Lit. Rod/Shield Charge for Brute, Tank, Scrapper
By
Another Space,
Posted on: 2009-10-18 12:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I will research to see what the changes were, but I thought they were kicking around the idea of modifying Scrapper and Tanker shield charge to add more damage. I thought the changes had even been implemented.
And to correct one thing, it doesn't suck for Brutes when they hit the damage cap with AoA, 90% Fury and socketed enhancements- it is actually quite nice. 
Here are the notes for the Shield Charge patch. I would suspect that one is in the works for lightning rod as well.
October 14: Shield Defense - Shield Charge: Modified this power's damage to have it correctly be multiplied by the Scrapper damage modifier. The end result is a large increase in damage to this power.
Similar for tankers basically. Except for a large increase, the language expressed a slight increase in damage.
Doesn't this address the issue for Shield Charge?
Link here: http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/pat...00909303t.html
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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Originally Posted by magikwand
I will research to see what the changes were, but I thought they were kicking around the idea of modifying Scrapper and Tanker shield charge to add more damage. I thought the changes had even been implemented.
And to correct one thing, it doesn't suck for Brutes when they hit the damage cap with AoA, 90% Fury and socketed enhancements- it is actually quite nice. Here are the notes for the Shield Charge patch. I would suspect that one is in the works for lightning rod as well. October 14: Shield Defense - Shield Charge: Modified this power's damage to have it correctly be multiplied by the Scrapper damage modifier. The end result is a large increase in damage to this power. Similar for tankers basically. Except for a large increase, the language expressed a slight increase in damage. Doesn't this address the issue for Shield Charge? Link here: http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/pat...00909303t.html |
I think you're missing what he wants. He wants to be able to do even more damage with it on his brute.
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If he is asking for shield charge to function as an auto-dmg cap power, which is fairly silly, I fully disagree. I don't have a problem reaching damage cap on my brutes. As much as I love killing stuff with a brute, I think it would be plain OP to allow this to hit up for full damage regardless of fury.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
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I'm pretty sure he just wants shield charge to be able to utilize the brute damage cap when he is at the brute damage cap, instead of the pet damage cap. He doesn't want it to hit for damage cap level damage even when isn't at the damage cap. |
Originally Posted by magikwand
If he is asking for shield charge to function as an auto-dmg cap power, which is fairly silly, I fully disagree. I don't have a problem reaching damage cap on my brutes. As much as I love killing stuff with a brute, I think it would be plain OP to allow this to hit up for full damage regardless of fury.
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I believe the pet damage cap is 400%, and brute is 850%. Right now, even if the brute is at the damage cap of 850%, the attack only hits for up to the 400% cap where all other brute attacks would be doing 850% damage.
100% for Enhancements
200% for Fury
65% for fully saturdated AAO
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365% total damage
That's assuming you can maintain full fury all the time, which is pretty hard. That's not even the pet damage cap, so you have nothing to worry about solo unless you're chugging reds. On teams, however, Shield Charge would get the lower end of the stick in comparison to your other brute attacks. However, with fully saturated AAO you will only be getting part of the 80% damage bonus from build up in regards to your pet damage cap abilities. It still isn't even close to the brute damage cap, though.
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These changes were made so that LR and SC would adhere to AT damage levels by respecting At damage modifiers. A Brute can't adhere to its AT damage levels without a higher damage cap on these skills. A Scrapper can.|
Originally Posted by SevereCalamity
I believe the pet damage cap is 400%, and brute is 850%. Right now, even if the brute is at the damage cap of 850%, the attack only hits for up to the 400% cap where all other brute attacks would be doing 850% damage. 100% for Enhancements 200% for Fury 65% for fully saturdated AAO ------------------------------ 365% total damage That's assuming you can maintain full fury all the time, which is pretty hard. That's not even the pet damage cap, so you have nothing to worry about solo unless you're chugging reds. On teams, however, Shield Charge would get the lower end of the stick in comparison to your other brute attacks. However, with fully saturated AAO you will only be getting part of the 80% damage bonus from build up in regards to your pet damage cap abilities. It still isn't even close to the brute damage cap, though. |
First, let me explain damage caps. Dominators, Controllers, Defenders, etc have a 400% damage cap. This doesn't mean that they cap at +400% enhanced damage, it means that they cap at 400% total damage. Thus, their maximum amount of +damage is 300% (300% enhancement +100% base = 400%). This is really easy to test-- pop 12 small reds on any of these ATs while monitoring your damage through combat attributes. You will cap at 300%. At this point, the socketed damage in your skills is doing nothing.
Now, as stated above, pet damage is capped at 400% as well. This means that a Brute will blow past the damage cap at 95%+180%+25%, which involves just 3 characters in AoA range and 90% Fury. Build Up is completely wasted.
The reason that Brutes are now hurt by this change is that the 850% damage cap is a balance against the Scrapper's 1.125 AT modifier and their 500% damage cap. A brute NEEDS more total enhanced damage through higher caps to equal a Scrapper's enhanced damage.
Here are some numbers:
- Brute Shield Charge at 80% Fury, 3 targets in AoA:
133[cannot exceed 300%(1+0.95+1.6+.265)]= 507 - Brute Shield Charge at 80% Fury, 3 targets in AoA, +BU:
133[cannot exceed 300%(1+0.8+0.95+1.6+0.265)]=532 <-65% damage removed due to cap - Scrapper Shield Charge, 3 targets in AoA:
200[cannot exceed 300%(1+0.95+33.125)]= 456.25 - Scrapper Shield Charge, 3 targets in AoA, +BU:
200[cannot exceed 300%(1+0.95+33.125)+1]=656.25
As you can see, Build Up is basically wasted on the Brute, but adds significantly to the Scrapper because their source of damage is from AT modifiers and not extraneous +damage. This is why Brutes have such a high damage cap. They must rely on large amounts of +damage through Fury and other buffs in order to approach Scrapper levels.
Brutes had a significant advantage over Tanks and Scrappers before these changes were made. SC and LR did the same damage for all three ATs, but Brutes benefited from Fury. Now, with the AT modifiers in place, it appears that the developers want these skills to adhere to AT damage levels that they designed. The Brute is particularly hindered by not increasing the damage cap on these skills because it is unable to employ Build Up with a head of Fury for extra damage.
The Scrapper is limited slightly as well, and should be able to hit the 500% damage cap when on a team setting or swallowing reds. However, the Scrapper AT will rarely hit the 400% damage cap without significant outside buffs while a Brute can exceed it by nearly 100% without a single red.
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This could be the reason that Castle doesn't see a problem. Not suggesting it is the reason, just that it could be.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
The Scrapper is limited slightly as well, and should be able to hit the 500% damage cap when on a team setting or swallowing reds. However, the Scrapper AT will rarely hit the 400% damage cap without significant outside buffs while a Brute can exceed it by nearly 100% without a single red.
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Brutes, to be honest, already get the best of both worlds while under extreme buffing. They get to be tanks and scrappers at the same time. It doesn't strike me as particularly unfair that this power be better on Scrappers.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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What strikes me as unfair is that the skills are now balanced relative to AT damage modifiers, but not relative to AT damage caps. They should have been balanced across the board-- and damage caps are part of that balance.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
This could be the reason that Castle doesn't see a problem. Not suggesting it is the reason, just that it could be.
Brutes, to be honest, already get the best of both worlds while under extreme buffing. They get to be tanks and scrappers at the same time. It doesn't strike me as particularly unfair that this power be better on Scrappers. |
A Brute exceeding the pet damage cap by 100% is equal to a Scrapper hitting BU and having 4 targets in AoA range. These ATs are quite balanced in regular play.
Also, the Brute can actually use Shield Charge at range for some alpha mitigation and not feel it whereas if a Scrapper doesn't take advantage of using Shield Charge accompanied with Against All Odds, they'll be significantly lowering their output.
That spreads out /Shield survival levels between those ATs further.
For a Scrapper to exceed the damage that a Brute does with their damage-capped Lightning Rod - or Shield Charge - they need to have Build Up, and 2 white SO damage enhancements. That's not exactly all that difficult. My Shield/SS Tanker also routinely ends up with damage-capped Shield Charge - now it hits even harder.
So if it's "too strong" to be able to cap it all the time for Brutes, what about being able to exceed it's previously capped damage so easily? That said, I don't forsee any increase to the pet damage cap.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
This could be the reason that Castle doesn't see a problem. Not suggesting it is the reason, just that it could be.
Brutes, to be honest, already get the best of both worlds while under extreme buffing. They get to be tanks and scrappers at the same time. It doesn't strike me as particularly unfair that this power be better on Scrappers. |
this doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Unfortunately, I don't see them readdressing this either.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
That said, I don't forsee any increase to the pet damage cap.
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Changing the skills to have them match AT damage scales was basically an admission that they are not pets, but attacks that employ a pseudo-pet to do damage. (Duh-- that's what they've always been but not what they were numerically). Having them adhere to AT damage caps should have been part of that process.
Simply put, it's easy enough for a Shield Brute to have BU, Soul Drain, or Rage add absolutely no damage to their Shield Charge. This should not be the case, and a player shouldn't have to make exceptions for a handful of skills due to esoteric knowledge that they are using a pseudo-pet and not an actual attack.
I'll agree to your idea of upping the pet damage modifier for brutes shield charge if you agree the scrapper shield charge should be able to crit.
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
I'll agree to your idea of upping the pet damage modifier for brutes shield charge if you agree the scrapper shield charge should be able to crit.
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Umm no. Quills, a damage aura for a Scrapper primary can critical. Blazing Aura, Death Shroud, and Lightning Field for Scrapper secondaries cannot.
Criticals are tied to the Scrapper primary damage skills and not secondary damage skills. Lightning Rod should critical for Scrappers and Stalkers. Shield Charge should not.
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This times 1000 and it isn't just for SC/L-rod.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Unfortunately, I don't see them readdressing this either.
Changing the skills to have them match AT damage scales was basically an admission that they are not pets, but attacks that employ a pseudo-pet to do damage. (Duh-- that's what they've always been but not what they were numerically). Having them adhere to AT damage caps should have been part of that process. Simply put, it's easy enough for a Shield Brute to have BU, Soul Drain, or Rage add absolutely no damage to their Shield Charge. This should not be the case, and a player shouldn't have to make exceptions for a handful of skills due to esoteric knowledge that they are using a pseudo-pet and not an actual attack. |
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Agreed again |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Umm no. Quills, a damage aura for a Scrapper primary can critical. Blazing Aura, Death Shroud, and Lightning Field for Scrapper secondaries cannot.
Criticals are tied to the Scrapper primary damage skills and not secondary damage skills. Lightning Rod should critical for Scrappers and Stalkers. Shield Charge should not. |
except I will say that for stalkers it would be acceptable to just note in the power description that L-Rod does not break hide, but as a result does not crit.Either it should break hide and have a crit chance, or work like it currently does for them, but not both. But either way the power description should...describe it.
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If their tied to damage primarys then tell me how my fireblast crits on a scrapper? hmm how?
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Umm no. Quills, a damage aura for a Scrapper primary can critical. Blazing Aura, Death Shroud, and Lightning Field for Scrapper secondaries cannot.
Criticals are tied to the Scrapper primary damage skills and not secondary damage skills. Lightning Rod should critical for Scrappers and Stalkers. Shield Charge should not. |
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For sure-- and the Stalker description should most definitely be updated. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Agreed again
except I will say that for stalkers it would be acceptable to just note in the power description that L-Rod does not break hide, but as a result does not crit.Either it should break hide and have a crit chance, or work like it currently does for them, but not both. But either way the power description should...describe it. |
I debated this in my head, and felt that while it's awesome that LR doesn't break hide, it feels like more of a bug than an intended feature. My guess is that they let this bug remain because they didn't have time to program criticals. However, Rain of Arrows now scourges, so I don't see why they can't readress this skill at some point. LR really should critical and break hide, but that might anger some people and now be sugject to the cottage rule...
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Originally Posted by Lucky666
If their tied to damage primarys then tell me how my fireblast crits on a scrapper? hmm how?
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APPs and the rules that govern them have no bearing on the dichotomy that exists between Primary and Secondary skills within the Scrapper AT. Scrappers don't critical from their Secondary. Period. No skill ever does, and Shield Charge will never break that rule.
Nor should you use it to demand tit-for-tat in a perceived AT squabble. I already stated that Scrappers need a 500% damage cap on this skill. This isn't about buffing Brutes but making the skills adhere to AT mechanics across the board. It just so happens that +damage is an AT mechanic for Brutes, and they are particularly hindered by the 400% damage cap.
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And I am swayed by the detailed and thoughtful argument. |
Originally Posted by Frosticus
this doesn't make a lot of sense.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Then perhaps the same distinction should exist for Brutes. Brute secondary attacks probably shouldn't benefit from Fury, no?
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Umm no. Quills, a damage aura for a Scrapper primary can critical. Blazing Aura, Death Shroud, and Lightning Field for Scrapper secondaries cannot.
Criticals are tied to the Scrapper primary damage skills and not secondary damage skills. Lightning Rod should critical for Scrappers and Stalkers. Shield Charge should not. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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That's really silly from someone with so much experience here. Fury has always stacked with every power the Brute possesses. It's why the AT has a .75 damage modifier, less than Tanks. Every power in the Brute's Secondary that's not a pseudo pet has the same damage caps as the AT. This is about having skills operate as expected within the existing AT structure and not being an exception due to being coded as a pseudo pet.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Then perhaps the same distinction should exist for Brutes. Brute secondary attacks probably shouldn't benefit from Fury, no?
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Scrappers have never received criticals from their secondary. Whether they should or should not receive criticals is a completely different debate and has no bearing on specific skills that break the existing AT format.
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I don't agree. I think it's exactly the same question you posit. |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Scrappers have never received criticals from their secondary. Whether they should or should not receive criticals is a completely different debate and has no bearing on specific skills that break the existing AT format.
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| This is about having skills operate as expected within the existing AT structure and not being an exception due to being coded as a pseudo pet. |
It's an idiosyncrasy with the AT. It will probably never be fixed because Scrappers don't need the buff. Likewise, neither do Brutes. I'm not saying that what you're arguing is unfair, it is fair. But then so would allowing Consume, Burn, Shield Charge, Death Shroud, Lightning Field and Blazing Aura to crit. And for the same reason you state above. It's about having skills operate within the existing AT structure. You know, the one where Scrapper attacks crit.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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But here's the deal. The existing AT structure for Scrappers denies criticals from their secondary. This is universal and across the board. Whether it's fair or not is a separate debate-- but that IS the current AT structure, and a Shield Charge without criticals adheres to the way the current Scrapper AT plays. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It's an idiosyncrasy with the AT. It will probably never be fixed because Scrappers don't need the buff. Likewise, neither do Brutes. I'm not saying that what you're arguing is unfair, it is fair. But then so would allowing Consume, Burn, Shield Charge, Death Shroud, Lightning Field and Blazing Aura to crit. And for the same reason you state above. It's about having skills operate within the existing AT structure. You know, the one where Scrapper attacks crit.
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Having isolated skills that are pseudo pets and don't follow existing AT rules is completely different. Shield Charge and Lightning Rod are two notable exceptions to a rule that applies to all Brute damage skills. That is that there is an 850% damage cap, and they are all affected by Fury.
There's no reason that a Brute player should have to hit Build Up and unknowingly have it add no damage to their Shield Charge simply because it's one of two skills that ignores what everything else in the AT does properly.
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So it's okay for it to ignore the inherent of another AT but not Brutes?|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
But here's the deal. The existing AT structure for Scrappers denies criticals from their secondary. This is universal and across the board. Whether it's fair or not is a separate debate-- but that IS the current AT structure, and a Shield Charge without criticals adheres to the way the current Scrapper AT plays.
Having isolated skills that are pseudo pets and don't follow existing AT rules is completely different. Shield Charge and Lightning Rod are two notable exceptions to a rule that applies to all Brute damage skills. That is that there is an 850% damage cap, and they are all affected by Fury. There's no reason that a Brute player should have to hit Build Up and unknowingly have it add no damage to their Shield Charge simply because it's one of two skills that ignores what everything else in the AT does properly. |
Despite Shield Charge being in the secondary, it's a very similar power to something in a primary melee set and if you can fix one you might as well fix the other.
The only AT that will predictably hit the dmg cap for their pseudo-pets is Brute and we don't need to be doing them any favors. Why not lower the maximum dmg fury provides so hitting that cap is a little tougher? No? Well how bout just 'fixing' those powers in a general sense.
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while I wouldn't complain if Lightning Rod critted for Stalkers...it would be incredibly broken when a Stalker can double crit. Not to mention LR doesn't break hide...|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Umm no. Quills, a damage aura for a Scrapper primary can critical. Blazing Aura, Death Shroud, and Lightning Field for Scrapper secondaries cannot.
Criticals are tied to the Scrapper primary damage skills and not secondary damage skills. Lightning Rod should critical for Scrappers and Stalkers. Shield Charge should not. |
BU -> LR -> TS -> Placate -> Ball Lightning/whatever Patron AoE
I noticed that Lightning Rod and Shield Charge were made to respect AT damage modifiers-- which makes a lot of sense.
However, it appears that the skills don't respect the AT damage cap and still have pet caps. This is really sucks when a Brute can hit the pet damage cap with AoA, 90% Fury, and socketed damage alone.
These skills should obey their respective AT damage caps as well. Bring the Scrapper version to 500% and the Brute version to 850%.