Going Rogue and the Markets!?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2009-10-29 10:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Inspiration trading has already been green-lighted.
I support market integration for the redistribution of wealth from heroes to villains, as well as the glut of supply blue-side to red-side.
I also support raising the inf. cap. 
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Is not merging the markets been thought all the way through? How much hassle do the players have to suffer for a design paradigm?
|
The last "official" statement on market mergers was back during the 5th anniversary when Positron was answering questions ingame. He said a merger may happen at some point in the distant future when and if the amount of inf redside is comparable to what blueside has.
In the example he made he said if a villain can't afford something for 50 million he'll never be able to afford it for 200 million.
I believe he also mentioned it at Hero Con (and that it wouldn't be happening because your Vigilante/Rogue has to go 'home' to use the markets.)
Really, I see this as a move to chop of their nose to spite their faces and will reward negative actions (switching sides to manipulate the market) instead of gracefully figuring out a way to make it thematic instead of "NO! NEVER! CRUD! THEY'VE RUINED OUR ROLEPLAY WITH THEIR EXPLOITS! HAMMER TIME!"
In my opinion, they should merge the markets when Going Rogue goes live and just make a small Inf penalty to use your home market (10%) and the 'enemy' market (50%).
Vigilantes and Rogues can trade with anyone as long as they are in the right zones (ie. Non-PvP).
Still here, even after all this time!
Quote:
Thats the really important one, anyway.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Inspiration trading has already been green-lighted.
I support market integration for the redistribution of wealth from heroes to villains, as well as the glut of supply blue-side to red-side. I also support raising the inf. cap. |
There's an inf cap? Oo
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
What would be interesting if the market was changed to only use a Praetorian Currancy only. One that wasn't infamy or influence. There would be a money changer kiosk at wentworths or the blackmarket so you could exchange for the "global" currancy. An interesting idea would be to tie it into the happenings in RV. If the villians have control, infamy gets a better exchange rate than influence does. Just to make the markets...more painful and life-like than they are now.....
210 50s and still counting!
Quote:
With heroes being able to drag piles on inf with them if they go full bad this could start to level the inf field.
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The last "official" statement on market mergers was back during the 5th anniversary when Positron was answering questions ingame. He said a merger may happen at some point in the distant future when and if the amount of inf redside is comparable to what blueside has.
In the example he made he said if a villain can't afford something for 50 million he'll never be able to afford it for 200 million. |
Quote:
Yeah! Lucky for that smiley, boyo!|
Originally Posted by Charnage
What would be interesting if the market was changed to only use a Praetorian Currancy only. One that wasn't infamy or influence. There would be a money changer kiosk at wentworths or the blackmarket so you could exchange for the "global" currancy. An interesting idea would be to tie it into the happenings in RV. If the villians have control, infamy gets a better exchange rate than influence does. Just to make the markets...more painful and life-like than they are now.....
|
I'm talking about dealing with things that are going to make your switching sides a hassle and you want to add hassle!
Still here, even after all this time!
Quote:
2 bilion inf.
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Thats the really important one, anyway.
There's an inf cap? Oo |
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Quote:
The inf. cap is 2 billion. Besides the fact that I would just like to stop using the CH to store inf., I have seen a surprising number of PvP recipes sell at the cap in single sales. It makes me wonder how many are circumventing the market so as to exceed the cap. I have no problem with that, bar the part where the rest of us don't get to bid on them.
|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Thats the really important one, anyway.
There's an inf cap? Oo |
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Quote:
I understand Posi's reasoning. Personally I don't play villains because I don't like the zones, a feeling that other players share. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The last "official" statement on market mergers was back during the 5th anniversary when Positron was answering questions ingame. He said a merger may happen at some point in the distant future when and if the amount of inf redside is comparable to what blueside has.
In the example he made he said if a villain can't afford something for 50 million he'll never be able to afford it for 200 million. |
I really wish they would have added villain contacts in Paragon City and hero contacts in the Rouges to begin with. In fact I really don't know why they didn't revamp P.C. and R.I. using the same code as the co-op zones a long time ago.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Quote:
What, you mean bidding on IOs has ever been possible?|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
The inf. cap is 2 billion. Besides the fact that I would just like to stop using the CH to store inf., I have seen a surprising number of PvP recipes sell at the cap in single sales. It makes me wonder how many are circumventing the market so as to exceed the cap. I have no problem with that, bar the part where the rest of us don't get to bid on them.
|
There is a reason I tend to only think about IOs at lvl 50, and why I quickly lose interest in that, too.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
|
Quote:
But sir, I do mean the bit about at least having a new kind of currancy to go along with the new world. Have that Praetorian Dollar be equal to and usable by anyone. If a kiosk could be placed somewhere that would make sense...in a interdimensional way, then Oroboros or the Danceclub would be a good spot. |
Originally Posted by Futurias
Yeah! Lucky for that smiley, boyo!
I'm talking about dealing with things that are going to make your switching sides a hassle and you want to add hassle! |
I just thought that would be able to solve the overall problem. The biggest hurdle I could see would be to have people that are storing money on the BM or WW's to be able to get those funds off and traded for a new global currancy without breaking something in the game code.
The smiley was for tieing in the exchange rate to some kind of in game event.
How would a third currancy, one that "trumps" the other two, and allows for universal purchasing of goods on the markets a bad thing? If it would be possible. You could in theory hold 2 billion in influence, infamy, and "Praetorian Dollars" making your total worth approximately 6 billion.
Anyone think that would be a workable solution?
210 50s and still counting!
Quote:
If you mean "never," that's not what I said. A bid is incapable of exceeding 2 billion from within the market. If someone on Champion is selling something outside of the CH, I cannot bid on it from Virtue. If you have no interest in IOs, I think you are missing out on a lot of fun, but suit yourself. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
What, you mean bidding on IOs has ever been possible?
There is a reason I tend to only think about IOs at lvl 50, and why I quickly lose interest in that, too. |
Also, Charnage, with all due respect I think this game has too many different kinds of currency already.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
Quote:
I have to agree. Adding another 'super-influence' will just make things worse.|
Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
If you mean "never," that's not what I said. A bid is incapable of exceeding 2 billion from within the market. If someone on Champion is selling something outside of the CH, I cannot bid on it from Virtue. If you have no interest in IOs, I think you are missing out on a lot of fun, but suit yourself.
Also, Charnage, with all due respect I think this game has too many different kinds of currency already. |
Heck, I have some inflammatory stances on recipes. There are way too many and they are just adding database transactions. Compress them to a level-less (or maybe low and high level versions) and then let people's crafting level affect actually crafting them.
It would compress the market to about 1/20th the clutter on recipe sides.
Still here, even after all this time!
Quote:
Honestly, I'm hoping that is what we'll see happen.
|
Originally Posted by Mr. NoPants
With heroes being able to drag piles on inf with them if they go full bad this could start to level the inf field.
|
Quote:
Ditto. Question is, how long will that take, especially in light of the fact that more people have, are, and probably will always play heroes.
|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Honestly, I'm hoping that is what we'll see happen.
|
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
I don't understand how worried some people are about "manipulation" of the market by people bringing goods across faction lines. Given that side-switching is not going to be "flipping a switch", how prevalent will this sort of behavior be? Will it even come close to being able to affect the balance of supply and demand on either side? Even if it were practical, wouldn't it result in people bringing goods from the side with more supply to the one with less supply, driving down prices?
I have trouble understanding whether this sort of opinion is rooted in 1) a general dislike of the game motivating immersion-breaking behavior or 2) jealousy of the idea that other players less concerned with concept would potentially be able to make money this way.
Quote:
I don't. It doesn't make a damn bit of sense.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I understand Posi's reasoning.
|
Increasing the size of the market will make everyone better off. Heroes and villains. It will limit the ability to manipulate the markets. It will allow villain players access to a much larger source of goods and funds for the goods they sell.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Not only that, but the good stuff is, for the most part, more expensive Villainside.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't. It doesn't make a damn bit of sense.
Increasing the size of the market will make everyone better off. Heroes and villains. It will limit the ability to manipulate the markets. It will allow villain players access to a much larger source of goods and funds for the goods they sell. |
Smurphy posted this in this thread:
It's really bad below level 50. Villains have a horrible supply of pre-50 items.
It's been like this for a long time. The notion that Villains will suffer from a merger boggles my mind after playing both sides, and being able to outfit my heroes for less, and in less time.
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Quote:
Most people who make alarmist doom predictions about the markets tend to know nothing about the markets. |
Originally Posted by Liquid
It's been like this for a long time. The notion that Villains will suffer from a merger boggles my mind after playing both sides, and being able to outfit my heroes for less, and in less time.
|
Quote:
Because the Devs will knee-jerk react to the manipulation and probably mess it up for the Roleplayers.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I don't understand how worried some people are about "manipulation" of the market by people bringing goods across faction lines. Given that side-switching is not going to be "flipping a switch", how prevalent will this sort of behavior be? Will it even come close to being able to affect the balance of supply and demand on either side? Even if it were practical, wouldn't it result in people bringing goods from the side with more supply to the one with less supply, driving down prices?
I have trouble understanding whether this sort of opinion is rooted in 1) a general dislike of the game motivating immersion-breaking behavior or 2) jealousy of the idea that other players less concerned with concept would potentially be able to make money this way. |
And the way its being described *NOW* is already showing itself to be a pain for Vigilantes and Rogues. Adding in you probably can't trade at all until you fully switch sides and you are looking at a recipe for disaster.
Hence why I'm thinking about it now.
Still here, even after all this time!
Quote:
It will promote arbitrage behaviour. If a desirable IO is cheaper villain-side than hero-side, people will flip sides to get the cheaper enhancement, thus driving up the cost of that IO due to increased demand. If villain-side is poorer inf-wise, then this will potentially put the cost of those IOs out of reach for the vast majority of the market. They might come back to hero-side to sell the IO at a profit, potentially increasing supply, but I think the determined marketeer would be aiming to sell such items at a premium and therefore the prices probably wouldn't drop by much, if at all.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I don't understand how worried some people are about "manipulation" of the market by people bringing goods across faction lines. Given that side-switching is not going to be "flipping a switch", how prevalent will this sort of behavior be? Will it even come close to being able to affect the balance of supply and demand on either side? Even if it were practical, wouldn't it result in people bringing goods from the side with more supply to the one with less supply, driving down prices?
|
It may end up creating some parity in the market as items that can be traded profitably between the markets start to level out, but overall it is probably going to see prices rise (villain-side at least, but if more players flood into CoH/V with GoRo it will increase demand which in term will drive up prices).
The price rise will be highest among the rarest, most desirable items.
How easy or hard it is to switch sides isn't known.
Quote:
Hey UnSub, why do you think those rare, desirable items are cheaper Villainside?
|
Originally Posted by UnSub
It may end up creating some parity in the market as items that can be traded profitably between the markets start to level out, but overall it is probably going to see prices rise (villain-side at least, but if more players flood into CoH/V with GoRo it will increase demand which in term will drive up prices).
The price rise will be highest among the rarest, most desirable items. |
Please try my custom mission arcs!
Legacy of a Rogue (ID 459586, Entry for Dr. Aeon's Third Challenge)
Death for Dollars! (ID 1050)
Dr. Duplicate's Dastardly Dare (ID 1218)
Win the Past, Own the Future (ID 1429)
Quote:
Bolding mine. Honestly, it made no sense then, it makes less than no sense with GR on the horizon. For the people that can't get past RP on their heroes, the Devs could put a market interface in Striga. Just add another "Smuggler". |
Originally Posted by Liquid
Not only that, but the good stuff is, for the most part, more expensive Villainside.
Smurphy posted this in this thread: It's really bad below level 50. Villains have a horrible supply of pre-50 items. It's been like this for a long time. The notion that Villains will suffer from a merger boggles my mind after playing both sides, and being able to outfit my heroes for less, and in less time. |
I know, the market is blind, but...
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
So I happen to be home today, thinking and chatting with my friend that wanted to send Halloween salvage to his other toons. And I was explaining that you can't send between the sides because of the market.
Which got me wondering, with the new setup in Going Rogue, you will be able to eventually go from Hero -> Vigilante -> Villain. And Villain -> Rogue -> Hero again if you really wanted to.
I can see Influence and Infamy possibly not going fully to either side. But I can not see a logical reason for Salvage, Recipes and Enhancements to not.
People will just unload their Inf. onto a mule, load up on 'items' and then finish their switch. In fact, it is likely that they'll figure out how to time it so that they do it in as easy as possible way.
And keeping the markets separate is really only going to foster this sort of overt plans to switch back and forth.
So why go to all the effort to keep the markets separate? To reward people for breaking roleplay so they can maninpulate things?
Is there a really good reason to not merge the markets?
One thing I have not heard is about Vigilantes and Rogues trading anything to their 'un-trusted' side.
Are we going to run into situations where the Vigilante on the team can't give a villain an awaken in the last room after a team wipe to the corruptor with the rez power?
That's just being annoying. And I don't think they have the ability to differentiate between Inspirations and Salvage for trading. Or even enhancements.
So as far as I can tell, your Vigilante is going to be limited to function on your villain team (and more likely to have the problem of not being able to accept inspirations from his team, so stuck sucking the ground or zoning to a hospital.)
Is not merging the markets been thought all the way through? How much hassle do the players have to suffer for a design paradigm?
Still here, even after all this time!