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Heh, sounds familiar. I posted this in response to Yet Another Raise The Level Cap Whine in August:|
Originally Posted by MissInformed
And really, I kind of don't appreciate it when the level cap keeps getting pushed out and pushed out. I have enough moving targets to shoot for at work; I don't need someone to keep changing the rules in my game, too. "Thought you had a plan, you were on top, had it all figured out? Think again! Now you're small and weak and have to do it again!" I don't mind starting over on a new character; I expect that and enjoy it. I don't like it when my accomplishments on an old character suddenly get downgraded and I have to climb back up to the top.
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[If the level cap is raised] All the players who "finished" their characters just had them all "UN-finished." They now have to go back and progress all their 50s further in order to be "completed," top-level, fully-enhanced, ready-to-do-anything senior superheroes. The level cap rise took them backward to a relatively weaker state. That's one reason the response seems negative. You want to nerf every 50 in the game. So to speak. |
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Is there really, at the end of the day, any point to WoW's "endgame"? No....you just call it an endgame. You're still just killing and tweaking your build. |
Originally Posted by Kylazin
So my question is this, is there any point to have a level 50? Or is it just to start a new character and do it all over again? I understand that once you are 50, you can go back and complete missed missions and continue to tweak your build, but without some sort of end-game PvE (excuse the WoW reference: Raiding) and no real "gear" to collect, is there even a point to making it to end-game? It seems that all the threads I read people say "just make a new character" but it seems that each character is going to be playing through the same game.
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But you swapped Raiding and Gear for TFs/Farming/Exemplaring/PvP and IOs.
I've never understood questions like this on this board, when WoW really has no more endgame than CoX does. Not when you think about it. Its perception based due to the fact CoX makes itself available for alts far more than a game like WoW. There are just so many combinations of characters to try that people gravitate that way.
In either game, do you actually enjoy playing the character, or are you a hamster hitting the button? That may start answering your questions.
There is plenty of "end game" stuff to do when you hit 50.
Obo is the biggest one,badge hunting is another,I do different things with my 50's.
Couple examples; took my blaster and did his second build as a purely melee toon.
Have a fire/kin who can farm forever,different farms too.Rebuilt my mm as a team support toon,tf's/sf's and trials oh my!
I have a ss/fire/mu who has finished all in game content yet he can still get on teams to help others out w/patron arcs,mishes especially now w/ssk.
I have a mace/stone brute that runs mishes on +4/8 just to see if I can do them,or soloing Statesman on a LRSF.
You can create so many challenges,and continue the game after 50.Alts are fun but I have yet to "retire" any of my 50's.Each of them fulfills a ceratin function and purpose in the game.Although why do I have so many...thats simple because I have ideas and imagination and each of these "toons" are part of that world which I have created.
I didn't read all of this but did a ctrl-f for Pinn.
If you want activity on the servers, get off pinnacle. It is the equivalent of the smallest of small towns. I am on Liberty and Freedom. Liberty is more serious overall, an older crowd. Freedom, often called Freedumb, is a little looser. Ignore is a wonderful thing to keep from hearing the asinine banter of the people standing 10 feet from one another under Atlas but broadcasting.
After 50 you can make a warshade or peacebringer, which I am finding almost impossible to use with the ability I do my others.
Also, for me at least, I need to get a 50 on Freedom so, during a hard mish, I can do the, "Let me get my 50 Scrapper" and help get the job done.
Oh, and I collect costumes. 
EmperorSteele: You happened to pick the AT with the most spectacular variation between playstyles... playing a Claws scrapper is a lot like playing a Katana scrapper. Defenders, though, very true.
Je_saist:
I've been here since June '04. Your description sounds... different... from the game as it went live, in most aspects. (Respecs weren't in the game at the start, but neither were costume changes... or the 41-50 game for that matter. )
To the OP:
There are ways to improve your level 50- accolades, temp powers, gear (in terms of the IO system.) I used to think that "frankenslotted" IO's gave you about 20% more than generics or SO's, and top end gear gave you about 20% more than that. I checked into this with a guy who runs top-end Scrappers and... the very top end gear can give you a lot more than 20%. I think it was about 70% more DPS for a top-end katana scrapper vs. generics, but for all I know I may have picked the most extreme example.
You can't slot Purple enhancements unless you're level 50, and they drop VERY rarely in normal play. One per 2000 enemies or something like that. And they sell for jaw-dropping prices on the market, so buying your way in is only an option if you like playing the market. (I do. I've got a LOT of money and I think I could afford to purple out about three characters. )
Accolades-Task Force Commander and so forth- are badges with bonuses attached, like +10% hit points or similar. Collecting all those can take some time.
As far as "end content": there's a few things to do with a level 50. One is "Go back and do all the content you missed on the way up." I know a couple people that only have one character that they seriously play. One is "collect badges." There are six hundred some-odd badges, for everything from researching the history of the world (reading plaques) to taking damage to making money to doing task and strike forces. You can build a supergroup base. You can make billions at the Auction House, or make billions by beating it out of critters.
Or, yes, you can play new characters. I've done that a lot.
The end content of other games, as far as it has been described to me, is something like "Spend eight hours with 49 other people doing something difficult for a prize that you cannot trade and have a 95% chance of not being able to use. Repeat until you get all the prizes you want." I don't know if that's a fair description or not, but it sounds like unnecessary pain to ME. If you want to run Lord Recluse or Hami raids or ship raids or ITFs all day every day, you can.
One last point: Pinnacle, redside, may not be the best place to find a social group. Pinn is one of the small servers (anything but "virtue or freedom" is a small server, really) and most of the people on Pinnacle mostly hang out with their existing friends, seems like. If you're around, we have some villains we tend to play 8-10 PM on Mondays. Send a tell to @Boltcutter, maybe we have room on the team.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Ai. Jack fought against adding many of the features that were eventually added in.|
Je_saist: I've been here since June '04. Your description sounds... different... from the game as it went live, in most aspects. (Respecs weren't in the game at the start, but neither were costume changes... or the 41-50 game for that matter. ) |
The subject comes up pretty much everytime I run a respec trial Hero-side. Somebody always comments that it just doesn't... seem the same. The Freakshow, Rikti, and Raiders just don't seem to bum-rush like they used to...
Which they don't.
The basic problem is that when Respecs were added, the players who desperately needed the respecs were those who had made slotting decisions like 6 slots on swift or combat jumping; players whose builds were broken for the rest of the game's content.
At some point the hero respecs were adjusted... spawn rates were dropped, it moved to the timed wave system, and enemy average levels were re-adjusted. You might note you get several con-blue's on most casual respec runs in the Reactor. The trial was now possible to complete for even the worst slotted, or no slotted, avatars.
***
Also, I found that link I mentioned, about how CoH was influenced more in design to be like existing fantasy MMO's : http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...9&postcount=22
The quote in my sig says it all...
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heh. I like it. sounds like my own |
Originally Posted by Backhand
The quote in my sig says it all...
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| Also, there is a slight problem. PvP isn't end-game content. It's just content. |
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This right here. If I have a choice between running the same endgame raids over and over and over again or going to AE and playing/designing new content, the AE will win out every time. It's a fantastic game continuation concept (I prefer that over "endgame"). |
Originally Posted by Lucky666
Just want to add something I forgot AE, Architecture Entertainment. This is a wonderful tool to make your own content and play others content. This has limitless content if you think about it and you can custom tailor your own challenges!
I wasn't a huge fan of AE when first released but alot of the problems have been addressed and I think the devs have AE going in the right direction. |
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Disagree strongly. You use the word 'activity' but I think you mean 'anonymity' Sure you can pick a more populated server and get all the easy PuGs you like. Does that count as better? Only if you don't care about who you're playing with. However there are plenty of people playing on Pinnacle if you make a teeny tiny bit of effort to get connected to them. Join Global channels, use your friendlist, get in a supergroup. You'll have all the activity you can handle. Don't diss a server just because it doesn't have the kind of brain dead gaming you prefer.
| If you want activity on the servers, get off pinnacle. It is the equivalent of the smallest of small towns. |
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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... yeah, when the reactor went live I knew a guy- and he's not a bad player- who failed the respec twelve times in a row. Once on a seven-tank team- there's a hidden timer and if you don't beat the badguys fast enough you fail anyway. |
Originally Posted by je_saist
Ai. Jack fought against adding many of the features that were eventually added in.
The subject comes up pretty much everytime I run a respec trial Hero-side. Somebody always comments that it just doesn't... seem the same. The Freakshow, Rikti, and Raiders just don't seem to bum-rush like they used to... Which they don't. The basic problem is that when Respecs were added, the players who desperately needed the respecs were those who had made slotting decisions like 6 slots on swift or combat jumping; players whose builds were broken for the rest of the game's content. At some point the hero respecs were adjusted... spawn rates were dropped, it moved to the timed wave system, and enemy average levels were re-adjusted. You might note you get several con-blue's on most casual respec runs in the Reactor. The trial was now possible to complete for even the worst slotted, or no slotted, avatars. *** Also, I found that link I mentioned, about how CoH was influenced more in design to be like existing fantasy MMO's : http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...9&postcount=22 |
Another aspect of the reactor trial that people forget is that it had a wider level range (back when that meant something, ie the first five years of the game) so you had to deal with the possibility that, AFTER SIDEKICKING, you'd have a level spread like 34/33(sk)/33/32 (sk)/29/29/28(sk)/28(sk) . Since I9, you always see mostly-max-level teams, and since I16 level means nothing.
EDITED TO ADD: I ran a Sky Raider respec a couple months ago with one of those "Classic" teams- half the characters were around 24-26, only two were autoexemped down, and we didn't have a lot of firepower. The waves didn't overlap, but they were close... and there was a point where two people died on the reactor floor and there was some danger of getting overrun. So it got easier, but not THAT much easier.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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If you can do it after level cap, then it is, by definition, "endgame content". |
Originally Posted by je_saist
heh. I like it. sounds like my own
wish I had room in my sign to add that quote... guess I could if I did it as text in a picture... |
It is not, by definition, exclusively endgame content.
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Scrappers are a pretty extreme example, as a complete AT. Blasters, for the most part, are great frankenslot toons (although, specifically, I'd argue something like Archery, between Blazing Arrow and ROA being large damage components, gets a larger benefit from top IO sets than more balanced primaries do).|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
I think it was about 70% more DPS for a top-end katana scrapper vs. generics, but for all I know I may have picked the most extreme example.
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Scrappers, on the other hand, benefit enormously in getting their attack chains as small and precise as possible, in large part because their native damage is spread across a lot of powers, with the top end powers typically being out of proportion with the lower tiered ones (much like Blazing/ROA for Archery Blasters). They benefit enormously in both damage and damage mitigation with the more pricy IOs. You just can't put together the insane recharge requirements for higher end dps figures while generating large quantities of damage reduction without spending the coin.
((Which is why if you want slotting advice, for any toon, go to the Scapper board. They've done their homework over there!))
The game is balanced in large part around recharge and recovery, two components that can be drastically altered through IOs........but it is pricy. If acquiring that, either by the sets themselves or tickets/merits/inf doesn't count as endgame content, I don't know what does.
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No, I won't be. He didn't say anything about making his character more powerful, he asked for more slots. Now, given the context of the conversation up until that point, which had been about alts, it was CHARACTER SLOTS that I was thinking of.|
Originally Posted by Lucky666
maybe in the coming future the devs have said for going Rogue there will be a way to improve level 50's to make them even more powerful
Well then you may be dissappointed with Going Rogue. |
I've got no problem with the "theoretical 60".
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I have plenty of alts, because like many others, I enjoy trying out new powerset combinations & concepts. But at the same time, I also continue to regularly play my main level 50's. I believe it took me about 3 months to hit 50 on my first character. I still play that character now, 15 months later. Most of my in-game friends are the same way. I think you are making a bit of a mistake in assuming it has to be one way or the other.
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Originally Posted by Kylazin
Okay that's fair, but without end game, you level up to 50 and then just start a new character and do it all over again? That seems kind of silly especially for an MMO, where the goal is to get your character to the level cap to become more powerful.
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To the OP:
The point of this game, to the player, is to have fun. I know, slap me for saying the stupid, obvious thing, but there it is. 'Tis a game. Now the brands of fun it offers are in a couple different flavors: getting characters to be the most powerful they can be. This can be via reaching level 50, or by getting all the best inventions to make them more capable, or both. It can be by 'completing' the games content, by running all the missions, getting all the badges. It can be by trying an altogether new team role that you never experienced by making an alternate character.
But the biggest one?
Playing with fun people.
This is a massively multiplayer online role playing game, so even though you can solo, it won't be as engaging as when you find some players you really enjoy to play with, or team up with a friend and throw some superpowers around. Or heck, join a pick up group of total strangers and see what you can do. Honestly, in this aspect, your 50 is always useful. Playing with people is never repetitive as people always try new stuff, and a team with different people plays differently, guaranteed.
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maybe you shouldn't "diss" a server just because it's high population. I play on freedom and it has a lot of wonderful people. Now since it's the largest were also gonna have the most dicks but we also got the most of everything that's kinda how it works on the lergest pop server.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Disagree strongly. You use the word 'activity' but I think you mean 'anonymity' Sure you can pick a more populated server and get all the easy PuGs you like. Does that count as better? Only if you don't care about who you're playing with. However there are plenty of people playing on Pinnacle if you make a teeny tiny bit of effort to get connected to them. Join Global channels, use your friendlist, get in a supergroup. You'll have all the activity you can handle. Don't diss a server just because it doesn't have the kind of brain dead gaming you prefer.
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Originally Posted by SunGryphon
No, I won't be. He didn't say anything about making his character more powerful, he asked for more slots. Now, given the context of the conversation up until that point, which had been about alts, it was CHARACTER SLOTS that I was thinking of.
I've got no problem with the "theoretical 60". |
It can be about alts. Or not.
I know people with HUNDREDS of character.
I know someone with *TWO* - one hero and one villain, both 50.
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Are you sure? Here's a line that someone had in their sig.|
Originally Posted by Kylazin
I know that she isn't the type to want to just do it again with a new costume and some new powers.
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"Playing two different kinds of scrappers is like the difference between playing tennis and playing racquetball. Playing two different kinds of defenders is like the difference between playing hockey and playing piano."
Playing two different power sets within the same archetype can be dramatically different. And you have FOURTEEN archetypes to pick from.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
ooh, hey, I'm being quoted. Cool.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Is this game all about alts?
It can be. It certainly is an enjoyable part of the game, being able to make new, very different characters and grow them.
Also, your 50 is also not restricted from participating in nearly anything.
Badge hunting, high level task forces, "Master Of.." Task/Strike Forces (no deaths, no temp powers), limitless AE content, using Ouroboros to do the missions or missed, or redo (with challenge settings!) the missions you liked. PvP, or Purpling-out your character can be long term goals. Don't forget the Hami and Ship Raids!
Base building, and AE mission construction can also occupy a lot of time and creative skills. Check the appropriate forums for communities of helpful folks who want to help you add your AWESOME to the game.
As new content is added, it's not hard to get your 50 into it.
Events such as Hallowe'en 2009, have a lot of folks bringing out the 50s to get the stuff.
Due to the very neat Super-SideKicking system, you can now join up on that Level 5 PuG team, and be their mentor, without sucking all the xp and fun out.
If you are playing with your sweetie, you may want to look into the Level-Pact system. The SSK system makes it less special now, but for a dedicated duo, it's a handy thing.
www.paragonwiki.com is a great source of information for this game.
New or returning to the game? Want advice from experienced players who want to help YOU?
The Mentor Project: Part of the New Player Council.
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Absolutely true. Activity for the player can increase if they make the effort to meet the people, and on Pinnacle it will be easier to see the same people daily, just like a small town, and not have to mostly have pugs like on Freedom or Virtue.|
Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Disagree strongly. You use the word 'activity' but I think you mean 'anonymity' Sure you can pick a more populated server and get all the easy PuGs you like. Does that count as better? Only if you don't care about who you're playing with. However there are plenty of people playing on Pinnacle if you make a teeny tiny bit of effort to get connected to them. Join Global channels, use your friendlist, get in a supergroup. You'll have all the activity you can handle. Don't diss a server just because it doesn't have the kind of brain dead gaming you prefer.
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But for sheer activity on the servers, I would think Virtue would have everyone beat. But that doesn't mean personal activity. Just like you get a lot more people saying hello in a small town than you do in NYC.
[I have one toon on Pinnacle, after a recommendation that it's friendly. I was invited to team once my lev 2 started patrolling. But I had made a peacebringer and I've discovered I suck at Pb controls.]
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Right. One of my SGmates...well, technically he has alts?|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I have plenty of alts, because like many others, I enjoy trying out new powerset combinations & concepts. But at the same time, I also continue to regularly play my main level 50's. I believe it took me about 3 months to hit 50 on my first character. I still play that character now, 15 months later. Most of my in-game friends are the same way. I think you are making a bit of a mistake in assuming it has to be one way or the other.
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But there's only one character he actually plays regularly - his original 50, his namesake Inv/SS tank. He's an RPer, and this guy is the only character he cares about.
Gameplay wise...because he only plays that one character, instead of investing in different alts like most folks, he's simply spent massive amounts of time on his build. Where most of us talk about outfitting a new alt, he talks about getting another billion inf to purchase one single extremely rare enhancement.
It's a totally fair way to play.
@Acyl
VIRTUE
Blue: Realpolitik, Leading Lady, Glass Lass, Superball, Alec Kazam
Red: Battery Acid, Obsolete, Bugfix
Lemur Lad: You've lived in that small town for a long time. It may be a different experience for someone who just moved there.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
jump over to freedom my friend, lots more people there!
In this game, there's very little PvE content that's exclusive to level 50s, but the twist is that (while in a group) you can do content far below your level while getting full rewards.
There is gear in the Invention system, which gives you lots of ways to improve your character. The nice thing is that almost no two characters are exactly identical, since there is a lot of room for customization in a build, your character's appearance isn't tied to your gear. For those who are interested with tinkering with characters but not endless grinding, you can make money by playing the market instead. Buying a top-of-the-line build will probably take several months, so there's a lot to occupy yourself with.
Raids are not a major part of this game. Instead, a lot of max-level players repeat Task/Strike forces, which are basically a string of PvE missions that usually have an Archvillain/Hero at the end. They award Reward Merits, which you can use to buy some of the most valuable enhancements in the game.
So, I wouldn't say this game is all about alts (far from it, actually), and I think the gear, loot and market systems are better than most MMOs out there. Give it a try.