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I always try to put myself between an ambush and teammates. This takes a view of the whole situation; odds are the ambush is coming in from behind.
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Originally Posted by Pure_Massacre
To each their own. I can remember multiple times that I have stopped teamwipes by being a "rogue male" and obliterating an ambush that caught the team unawares. And yes, I eat alphas whenever needed and survive. I am not saying that it is always wise for a scrapper to go all scrapperlock, but it isn't always the best move for a tanker to just play mother-hen. If a spawn dies, what does it really matter?
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<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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You are shrill and annoying.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Really.
Prove it. Only you can't. But I can quite easily state, and prove what I said. |
I'd really like it if you didn't hijack this thread with your shrillness.
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Hmm Case AND Point? Pretty impressive considering stalkers do more damage by using their inherant to crit 3 to 6 times more often, when on a full team, than a scrapper. That damage is not including the initial AS or start off attack with a gauranteed crit. Though, one attack every 10 seconds plus a bonus crit from placate every 30s (if they 3 slot lvl 50 IO's) works too.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Yes, multiple players on this forum do not like being told that they are bad players and outright dangerous for playing like idiots. Case in point, stalkers that try to land continuous and consistent melee damage rather than stalking.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
Controllers that try to play in scrapper range.
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Originally Posted by je_saist:2365927
At some point players have to be told what they are doing is wrong... and too many players honestly believe that there is nothing that can be done in the game that is wrong.
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Originally Posted by je_saist:2365927
I would have a very different viewpoint. I'd be asking why the Fire / Kin wasn't staying with the group and passing out SB and ID.
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Originally Posted by je_saist:2365927
And no, this isn't up for debate, so don't even try it. This is established fact, get over it.
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Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Im kind of surprised you all even entertain Je_Saists' particular brand of ignorance.
I look at being a Tank much like being a dad. You let your kids run around and do what they want, protecting them where you can, but giving them enough leeway to do and try things on their own. Very often they will succeed wildly with minimal effort on your part, which is fantastic. Sometimes, things will go terribly and horribly wrong, epic crash and burn, at which point you step in, clean up the mess, right the wrong, get them back on their feet and back to having fun.
I don't much care what the other people on my team do, unless they're exercising deliberate jackassery and sucking the fun out of things for everyone else. Beyond that, do as you will. Its all good in the end. I'm a Tank, I win.
�Life's hard. It's even harder when you're stupid.� ― John Wayne
�Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!� - George Carlin
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Originally Posted by Ultraamann
I'm a Tank, I win.
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qft.
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Well, there's two aspects to this. Firstly, the part about not being allowed to perform your role. Is "your role" too narrowly defined? I've seen tanks that insisted they be allowed to herd every single spawn regardless of the team composition or what the team wanted. They insisted it was the "right" way. Of course, this isn't unique to tanks. I've seen members of every AT who were stupid/incompetent/clueless/whatever.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
I understand your point of view, and I realize why leaving TFs is considered taboo. But at what point does a person have a right to leave if they're not having fun, and not being allowed to perform their role? That's a serious question, not a rhetorical one.
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Assuming you can adapt and are flexible in the definition of your role, and the rest of the team really does suck, I don't have an answer for you. This is because I've never had to deal with that situation. I don't do all-PuG TF's. I just don't. I do a ton of TF's but there will always be at least some people I know on the team. With that being the case, I will NEVER ditch a TF team.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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As always, the problem with sweeping generalizations like this is that they are guaranteed to be at least partly wrong. For example, I fought a stalker in PvP on my scrapper and it was a long, ugly fight. I eventually won, but this guy was built to go toe-to-toe in PvP. He could EASILY "land continuous and consistent melee damage rather than stalking". Of course, I guess in your narrow view of the game the real situation must be that I play a scrapper incompetently - because that stalker couldn't possibly fall outside of your 'right way to play'.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Yes, multiple players on this forum do not like being told that they are bad players and outright dangerous for playing like idiots. Case in point, stalkers that try to land continuous and consistent melee damage rather than stalking. Controllers that try to play in scrapper range. At some point players have to be told what they are doing is wrong... and too many players honestly believe that there is nothing that can be done in the game that is wrong.
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I would have a very different viewpoint. I'd be asking why the Fire / Kin wasn't staying with the group and passing out SB and ID. A team that is on crack and haz mez protection can plow through enemies a lot faster than a simple fire / kin leading on their own. And no, this isn't up for debate, so don't even try it. This is established fact, get over it. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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With all seriousness, I think you are taking the game too seriously. Seriously.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
I'm really just looking for general feedback on these situations, and how to deal with them when you don't have access to the Kick button. I love this game, and the kind of team infighting that occurs because of this stuff is really the only thing that causes me to enjoy it less. |
As soon as hear anyone talking about 'taking longer' to kill things, that's usually a big clue as to if the game is a job or a fun pastime.
I will fully endorse leaving a team when you are not having fun. I do it on PUGs when the need arises. TFs are a little trickier due to the way they work, but the fact remains I will not hang around if I am not having fun.
If you are not having fun on a particular team, just leave it. Forcing your view of how team should work is no better. You are just infringing on their fun.
I walk away immediately from any form of team drama. I am lucky in that I mostly team with RL friends, but I do not play this game to listen to others argue about who should go first.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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Try to be as proactive as possible. I've never quit a TF in progress, but I have quit before a few started if the team just doesn't seem to be jelling mentally. Some people still get greatly agitated with that, but they can easily replace you then.......they can't replace you once it is started. |
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
I understand your point of view, and I realize why leaving TFs is considered taboo. But at what point does a person have a right to leave if they're not having fun, and not being allowed to perform their role? That's a serious question, not a rhetorical one.
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No one wants to spend potentially hours with people they can't stand. I've done some of the Shard TFs back in the day on teams like that, and it was some of the most unpleasant experiences I've had in gaming. I still didn't quit even though these were seriously grating personalities because that would have potentially wasted hours for them......and as much as I didn't like them, that still wouldn't have been fair.
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Good point. Here's a question for the general readership, not aimed at a specific poster:|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
With all seriousness, I think you are taking the game too seriously. Seriously.
As soon as hear anyone talking about 'taking longer' to kill things, that's usually a big clue as to if the game is a job or a fun pastime. |
Which is more fun, saying "I win!" and instantly winning, or a two-hour movie where the hero perseveres through various trials and reverses, and finally rises, battered, and barely triumphs?
Note that we already know which is faster.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I appreciate the contributions from everyone.
I'd like to add that in all of the cases I listed in the OP, I did end up leaving without making drama. My policy is never to get actively -angry- when I play video games, so I leave at the point of being frustrated or irritated and then forget about it.
I'm gonna have to disagree with the consensus about leaving TFs, though. I really feel that if there's a rule, even unspoken, that you can't/shouldn't leave a task force midway because you can't be replaced, it allows people to take liberties with common decency.
I booted someone from a TF in the Shadow Shard once, and we had been at it for a -while-, because she was being absolutely acidic and horrible to other people in the team. The other people seemed horrified that I kicked her, but we finished the TF in good spirits and without further incident.
To me, the next hour and a half or so of harmony for 7 people was more important than some arbitrary "right" on the part of someone who was being viscious.
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I've quit more steamrolling teams than any other. If I become so functionally irrelevant that I might get 1 power off per spawn, then why bother playing? I'm a hamster hitting the button at that point in time.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Which is more fun, saying "I win!" and instantly winning, or a two-hour movie where the hero perseveres through various trials and reverses, and finally rises, battered, and barely triumphs?
Note that we already know which is faster. |
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
I appreciate the contributions from everyone.
I'd like to add that in all of the cases I listed in the OP, I did end up leaving without making drama. My policy is never to get actively -angry- when I play video games, so I leave at the point of being frustrated or irritated and then forget about it. I'm gonna have to disagree with the consensus about leaving TFs, though. I really feel that if there's a rule, even unspoken, that you can't/shouldn't leave a task force midway because you can't be replaced, it allows people to take liberties with common decency. I booted someone from a TF in the Shadow Shard once, and we had been at it for a -while-, because she was being absolutely acidic and horrible to other people in the team. The other people seemed horrified that I kicked her, but we finished the TF in good spirits and without further incident. To me, the next hour and a half or so of harmony for 7 people was more important than some arbitrary "right" on the part of someone who was being viscious. |
That is your right to do. I personally, haven't done it, but that's more of my own rule...I do ALOT of TFs, I know some will be the best ride ever, some will be fun but middle of the road, and some will be toturous experiences in pain.
I take me saying, yes I will join a TF, as willing to accept that i may just not have fun this run.
Mostly, they go well, some take longer than expected, which can sour some people (lots of "Are we there yet?" "I said we'll get there when we get there!").
Others get sour if it doesn't go off just right. "Okay I've died twice on this AV. I'm out of here!" or "This spawn killed us 4 times! We can't win! I'm gone." then usually still manage to knock it out.
But if you want to leave a TF, it is of course your right. I just think many will find it poor form.
I've also been in the situation you were speaking of. I was brought along to tank the AV. That was it. The team really didn't need me on anything else. What made it even worse was that 1) I was WP/EM so I wasn't even putting out damage, as the team was made of 7 trollers/doms who were STEAMROLLING the TF, so I'd hit my long animating attacks on alot of dead enemies. 2) THey didn't even need me to tank the AVs (so I was more of a "Just in case we need you to tank the AV).
Still, it was pretty fun to watch those 7 just obliterate everything.
Though still havent heard from you, if the team was complaining about their deaths or not. And if so, if you had offered advice on how to not go about dieing. Sometimes, you get the team makeup that doesn't mind the debt (it is a joke after all), don't mind the dieing, and still just have lots of fun (<.< I call them scrappers...whether by AT or just Scrappers at heart).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I just got off a team with 2 Tanks, a Force Fielder Defender, and Sonic Resonance Defender where a Blaster was able to die no less than 8 times in 2 missions, and take half the team with him on more than one occasion. There were multiple problems with that team, but I didnt know it was even possible for that kind of score.
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Definitely the former, for me. That's why I play a game where my heroes obliterate tons of NPCs without effort, as opposed to other games where I'd be at equal footing with my foes (i.e., a PVP FPS).
| Which is more fun, saying "I win!" and instantly winning, or a two-hour movie where the hero perseveres through various trials and reverses, and finally rises, battered, and barely triumphs? |
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I'd say this too, but there's a slight difference to it though. It will take that two-hour movie to actually get to the point where you can just go "IWIN" and decimate everything you see. For me it's a part of the enjoyment to get the most out of my characters: they'll feel a lot more "super" if they are close to invulnerable, can take out large amounts of enemies solo in a short time or lockdown a huge spawn and keep them harmless, etc, etc.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Definitely the former, for me. That's why I play a game where my heroes obliterate tons of NPCs without effort, as opposed to other games where I'd be at equal footing with my foes (i.e., a PVP FPS).
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What else is there in being a superhero than being super and better than your average gunslinger?
Having said that, I also do enjoy games where enemies are equal to myself, such as FPS games.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein
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The former - especially if I can do it and most people can't. |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Which is more fun, saying "I win!" and instantly winning, or a two-hour movie where the hero perseveres through various trials and reverses, and finally rises, battered, and barely triumphs?
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Sometimes I want to watch Saving Private Ryan and sometimes I want to watch Stripes and sometimes I want to watch The Remains of the Day and still other times I want to watch Ultraviolet and on another day Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Which is more fun, saying "I win!" and instantly winning, or a two-hour movie where the hero perseveres through various trials and reverses, and finally rises, battered, and barely triumphs?
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CoX lets me enjoy all those styles. Which is more fun? All of them.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I think the issues you listed in the first post shouldn't be too big a deal.
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Actually, you can move away from the Caltrops, and then taunt and attack. You should be able to grab the aggro of a good number of mobs. It's not necessary for mobs to cluster well around you. I know that it feels great that way as a tank. But as far as aggro is concerned, you have several tricks to get your job done. I believe there are a couple similar replies in the thread you cited too. About scattering reducing AoE effectiveness, I think the team should feel it as well. Do other team mates realize it themselves or is it just you? If other people don't really care, you might as well play along.|
Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
- Caltroppers who use their powers for evil. Mobs scatter, and at the very least make fights take longer because the spread causes AOE efficiency to drop. Usually it becomes harder to maintain aggro, if I don't lose it altogether because of critters slow-mo running in opposite directions. The kicker to all of this is the negligible damage inflicted by caltrops.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
- Fire/kin trollers who want to tank. They have nothing keeping critters specifically angry at them, so the moment someone else does more damage (say, for instance, a blaster, whos job it is to do more damage than controllers, if I'm understanding the game correctly), they catch aggro and get hosed. Usually when this happens, I'm still trying to mop up the last boss or two of a mob, and half the team has followed the adventurous fire/kin down another hallway (usually to their deaths).
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
- SuperScout Scrappers (tm). "I can do all of the damage of a scrapper and I have soft-capped defense. Lol! I'm a scranker!" Enough said, I think.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
- Other tankers with big egos. I actually believe that two or three tankers is better than one, and will happily take on the role of second-in tanker if that's what's needed. What I have problems with on a fairly regular basis are tankers who seem to feel that if they're not taking point and setting the pace of the team, they've somehow been emasculated or scorned. If there's a way to say "I go first, not you" without sounding like you're butt-hurt and petty, I haven't found it yet.
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Originally Posted by Doctor_Xaxan
In one Fire/kin instance, I left a task force mid-run because the player wouldn't stop, and didn't respond to any of my /team comments or requests. I got rage-tastic tells from multiple people in the TF telling me that it was bad sportsmanship to bail on a TF because of my ego, and that they wouldn't be able to finish because they needed me to tank Romulus.
Apparently I was just there to tank the AV. Wish they had told me that straight away. XD Anyway. |
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Nothing wrong with that.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
I'm a hamster hitting the button at that point in time.
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___________________
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Chief Hamster of the Fist of Justice / Shadows of Victory
Victory Server: Join Victory Forum for team forming and general game chat and IRC Chat: irc.hashmark.net #victory for offline chatting.
Rock, rock on Hamster.
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Even the minions of satan should strive for more! |
Originally Posted by Satanic_Hamster
Nothing wrong with that.
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The "SuperScout Scrapper" thing made me chuckle.
Firstly, because there are varying degrees and types of this behavior that you are overgeneralizing. Second, because flat-out, hard-charging, spawn-diving daring the team to keep up Scrapping is the only way I play with my Scrappers. Asking a Scrapper to be conservative and not act like a cracked up monkey with A.D.D. seems counter-intuitive.
Good: Scrapper sprinting ahead of the team and spawn diving into the next spawn, dealing lots of pain in the process.
Bad: Same thing only Scrapper consistently is over his head and getting hammered into the ground, leaving that next spawn targeting the rest of the team before the Tank is positioned to catch aggro.
Good: Scrapper bouncing around the fight and wasting high-pain targets (Sorcerers, Quantums, Cysts, etc.)
Bad: Scrappers bouncing around and pulling multiple spawn aggro onto the team (read: over aggro cap for Tanks)
Good: Scrapper going left while Tank goes right, then tandem-herding to the same location for AoE destruction.
Bad: Scrapper going off on his own and getting spanked before asking team to come save his faceplanted self.
Ultimately, several Scrapper sets offer good aggro control. Don't underestimate them. My recent Kat/Inv Scrapper had two Tanks taunting Freakshow bosses off him and they couldn't break the aggro lock they had on me. Not that I minded, but it was funny as hell.
You're not describing an aggressive Scrapper, you're describing bad players. That type of behavior, by the way, I have seen with plenty of archetypes... Including some Tanks that I needed to personally jump in and save with my Scrapper. Some after they got smeared across the floor.
Just be careful with generalizations. Not all fit the same mold. But I do agree that all things being equal, Tanks are better equipped to hold aggro and survive it. I love both my Scrappers and Tanks, so I can also fully support the "I'm a Tank, I win" philosophy. But also remember not to be too uptight about this... It's a game, and nobody remembers the good teams that flow along without drama, but EVERYONE remembers the horror shows that result in people telling each other in private "What the hell did he just do?" and "OMG, we are SO screwed!"
Those teams always make my day. At least once my blood pressure goes down and I can laugh about it.
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I feel like I've clarified and re-clarified that I'm not talking about situation where people were doing unorthodox/unconventional stuff and it went smoothly.|
Originally Posted by Garthalus
Just be careful with generalizations. Not all fit the same mold. But I do agree that all things being equal, Tanks are better equipped to hold aggro and survive it. I love both my Scrappers and Tanks, so I can also fully support the "I'm a Tank, I win" philosophy. But also remember not to be too uptight about this... It's a game, and nobody remembers the good teams that flow along without drama, but EVERYONE remembers the horror shows that result in people telling each other in private "What the hell did he just do?" and "OMG, we are SO screwed!"
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I'm talking about when it fails and I don't have access to the kick button.
Leaving the team is an obvious and simple answer to the problem, and I've done that in just about every situation to which this thread applies. But often times, a tanker leaving spells the death of the team, and I'd like to avoid doing that as much as I can.
Yes, multiple players on this forum do not like being told that they are bad players and outright dangerous for playing like idiots. Case in point, stalkers that try to land continuous and consistent melee damage rather than stalking. Controllers that try to play in scrapper range. At some point players have to be told what they are doing is wrong... and too many players honestly believe that there is nothing that can be done in the game that is wrong.
I would have a very different viewpoint. I'd be asking why the Fire / Kin wasn't staying with the group and passing out SB and ID. A team that is on crack and haz mez protection can plow through enemies a lot faster than a simple fire / kin leading on their own.
And no, this isn't up for debate, so don't even try it. This is established fact, get over it.
I have a soft-capped Stalker that has taken over as lead Brute many times. My Fire/Kin does not just sit there and SB and ID. I'm one of those Trollers who sometimes steps away from a mob and locks down another while the team is wiping up the rest of the last one. My Emp/Son doesn't put the lead Tank on Follow and Cntrl Click Healing Aura then step away from the computer, I have a secondary on it and I'm not affraid to use it. All AT's are versatile in their own way if built properly and don't have some form of Cookie Cutter Mold they fall in. I've seen Trollers, Doms, MMs, Stalkers, Scrappers, and Defenders all take alpha's and Tank many times and done it quite successfully. Don't believe me? Join RO and see for yourself!