New Powersets/Power Proliferation
By
Archon099,
Posted on: 2009-10-19 23:40 in Suggestions and Ideas
1: OK
2: Cool
3: No. first, scrappers/brutes are the linked pair, not scrapper/stalker. Second, the mentality of "This clas can't use them, NYAH!!!!!" is stupid. Third Stalkers have a different power focus than scrappers. If you wanted the secondary to be focused on stalkers, that's fine. however, if it goes to Scrappers then it's already set up for brutes, and .. well, as long as it fits, it will eventually go to tanks.
4: I have no opinion here. I don't PvP.
5: No, delete PvP! >.>
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3. there are no regen brutes so i dont understand what you mean 0.o... the mentality that a class cant use certain powersets is great actually. A regeneration tank/brute is a broken 1...|
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
1: OK
2: Cool 3: No. first, scrappers/brutes are the linked pair, not scrapper/stalker. Second, the mentality of "This clas can't use them, NYAH!!!!!" is stupid. Third Stalkers have a different power focus than scrappers. If you wanted the secondary to be focused on stalkers, that's fine. however, if it goes to Scrappers then it's already set up for brutes, and .. well, as long as it fits, it will eventually go to tanks. 4: I have no opinion here. I don't PvP. 5: No, delete PvP! >.> |
5. NO DELETE YOU! PVP IS MY ESCAPE LOL
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Regen is the exception to the rule >.>|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
3. there are no regen brutes so i dont understand what you mean 0.o
5. NO DELETE YOU! PVP IS MY ESCAPE LOL |
I'm surprised there are no regen brutes yet. But, when it comes to defensive sets, the sets for scrappers and brutes are nearly identical, their base numbers are identical.. Basically if a set works for a scrapper, it works for a brute. Brutes/scrappers are the two absolute closest archtypes between heroes and villains. (they share many of the same pools, their primaries and secondaries are the same ("Melee" and "defense"), they both have a balls to the wall, in your face play style.)
Stalkers, however.. they're closer to blasters than scrappers. Sure they are melee damage primary, defense secondary, but without a lot of work, they can't take much of a beating and most builds focus on single-target damage.
I'm also adamantly against "non-proliferated" sets. (And sets designed to suck for certain archtypes)
I want to see more power sets get proliferated, I want to see new power sets be made and proliferated.
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Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
Regen is the exception to the rule >.>
I'm surprised there are no regen brutes yet. But, when it comes to defensive sets, the sets for scrappers and brutes are nearly identical, their base numbers are identical.. Basically if a set works for a scrapper, it works for a brute. Brutes/scrappers are the two absolute closest archtypes between heroes and villains. (they share many of the same pools, their primaries and secondaries are the same ("Melee" and "defense"), they both have a balls to the wall, in your face play style.) Stalkers, however.. they're closer to blasters than scrappers. Sure they are melee damage primary, defense secondary, but without a lot of work, they can't take much of a beating and most builds focus on single-target damage. I'm also adamantly against "non-proliferated" sets. (And sets designed to suck for certain archtypes) I want to see more power sets get proliferated, I want to see new power sets be made and proliferated. |
Yeah, I don't really see it that way. Brutes are a tank class really, which is why they have stone armor and scrappers don't. I still wonder why scrappers are the only class without energy melee.
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That's just "lol, really?" worthy. Really? Scrappers have as much in common with Brutes from a design standpoint as they do with Tankers, especially since, from the design standpoint, they're actually more similar to Stalkers: they both operate as hard target killers (just look at the inherent) with defenses existing only to allow them to survive in the more dangerous melee position. Brutes are intended to be in the front gathering everything around themselves, just like Tankers, except that Brutes are doing it to allow themselves to deal more damage whereas Tankers are doing it to keep the hate off of everyone else.|
Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
Brutes/scrappers are the two absolute closest archtypes between heroes and villains. (they share many of the same pools, their primaries and secondaries are the same ("Melee" and "defense")
|
Keep in mind that Stalkers also have Melee as their primary and Defense as their secondary, so you're not allowed to use that as a supporting argument, not to mention that Brutes share more sets with Tankers (all but 1 Brute primary and all but 2 secondary) than they do with Scrappers (5 out of 10 primaries and 2 out of 10 secondary) and Scrappers share more sets with Stalkers (all but 1 primary and all but 1 secondary) than they do with Brutes. If you actually look at the ATs beyond the cursory details (re: "I play my Brute and my Scrapper similarly so they're more closely related!"), then it's quite apparent where the actual similarities lie.
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Then give me a mother&$@^%# defense set in the same vein as Ninjutsu which is focused on misdirection and no more of this Electric Armor/Willpower out-and-out tank crap! If you think a Tanker or Brute won't mind having stealth and shot-term mitigation using tricks and placates then give it to them but they can't whine about "I can't tank rite with this!!1"
| No. first, scrappers/brutes are the linked pair, not scrapper/stalker. Second, the mentality of "This clas can't use them, NYAH!!!!!" is stupid. Third Stalkers have a different power focus than scrappers. If you wanted the secondary to be focused on stalkers, that's fine. however, if it goes to Scrappers then it's already set up for brutes, and .. well, as long as it fits, it will eventually go to tanks. |
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hehe would love to see nin on a scrappy
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Then give me a mother&$@^%# defense set in the same vein as Ninjutsu which is focused on misdirection and no more of this Electric Armor/Willpower out-and-out tank crap! If you think a Tanker or Brute won't mind having stealth and shot-term mitigation using tricks and placates then give it to them but they can't whine about "I can't tank rite with this!!1"
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Originally Posted by AresSupreme
1. Thermal for defenders (a therm/elec would be so badass)
2. Electric hold sets for controllers 3. New Scrapper/Stalker Secondary which CANNOT be used by brutes or tanks EVER -I have an idea, something similar to what the carnie illusionists do but a little different, The tier 9 could be like 2 minutes of them falling in and out of phase. This set would also feature a phase shift power by itself as one of the 9. Another of the powers would be a fighting phase for about 10 seconds where the player is unaffected but is able to attack. Sound kinda cool, but it is just an idea. Tired of being limited to regen only in pvp. 4. Tanks and fenders should be given a new inherent or additional one for pvp. Defenders Could have an inherent where the lower they are in health the more damage they can take opposite of the old defiance. Tanks could possibly be given a 5% increase to def and resistance for each foe within melee range. 5. Warshades, delete them from the game lol (j/k) I admit this thread is partial to heroes, i will get to vills another time. Basically break it down and tell what u like and why and what u dont like, if u dont like something, i would like for u to suggest something else, i would love to hear new ideas for scrapper/stalker secondaries. |
1) Thermal Defenders, yes please.
1.2) Thermal Elec? Make a corruptor.
2) Electric Control, with Tesla Cage, Shackles, etc etc yes pls !
3) Stalker set that can't be used by scrapper/brute??? em try ninjitsu ?
3.2) Try to do something other than phase in pvp, its not winbutton that you think.
4) Tank Idea, you more or less just described invincibility from invul set.
4.2) Defender Idea, lower the health the more damage they can take?? surely thats more hp???
5) you missed (j/k) from the other daft ideas.
Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.
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I have a feeling the reason Regen is the exception to the rule is because unlike resistance and defense, which are constants, Regen scales to HP. To give the Regeneration power set to a Tank or Brute would make them the most unstoppable killing machines in the game. A Regen tank would probably never die, and a Regen brute would be a million times better than scrappers, dealing more damage, never dying, and never getting tired. It meshed well with stalkers because they have lower HP than scrappers, but for someone with high base HP, Regen would be overpowered.|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
3. there are no regen brutes so i dont understand what you mean 0.o... the mentality that a class cant use certain powersets is great actually. A regeneration tank/brute is a broken 1...
5. NO DELETE YOU! PVP IS MY ESCAPE LOL |
Proof: Track your HP regeneration stat with the combat attributes window and use Dull Pain. Your regeneration rate will skyrocket by about 80%. Why? Increased base HP means the % of your HP that you regenerate every second is now a % of an overall larger number. Resistance and defense don't scale up with HP. You don't resist more damage when you have more HP, and you don't dodge more either. Willpower on a scrapper is amazing, but have you seen it on a tank??? It's unbelievable, lol. That's because it has regen as part of it's survival method.
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Yeah, I'd have to agree. Personally I see Brutes being closer to Tankers and Scrappers being closer to Stalkers. Scrappers and Stalkers are high damage melee classes with some armor to help being in melee and with critical hit chances. Brutes and Tankers gather up enemies around them (for different reasons) and have a lot of similar power sets. The Brute's ultimate goal is to use his high damage from gathering those enemies to kill them before he dies. A Tanker's ultimate goal is mainly just to keep the attention on him whether he kills them or not; that's the team's job. Both are technically tanking, but one it's more a side-effect of his "Brute SMASH!" mentality, lol. It's not his fault he's tanking, "The Fury made us do it, precious!" *nuzzles with Fury bar* "They do not understand... so bright... so beautiful... my precious..."
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Originally Posted by Umbral
That's just "lol, really?" worthy. Really? Scrappers have as much in common with Brutes from a design standpoint as they do with Tankers, especially since, from the design standpoint, they're actually more similar to Stalkers: they both operate as hard target killers (just look at the inherent) with defenses existing only to allow them to survive in the more dangerous melee position. Brutes are intended to be in the front gathering everything around themselves, just like Tankers, except that Brutes are doing it to allow themselves to deal more damage whereas Tankers are doing it to keep the hate off of everyone else.
Keep in mind that Stalkers also have Melee as their primary and Defense as their secondary, so you're not allowed to use that as a supporting argument, not to mention that Brutes share more sets with Tankers (all but 1 Brute primary and all but 2 secondary) than they do with Scrappers (5 out of 10 primaries and 2 out of 10 secondary) and Scrappers share more sets with Stalkers (all but 1 primary and all but 1 secondary) than they do with Brutes. If you actually look at the ATs beyond the cursory details (re: "I play my Brute and my Scrapper similarly so they're more closely related!"), then it's quite apparent where the actual similarities lie. |
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Oh, there's already a forum that a red name made sticky called "Lady Jade's Power Suggestion Box". Try posting new power ideas there, that way they are all in one place so the Devs won't have to search for them. I've suggested some proliferation there before too.
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Originally Posted by AresSupreme
1. Thermal for defenders (a therm/elec would be so badass)
2. Electric hold sets for controllers 3. New Scrapper/Stalker Secondary which CANNOT be used by brutes or tanks EVER -I have an idea, something similar to what the carnie illusionists do but a little different, The tier 9 could be like 2 minutes of them falling in and out of phase. This set would also feature a phase shift power by itself as one of the 9. Another of the powers would be a fighting phase for about 10 seconds where the player is unaffected but is able to attack. Sound kinda cool, but it is just an idea. Tired of being limited to regen only in pvp. 4. Tanks and fenders should be given a new inherent or additional one for pvp. Defenders Could have an inherent where the lower they are in health the more damage they can take opposite of the old defiance. Tanks could possibly be given a 5% increase to def and resistance for each foe within melee range. 5. Warshades, delete them from the game lol (j/k) I admit this thread is partial to heroes, i will get to vills another time. Basically break it down and tell what u like and why and what u dont like, if u dont like something, i would like for u to suggest something else, i would love to hear new ideas for scrapper/stalker secondaries. |
Brutes are neither Tankers nor Scrappers. They are Brutes.
Their lower health and lower defence/resistance scale makes them ill-suited for taking alpha attacks (SOs, not IOs), and they cannot withstand prolonged assault any where near as well as a Tanker - but they don't need to, because they are capable of high levels of damage, so they are quite adept at dropping off their assailaints much faster than a Tanker can.
Their higher health base makes them tougher than a Scrapper - a Brute can hold a prolonged assault longer than a Scrapper, falling in-between Tanker and Scrapper in survability. To call them either is a falsehood; Brutes are Brutes, and the redside classes do not correspond with the blueside classes in any meaningful fashion.
Brutes are not Tankers.
Stalkers are not Scrappers.
Corruptors are not Defenders.
Dominators are not Controllers.
Master Minds are unlike anything else, and Blasters stand alone.
Playing redside content and classes as if they were merely equivilent to blueside content and classes will lead to inevitable failure. They are very different beasts, and should be treated as such. That's why Brutes have a mix of Tanker and Scrapper powersets (and also why Stalkers have some unique, as of yet unproliferated sets.)
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With the exception of brutes/scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Playing redside content and classes as if they were merely equivilent to blueside content and classes will lead to inevitable failure. |
They're not the same class, no. But in at least 90% of the builds out there, you can play them identically. The key difference between brutes and scrappers IN PLAY is that scrappers have a slightly higher base damage and a crit chance, so they have more "constant" damage, but Brutes have fury, and a much higher damage cap, so they are rewarded for being more ballsy.
I believe the only "exception" to this is /stone brutes, which I feel was only done to answer the cry of "WAAAH HEROES GET GRANITE!!!"
Brutes are not a tanker class though, yes, they CAN tank when built right, but so can scrappers.
It's fairly accepted that the "tanker class" redside is a Mastermind with bodyguard mode. (Can take a hit from a GM and not really care much!) Which of course still doesn't render them a "tank" it just gives them the best tanking ability redside (short possibly of granite brutes)
(And no, I'm not saying Brutes = scrappers. I'm saying that in play you can readily juxtapose the two.)
I agree that the HP thing is on the main reasons regen is only for scraps and stalks, good observations. My main point is that we need stalker/scrapper specific def sets that dont scale down from brutes and tanks to make a lousy secondary...
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You can probably play your Brute like a Scrapper and do just fine, but playing a Scrapper like a Brute will probably end in tears.
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Originally Posted by ToySoldierZolgar
With the exception of brutes/scrappers.
They're not the same class, no. But in at least 90% of the builds out there, you can play them identically. |
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hehe, been there dont that. long story short. R.I.P. Ares the Impaler
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
You can probably play your Brute like a Scrapper and do just fine, but playing a Scrapper like a Brute will probably end in tears.
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No, no it doesn't. Not if you have the balls to pull it off.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
You can probably play your Brute like a Scrapper and do just fine, but playing a Scrapper like a Brute will probably end in tears.
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And sweet, I got neg repped for expressing the reason I feel scrappers and brutes are closer than any two other archtypes.
And was told that they're as close to brutes as they are to tanks or stalkers, which.. wow, how amazingly inteligent.
Lemme put it this way:
I've got a 50 tank
I've got a 50 brute
I've got a 40 scrapper
I can't play stalkers.
So correct me if I am wrong on any of this: (These all ofcourse no massive teaming buffs that make anyone as durable as a tank, or as damaging as a brute on crack)
Playing a scrapper like a tank requires a special build.
Playing a brute like a tank requires focused build.
Playing a tank like a scrapper requires a special build.
Playing a tank like a brute will usually not end well.
Playing a scrapper like a brute requires being ballsy, keeping greens on hand, and not being afraid of debt.
Playing a brute like a brute requires being ballsy, keeping greens on hand, and not being afraid of debt.
Playing a brute like a scrapper doesn't utilize their strengths the best, but is quite easily done.
Playing a scrapper like a stalker is quite doable, but very inneficient.
Playing a stalker like a scrapper requires a very solid build to be able to even dream of it.
Playing a brute like a stalker is silly, and they lack the damage to pull it off.
Playing a tank like a stalker is silly, and they lack the damage to pull it off.
Playing a stalker like a brute requires a godlike build.
Playing a stalker like a tank is only slightly less absurd than playing a blaster like a tank.
So apparently you think Stalkers are wet tissue paper?
Fair enough, I suppose considering how they set up the secondaries for them. It's at least a good deal better than slapping protection toggles on a Dom. But with the exception of Ninjutsu, Stalker secondaries are geared to 'tanking' rather than their specialty.
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Playing a Scrapper like a Tank is difficult but possible with the build and team make-up but playing it like anything else is pointless because he lacks the abilities to do so. You're not going to magically do more damage from acting like a fool and aggroing stuff and you can pretend all you want but just attacking from stealth isn't going to give you any burst.|
Playing a scrapper like a tank requires a special build. Playing a brute like a tank requires focused build. Playing a tank like a scrapper requires a special build. Playing a tank like a brute will usually not end well. Playing a scrapper like a brute requires being ballsy, keeping greens on hand, and not being afraid of debt. Playing a brute like a brute requires being ballsy, keeping greens on hand, and not being afraid of debt. Playing a brute like a scrapper doesn't utilize their strengths the best, but is quite easily done. Playing a scrapper like a stalker is quite doable, but very inneficient. Playing a stalker like a scrapper requires a very solid build to be able to even dream of it. Playing a brute like a stalker is silly, and they lack the damage to pull it off. Playing a tank like a stalker is silly, and they lack the damage to pull it off. Playing a stalker like a brute requires a godlike build. Playing a stalker like a tank is only slightly less absurd than playing a blaster like a tank. |
Playing a Brute like a tanker is only effective if you provide mutual attention to your offense. Because a taunting brute is useless but a taunting brute that is laying on the SMASH thick for doing so is not. Playing a brute like anything but a brute is a disservice to the AT itself, like playing a dominator but never using domination.
Playing a Tanker like anything but a Tanker is similarly a disservice to the AT. With your HP, resist/def numbers and caps and the lvl you have access to your shields, it's rather unsatisfying *not* to try and take a lot of hits to see your HP move at least a little.
Playing a Stalker like a scrapper ain't hard. In fact, that's exactly how you play them if, in fact, playing like a scrapper is simply running around killing stuff. Gah, are people so egotistical about their scrappers that they think they have something *special*? Hell, even a Blaster can play like a scrapper. My dominator can play like a scrapper. Scrappers are the *least* specialized AT in the game and practically anyone can emulate one. Stalkers probably come the closest to their outright DPS with the advantage of more burst. Playing a Stalker like any other melee AT is rather pointless as they either lack the tools to do it consistently or lose effectiveness.
tl;dr ver: Playing a Tanker like anything but a tanker is pointless.
Playing a Brute like anything but a brute is pointless.
Playing a Stalker like anything but a stalker is pointless.
Playing a Scrapper entails doing anything you effing want so stfu and play!
LOLPROLIFERATION.
Does anyone remember when CoH first made it through? The original powersets? I believe, with the exception of Defender Primaries/Controller Secondaries, and a few Blaster Primaries/Defender Secondaries, everything was completely unique. Tanks had 4 primaries, Scrappers were the only ones to have a Broadsword, or a Katana, or Dark Melee. The good ol' days... Right?
No, no, I kid too much. Shame on me for being evil, and whatnot.
Moar proliferation, even if the devs will never ever ever ever make a new Controller set.
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the only 2 def sets that i can think of that tanks/brutes have that scraps/stalks have is shields(scrappers only and they got that at the same time as tanks/brutes) and sr(which was given to brutes/stalkers at the same time. scraps had it first and tanks never had it.) a tank set is built with higher numbers for survivability because they don't have a high damage output. a scrappers secondary sets are lower because they put out more damage. same for a brute/stalker. please, at this point, shut your mouth and walk away. you show you know very little about what you are talking about in this and your other thread and you refuse to back up any of your statements with actual data(numbers).
| My main point is that we need stalker/scrapper specific def sets that dont scale down from brutes and tanks to make a lousy secondary... |
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/thread
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
So apparently you think Stalkers are wet tissue paper?
Fair enough, I suppose considering how they set up the secondaries for them. It's at least a good deal better than slapping protection toggles on a Dom. But with the exception of Ninjutsu, Stalker secondaries are geared to 'tanking' rather than their specialty. Playing a Scrapper like a Tank is difficult but possible with the build and team make-up but playing it like anything else is pointless because he lacks the abilities to do so. You're not going to magically do more damage from acting like a fool and aggroing stuff and you can pretend all you want but just attacking from stealth isn't going to give you any burst. Playing a Brute like a tanker is only effective if you provide mutual attention to your offense. Because a taunting brute is useless but a taunting brute that is laying on the SMASH thick for doing so is not. Playing a brute like anything but a brute is a disservice to the AT itself, like playing a dominator but never using domination. Playing a Tanker like anything but a Tanker is similarly a disservice to the AT. With your HP, resist/def numbers and caps and the lvl you have access to your shields, it's rather unsatisfying *not* to try and take a lot of hits to see your HP move at least a little. Playing a Stalker like a scrapper ain't hard. In fact, that's exactly how you play them if, in fact, playing like a scrapper is simply running around killing stuff. Gah, are people so egotistical about their scrappers that they think they have something *special*? Hell, even a Blaster can play like a scrapper. My dominator can play like a scrapper. Scrappers are the *least* specialized AT in the game and practically anyone can emulate one. Stalkers probably come the closest to their outright DPS with the advantage of more burst. Playing a Stalker like any other melee AT is rather pointless as they either lack the tools to do it consistently or lose effectiveness. tl;dr ver: Playing a Tanker like anything but a tanker is pointless. Playing a Brute like anything but a brute is pointless. Playing a Stalker like anything but a stalker is pointless. Playing a Scrapper entails doing anything you effing want so stfu and play! |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I just wanted to add that, because of the higher health base (and higher regen that goes with that), playing a "Brute like a Brute" doesn't generally require a good supply of greens. I will agree that playing a Scrapper like a Brute does.
Also, for anyone that thinks Stalkers are weak, I'd like to introduce you to my VG's Claws/Regen Stalker, who has often been the last one down on a team wipe in our VG teams (and more often than not pulls off finishing off the pull and letting us rez rather than run).
I'd like to, but the scaly traitor is playing CO these days.
Regen brutes would probably be either way overpowered or would die alot to Alpha strikes :P
Okay, here's the thing...
Noone is wrong in this thread. But everyone is wrong in it at the same time.
Unlike other games, there are not clear cut "this is how X class is played". But, we as gamer nerds still feel the need to find that "way to play". It's just the nature of gamer nerds.
In CoH/V though, you can be effective with multiple play styles, based off the preference of the player. Some archtypes are geared a little more towards a certain style, and that what leads people to usually argue that "X is like Y.
For me, Brutes are the most suited to my play style, which is why I can also play tanks pretty well, and why I can usually play scrappers, but.. tend to die frequently.
1. Thermal for defenders (a therm/elec would be so badass)
2. Electric hold sets for controllers
3. New Scrapper/Stalker Secondary which CANNOT be used by brutes or tanks EVER
-I have an idea, something similar to what the carnie illusionists do but a little different,
The tier 9 could be like 2 minutes of them falling in and out of phase. This set would also
feature a phase shift power by itself as one of the 9. Another of the powers would be
a fighting phase for about 10 seconds where the player is unaffected but is able to attack.
Sound kinda cool, but it is just an idea. Tired of being limited to regen only in pvp.
4. Tanks and fenders should be given a new inherent or additional one for pvp. Defenders
Could have an inherent where the lower they are in health the more damage they can take
opposite of the old defiance. Tanks could possibly be given a 5% increase to def and resistance for each foe within melee range.
5. Warshades, delete them from the game lol (j/k)
I admit this thread is partial to heroes, i will get to vills another time. Basically break it down and tell what u like and why and what u dont like, if u dont like something, i would like for u to suggest something else, i would love to hear new ideas for scrapper/stalker secondaries.