |
As for the OP, I don't see it working like that. Mostly because my main "hero" eats humans. My main "villain" is doing nothing but getting recruits for the inevitable war against the evil creator of all existence. etc, etc.
Manticore seems chaotic good to me. Statesman seems lawful neutral. Recluse lawful evil. Mako chaotic evil. Rather bounces all over the place.
Be well, people of CoH.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
No way, Arachnos and Recluse SUPPORT chaos amongst their ranks. Note "Darwin's Landing". The entire ORGANIZATION is based on the chaotic notion of dog eat dog and survival of the fittest.
|
The Rogue Isles today are a land of opportunity for those with the ambition and villainy to seize the chances that come by. Lord Recluse tolerates the ambitions of others – to a point. Anyone willing to follow his laws, pay his “taxes” and accept his justice without question is welcome to Spider City. So long as you don’t threaten his plans, you can make schemes of your own. What does he care if a shipment of artifacts for the Circle of Thorns is stolen from the docks? Nothing – so long as the thieves are not so brash as to use them against Arachnos. If you can rob a bank and escape his security forces, then is it a good test of your skill – but rob too many banks, create too much havoc and the Wolfspiders will hunt you down. He tolerates ambition, but not anarchy. |
Manticore seems chaotic good to me. Statesman seems lawful neutral. Recluse lawful evil. Mako chaotic evil. Rather bounces all over the place.
|
I can't disagree more with Statesman. If Statesman had been Lawful Nuetral he would have become Tyrant in this world too. My guess is he is Nuetral Good. If he'd been Lawful Good he would have taken a more active role in government and been an "official" superhero who works for Law Enforcement.
Recluse himself is Chaotic Evil. The whole "survival of the fittest" thing is 100% chaotic evil. As far as "oh, but Arachnos is so organized", that argument doesn't hold water. Chaotic in this context does not mean "chaos" it means "the needs of the individual far outweigh the needs of the many". Think of Arachnos and then consider if one of their soldiers drank from the Well of the Furies and became just as powerful or even more powerful than Lord Recluse. If the soldier in question immediately started working their way up through the ranks using their new-found powers and stuck to the protocols involving such advancement then he would definitely be Lawful Evil. If, on the other hand, the Soldier killed everyone who had ever ticked him off then went gunning for Recluse himself so HE could run Arachnos, and (if successful) Arachnos ACCEPTED it, then we're talking a Chaotic Evil group of individuals.
The demons of old D&D lore were chaotic evil. They still functioned as a group, it's just that the less powerful beings were kept in line due to their fear of the more powerful ones.
I'd have to agree about Mako as well.
The most interesting person would likely be Scirroco. He was cursed into all his actions ending up having evil consequences yet he yearns to be good. How would you characterize him? He's not really true Nuetral because he doesn't believe in balance. He can't be good because of his alliances. Hmmm...
My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw
I'd say Scirroco is either on the Neutral side of Neutral Evil, or the evil side of True Neutral, depending on who is writing him.
Actually, the more I think about it, True Neutral makes more sense.
@Morac | Twitter
Trust the computer. The computer knows all.
Scirroco is fascinating to me. I picked him as my patron for my level 50 Brute and ran all of his arcs. His story is tragic, beautiful, horrible, complex, and amazing to go through. I don't know where I would put him. I think his NATURE is actually Lawful Good, but his CURSE made him end up Lawful Evil. Either way, I see no chaos in his character.
I think Praetoria is between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil - it seems very organized, but it also has that "survival of the fittest" thing going on too.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Recluse himself is Chaotic Evil. The whole "survival of the fittest" thing is 100% chaotic evil. As far as "oh, but Arachnos is so organized", that argument doesn't hold water. Chaotic in this context does not mean "chaos" it means "the needs of the individual far outweigh the needs of the many". Think of Arachnos and then consider if one of their soldiers drank from the Well of the Furies and became just as powerful or even more powerful than Lord Recluse. If the soldier in question immediately started working their way up through the ranks using their new-found powers and stuck to the protocols involving such advancement then he would definitely be Lawful Evil. If, on the other hand, the Soldier killed everyone who had ever ticked him off then went gunning for Recluse himself so HE could run Arachnos, and (if successful) Arachnos ACCEPTED it, then we're talking a Chaotic Evil group of individuals.
|
Form the D20 SRD http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm
Originally Posted by Lawful Evil
A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
|
Originally Posted by Neutral Evil
A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesnt have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
|
Originally Posted by Chaotic Evil
A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
|
I think Praetoria is between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil - it seems very organized, but it also has that "survival of the fittest" thing going on too.
|
I'm sticking with Lawful Neutral.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
See, I don't see "Evil" as such in Praetoria. The society is clearly structured for the benefit of its population - it's just that the means they use to get there are pretty extreme.
I'm sticking with Lawful Neutral. |
(And as far as my prior apparently erroneous statements regarding Chaotic Evil... this is what I get for putting my 2 copper pieces in when I haven't played since 2nd Edition.)
My mind wanders so often you've probably seen its picture on milk cartons. - Me... the first person version of the third person Steelclaw
So I was driving along for work, normal business day. I have long drives, so a LOT of time to think about anything and everything. Perhaps too much time. Just then I realized that the Paragon and Praetorian groups all seem to fall into the classical D&D alignments. They are obviously mirror images of each other, but looking at what we know SO FAR about Going Rogue, I think I can safely put up this list and have it essentially accurate:
Paragon City
Heroes - Lawful Good
Villains - Chaotic Evil
Praetoria
Loyalists - Lawful Evil
Resistance - Chaotic Good
What do YOU think? Think that pretty much matches up, or do you disagree? And what potential other groups might be able to be made from the remaining alignments?
Talk amongst yourselves, I'm getting ferklempt!