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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler View Post
Crate Buster 2000 had no aggro system.
I'll go let Silverspar know that BABs has smacked down Arcanaville AGAIN, thus invalidating every post she's ever made on these boards ever.

Also, I just Googled Crate Buster 2000 and it appears to not exist outside of BABs' head. Or that's the new codename for GoRo. Because if there is anything a video game player is used to fighting, it's crates.

City of Crates, due out Q2 2010.


 

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Originally Posted by UnSub View Post
City of Crates, due out Q2 2010.
But the real question is..... will I be able to make a Cardboard/Airpak Crate, or will that that combo be limited to the Box AT?


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
It would be better if some things required higher levels of taunt/hate to draw their attention rather than simply ignoring taunt/hate altogether. In effect, they could be resistant to taunt, and have intrinsic preferences that are mechanically like taunting themselves to attack something. So something with an "attack the healer" preference wouldn't simply ignore the tank and kamikaze the defender, it would act as if healers were taunting them with mag X, and the tanker would notice they would need to generate at least mag X+1 to get their attention (this is an oversimplification: the way taunt works doesn't quite align with this idea as I understand taunt and hate).
I think this would be a better way to handle it if it was to be done. I'm generally against the idea of anything that completely nullifies the primary function of an entire given AT. Making it harder for them to perform that function in some situations is more interesting and fun, in my opinion.


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Posted

This mechanic (some mobs ignore taunt/aggro mechanics) works fine in many WoW fights, but they're not the rule. I can only think of one boss that ignores aggo, but that boss is a) only one phase in a four-phase fight, and b) can't one-shot anyone without telegraphing it far in advance, allowing people to get out of the way. Okay, maybe Onyxia as well during her air phase.


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Originally Posted by UnSub View Post
I'll go let Silverspar know that BABs has smacked down Arcanaville AGAIN, thus invalidating every post she's ever made on these boards ever.
You know Silver will go on about this in two years on the SW:TOR board.


 

Posted

I'd like to address some of these.

Aggro: Asheron's Call didn't have aggro like the new games do. You attack something and it would attack back. Some foes would attack you for getting too close, and there were times that you could get foes to attack each other. Running between two groups and getting one to fire could, result in the other group being hit. They would then aggro on the group that attacked them. Virindi Executors were great for this.

There were also no true tanks. There were strong melee characters, but the foes would attack the characters that hurt them the most. One super monster had to be pushed into a wall, then pined in place by high def characters that didn't attack. The monsters would focus on the damage dealing mages and archers, but couldn't get to them because of the wall of melee guys just standing shoulder to shoulder. He had no ranged attacks, but his sword was basically instant death.

Static Worlds: Again from AC. There were world changing events. An insectoid race called the Olthoi invaded one patch. There were several underground hives that were level restricted. Until the hive was cleared, the Olthoi in that area made any real form of travel very dangerous. When a team was able to successfully beat a hive, that area was secure. The name of the players on the team that beat the hive would then be broadcast across the server.

In another case, there was a town that had become the gathering point for player trades. Congestion got so bad that the town was destroyed. Literally. A giant monster came in without waring and leveled the place. Years later it was being rebuilt but was still mostly ruins.

In yet another, one patch saw the addition of a statue in the center of every town. These statues would unleash swarms of living statues on the people in the towns, until the mechanism inside the statue base was destroyed. Again, this happened one time per town per server.

Finally, Dice rolls: AC didn't really seem to use them for combat. It used the FPS style of an actual projectile. It was possible to dodge spells and arrows by running behind trees and zig-zagging. Some spells were able to track a little bit.

Button Lock: Melee weapons had a slider that ranged the attacks from weak and fast, to strong and slow. The problem was that there was one attack.

Spells had no recharge, and could be cast repeatedly with no effect other than mana drain.

Now, AC was not without it's faults. Since there was only one attack, it was possible to set it to auto fire, and it would attack target a until it was dead, then move to the next foe that attacked, and so on. As long as there was stamina to use, the player didn't actually have to do anything. Mages took a great deal more effort to play and took a very long time to develop. Your choices were either Fast and boring, or tedious and powerful.

The problem with AC was that every character had the potential to be a tank mage. My axe fighter could self buff with a full set of level 6 (7 was highest then) spells. A level 1 character with a full set of buffs and a pocket healer could go from level 1 to level 20 in under an hour.

I had a thrown weapon character (Considered the worst of the three ranged weapon sets) that could go into a cave and spend a full 45 minutes in one spot, attacking non stop as hoards of Olthio rushed at me to die. I wasn't uncommon to be under attack by 20 or more critters at once while solo.

That became the norm for the game, and a progressive cycle of making harder foes, then giving more powerful tools to beat them went into effect. Eventually the line between veterans and new players was nearly insurmountable.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
It would be better if some things required higher levels of taunt/hate to draw their attention rather than simply ignoring taunt/hate altogether. In effect, they could be resistant to taunt, and have intrinsic preferences that are mechanically like taunting themselves to attack something. So something with an "attack the healer" preference wouldn't simply ignore the tank and kamikaze the defender, it would act as if healers were taunting them with mag X, and the tanker would notice they would need to generate at least mag X+1 to get their attention (this is an oversimplification: the way taunt works doesn't quite align with this idea as I understand taunt and hate).
I think the problem here is mechanical. As Castle (was it?) explained it, Taunt was an effective threat MULTIPLER, leading to threat ratings that were completely out of proportion with those of no-taunting players, even if they had an otherwise high threat rating. I don't remember the exactly numbers, but I seem to recall thousands being mentioned as a treat rating.

Of course, I'm not entirely clear as to how, exactly, the system works, so I may be missing something. It just seems to me that, if enemies are able to resist taunting, then they will be practically immune to anything short of very high-magnitude taunts. I'm not sure that's a good idea, as that would put them out of reach of things like Taunt auras and so on, and I'm not sure if it won't put them out of reach of being taunted by anything other than a Tanker.

And again, I just don't know.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Tog View Post
Finally, Dice rolls: AC didn't really seem to use them for combat. It used the FPS style of an actual projectile. It was possible to dodge spells and arrows by running behind trees and zig-zagging. Some spells were able to track a little bit.
The problem with a real-time FPS targeting system is that it requires a very fast connection to the server. Anything over 60-70 ping makes such a system insidiously hard to hit anything with, because not only are you inaccurate, the game actually misleads you as to what you're aiming for. This taxes the servers and, more importantly, isn't always even feasible. I live in Europe, and I have a pretty fast connection, around 10-11 Mb/s, yet I literally CANNOT get less than 250-300 ping to the City of Heroes servers, and I can rarely see less than 100 ping to any server outside of Europe. In fact, one of the positives about City of Heroes when I was buying it was that I didn't have to have a fast connection with the server.

It's a good idea in theory, especially for a single-player or close-network game, but for a game with players from, quite literally, around the world, that can be problematic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I think the problem here is mechanical. As Castle (was it?) explained it, Taunt was an effective threat MULTIPLER, leading to threat ratings that were completely out of proportion with those of no-taunting players, even if they had an otherwise high threat rating. I don't remember the exactly numbers, but I seem to recall thousands being mentioned as a treat rating.

Of course, I'm not entirely clear as to how, exactly, the system works, so I may be missing something. It just seems to me that, if enemies are able to resist taunting, then they will be practically immune to anything short of very high-magnitude taunts. I'm not sure that's a good idea, as that would put them out of reach of things like Taunt auras and so on, and I'm not sure if it won't put them out of reach of being taunted by anything other than a Tanker.

And again, I just don't know.
That's why my suggestion doesn't quite work right with CoX's current aggro environment. Its possible to make it work using the taunt-effect override mechanism, but since that mechanism has significant hysteresis (you need a very large taunt to override a previous taunt) it doesn't have the fine control necessary to make this work very well. Otherwise, the multiplier for taunt is too high to allow for any real leveraging of the hate mechanism itself in this context.


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Originally Posted by UnSub View Post
I'll go let Silverspar know that BABs has smacked down Arcanaville AGAIN, thus invalidating every post she's ever made on these boards ever.
Pthhth thhhh thhhh.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Pthhth thhhh thhhh.
Now =that's= an Arcanaville quote you file away for future reference!

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Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
Because the game is designed assuming that they won't. If the tank can't keep those mobs off the priority targets, what is the point of the tank?
Some mobs can see through stealth, and if a mob can see through stealth, what's the point of playing a stalker?

Having a single class of mob immune to your trick doesn't make your trick worthless, it just means you can't have one trick. It also means that you don't want that one class popping up everywhere in the game -- that's just annoying (and its also something I discussed near the bottom of the original post).

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Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
This is great, but balance has to be kept in mind. Remember how the PvE balance minimum is supposed to be soloing "heroic" (now +0 x1) missions?
Outside of the really low-level game, I don't think that's been the balance point for a long time.

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Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
Well, if you have frequent cases where you have to fight 2 spawns at once if you miss the hold or kill shot on that one mob (assuming you can pick out the mob that will be calling/running for help), suddenly the minimum is raised, requiring some buffs to some player builds.
Again, you're assuming frequent. At the end of the post I clarify that this shouldn't be frequent just often enough that you'll be on the lookout for it.

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Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
That now means that normal spawns are going to become less challenging. This is fine, to me (I don't think every spawn should be a challenge, I think there should be varying levels of difficulty throughout a mission to keep things interesting), but may not be fine to the devs. They may like their 3 minions = 1 player minimum.
Frequency again. But the minimum difficulty in today's game is not Heroic, it's -1x1. Knocking every mob down a level is a pretty serious decrease in difficulty, and I don't think it's out of line that certain ats/powersets/builds may need to drop their difficulty down a notch to solo comfortably (assuming most continue to play just fine at +0x1).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
Also, I hope that if it is done, it isn't over-done. I'd like this situation to be an occasional surprise, not something you expect to happen 10 times in one mission.

They could add interesting tricks that mobs can do, but I do hope a lot of thought goes into how it will affect overall gameplay.
The more tricks they have, the less frequently you should see any one trick. Personally, I think going for once or twice a mission (assuming relatively short, radio-length missions) is about right. Some mob groups may do these things more often, others less, but that's about what I'm imagining.


 

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I'm a little late to this party, but I'll post anyway

The game already supports all the tools it needs to make fights more interesting, and little or no code needs to be written to accommodate it (although backfilling previous content might be a little tedious). Quantums and Voids are AT specific enemies that spawn at about the correct rate (once or twice per mission), the same could be done for other ATs.

The mechanic for summoning reinforcements without messing with spawn proximity already exits - Rikti Communication Officers (And Clockwork Dukes (or princes, whichever summon)). They open a portal, reinforcements spill out. A similar mechanic could work for some other groups (skyraiders "teleport" in as a summon, Tsoo ninjas "drop" from the ceiling, CoTs can summon the MM pets, etc)

Other mechanics that could be used to pose a difficulty for certain ATs: Have a minion/lieutenant that summons singularity, or that even justs casts repel - most melee heroes will have a problem, most ranged wont. Have a minion that has a mag 20 hold (long recharge). If a tank taunts without looking first,they may get held. Have more enemy healers and buffers. Have a minion that can cast a long duration debuff like the kind you can get from a lab reactor. Depending on how individually challenging/annoying these various ideas are, they could spawn with almost any group, or they could be more like quants/voids and only spawn once or twice a map.


 

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
That's why my suggestion doesn't quite work right with CoX's current aggro environment. Its possible to make it work using the taunt-effect override mechanism, but since that mechanism has significant hysteresis (you need a very large taunt to override a previous taunt) it doesn't have the fine control necessary to make this work very well. Otherwise, the multiplier for taunt is too high to allow for any real leveraging of the hate mechanism itself in this context.
Talking about Aggro with CoH in mind doesn't really accomplish a whole lot simply because the system is so different compared to most MMOs. As stated, Taunts are so universally overriding they largely negate the concept of Aggro as it exists in the mind of most MMO players. It's not necessarily a band thing in CoH though, since Aggro is more a measure of how many mobs hate you rather than whether or not the 1 mob does. In some ways, number of minions equates similarly to number of "hate points" most games use. I think where it breaks down is in the boss/AV range, where a single heavy target needs a little more nuance than a horde of minions.

Outside of CoH specifics, I'm continually disappointed that Aggro has become a stat instead of simply an expectation of programmed enemy behavior. I don't consider WoW to be the bane of MMOs or anything, but I do blame it for allowing players to view Aggro as a stat and micromanage enemy behavior accordingly. Any computer opponent is going to base its action on rules, but making those rules transparent to the user wipes any notion of "intelligence" from the term AI. Enemy behavior should be a learned skill based on prior experience, not something you're queued up on like low HP.

I think numbers in general, as great as they are, tend to break player immersion significantly. I think players tend to forget that the big monster can't "see" that the mage is doing 134 dps to them, while the tank is "only" doing 74 dps. Clearly they should "see" that the mage is the greater threat, and not the shiny armored guy with the sharp sword that's screaming and flailing in their face. People lose the grasp on the idea that monsters attack that which most aggravates them, not the one that's necessarily the greatest threat.

It doesn't help that developers for the most part have started to treating their AI as a mechanic rather than a behavior concept. Again, I use WoW as an example because their raids have increasingly become variations of gaming the aggro mechanics. It's more prevalent in PvP, however, where characters built around AI controlling abilities struggle to deal with circumventing human intelligence. Lots of games, including this one, try to force player behavior by treating taunts as status effects that force a target lock, but that doesn't quite mimic the idea of aggro.

It'd be interesting if tanks were made more of a PvP threat by simply making them aggravating. Forcing the opponent to target the tank for a period of time appears artificial, but I think it'd be interesting if taunt attacks broke the opponent's target lock unless they were targeting the taunter (or someone else who had taunted them) already. If its too much, add a "concentration" style stat that acted as a certain degree of aggravation protection. It would be less forcing the opponent to target the tank and more about annoying the opponent enough to change their target on their own.


 

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Originally Posted by LunarKnight View Post
I think numbers in general, as great as they are, tend to break player immersion significantly. I think players tend to forget that the big monster can't "see" that the mage is doing 134 dps to them, while the tank is "only" doing 74 dps. Clearly they should "see" that the mage is the greater threat, and not the shiny armored guy with the sharp sword that's screaming and flailing in their face. People lose the grasp on the idea that monsters attack that which most aggravates them, not the one that's necessarily the greatest threat.
I've always thought that the way this should be managed is to assume that you can only focus your attention on a limited number of things, and things you aren't paying attention to are by definition a more serious threat (because you can't see what they are doing).

In such a model, the heavily armored thing standing next to you is only doing 74 because you are actively trying to make sure he doesn't squish you, while the guy in the robe far away is doing 134 because you're willing to ignore him for the time being. If you elect to ignore the heavily armored guy and try to shoot at the guy farther away, the heavily armored guy would then squish you for 200.

In CoH terms, tankers would only do less damage than blasters *because* foes paid them proper respect and treated them as the biggest threat, not because they *intrinsicly* did lower damage. They would intrinsicly do similar damage, but that intrinsic damage would never actually land unless they were ignored.

The model in my head for aggro and damage balancing has always been the WW1/WWII statistic that most bullets fired by soldiers were intended to prevent the enemy from shooting back effectively, not to actually kill the target (except by chance). In other words, you shoot at something not just to kill it, but to prevent it from using its offense against you. I think that model would work especially well in CoH. The reason why you attack the tanker is not because of taunt, but in effect to debuff their otherwise substantial damage. They are the biggest threat *logically* and not just because of a game mechanic. And this means (accepting that this is not the only issue in PvP) that even in PvP there's a good reason to attack the tanker rather than the defender on a team. By making it the *intelligent* decision to attack the tanker in PvE, you give them a reason to exist in PvP as well.**


I personally think the combination of reverse-bodyguard and an aggro system like this is so potentially interesting, it might even be worth experimenting with it in a game already well-established like CoH. If it were up to me, I'd introduce it as an optional mechanism: something tankers could opt into, or alternatively a new archetype could be created that used the mechanic, to see if players find it superior to the traditional aggro system. If players actually liked it, I'd kick the current aggro system to the curb.


** Although I'm mentioning tankers, the general principle can work for all archetypes: simply ensure that whenever you want a critter to attack something over something else, you give it a good reason to do so mechanically, so its always the intelligent choice, not just an override. Eventually you build a situational table that says critters should attack the tanker under these situations, the defender under those, the blaster under these others, always because its the best situational choice for that critter.


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Originally Posted by MasConejos View Post
I'm a little late to this party, but I'll post anyway.
Nothing wrong with being a little late. It's good to see a thread like this one go this far on a subject that doesn't involve cheap forum games.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I've always thought that the way this should be managed is to assume that you can only focus your attention on a limited number of things, and things you aren't paying attention to are by definition a more serious threat (because you can't see what they are doing).

In such a model, the heavily armored thing standing next to you is only doing 74 because you are actively trying to make sure he doesn't squish you, while the guy in the robe far away is doing 134 because you're willing to ignore him for the time being. If you elect to ignore the heavily armored guy and try to shoot at the guy farther away, the heavily armored guy would then squish you for 200.

In CoH terms, tankers would only do less damage than blasters *because* foes paid them proper respect and treated them as the biggest threat, not because they *intrinsicly* did lower damage. They would intrinsicly do similar damage, but that intrinsic damage would never actually land unless they were ignored.
That's a really cool model, but how do you handle the all Tanker (or equivilent) team? If an enemy only has so much attention to go around, wouldn't the extra damage from un-countered Tankers trump anything a Blaster could bring to the table?

-D


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I've always thought that the way this should be managed is to assume that you can only focus your attention on a limited number of things, and things you aren't paying attention to are by definition a more serious threat (because you can't see what they are doing).

In such a model, the heavily armored thing standing next to you is only doing 74 because you are actively trying to make sure he doesn't squish you, while the guy in the robe far away is doing 134 because you're willing to ignore him for the time being. If you elect to ignore the heavily armored guy and try to shoot at the guy farther away, the heavily armored guy would then squish you for 200.

In CoH terms, tankers would only do less damage than blasters *because* foes paid them proper respect and treated them as the biggest threat, not because they *intrinsicly* did lower damage. They would intrinsicly do similar damage, but that intrinsic damage would never actually land unless they were ignored.

The model in my head for aggro and damage balancing has always been the WW1/WWII statistic that most bullets fired by soldiers were intended to prevent the enemy from shooting back effectively, not to actually kill the target (except by chance). In other words, you shoot at something not just to kill it, but to prevent it from using its offense against you. I think that model would work especially well in CoH. The reason why you attack the tanker is not because of taunt, but in effect to debuff their otherwise substantial damage. They are the biggest threat *logically* and not just because of a game mechanic. And this means (accepting that this is not the only issue in PvP) that even in PvP there's a good reason to attack the tanker rather than the defender on a team. By making it the *intelligent* decision to attack the tanker in PvE, you give them a reason to exist in PvP as well.**


I personally think the combination of reverse-bodyguard and an aggro system like this is so potentially interesting, it might even be worth experimenting with it in a game already well-established like CoH. If it were up to me, I'd introduce it as an optional mechanism: something tankers could opt into, or alternatively a new archetype could be created that used the mechanic, to see if players find it superior to the traditional aggro system. If players actually liked it, I'd kick the current aggro system to the curb.


** Although I'm mentioning tankers, the general principle can work for all archetypes: simply ensure that whenever you want a critter to attack something over something else, you give it a good reason to do so mechanically, so its always the intelligent choice, not just an override. Eventually you build a situational table that says critters should attack the tanker under these situations, the defender under those, the blaster under these others, always because its the best situational choice for that critter.
Generally I think ideas like reverse bodyguard aren't all that popular simply because they don't animate well. They work mechanically, but they don't appear in an easy to understand manner. Grappling is another common RPG tanking mechanic that requires too much animation work to translate happily into MMOs (though it makes a lot more sense in a superhero game than the fantasy types they normally exist in). Most games with the mechanics don't even do it properly in the first place; usually just dropping squishy damage numbers on tanker HP rather than having the attack actually calculate against the tanker's mitigation. The tanker can't really Bodyguard, even if they want to.

The more damage without aggro concept is interesting. If you need a name for it, I'd call it the Coward's Reward to fit in with the armored knight concept tanking is built around. Run away from me and be struck down is the concept I assume. Solely in PvP though its a very interesting idea, though I'd want to limit ranged options to prevent abusive alpha strikes. Originally I was thinking of it as a sort of universal concept, but as a single inherent style power for a single class it makes a lot of sense. The only thing I'd be completely concerned about is how the system would deal with multi-tank teams and whether that might turn out to be pretty unstoppable.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkonne View Post
That's a really cool model, but how do you handle the all Tanker (or equivilent) team? If an enemy only has so much attention to go around, wouldn't the extra damage from un-countered Tankers trump anything a Blaster could bring to the table?

-D
Hypothetically speaking, tankers would still be limited by having most of their offense be melee instead of ranged, and without taunt there's no mechanism to automatically get critters to foolishly surround you.

You could also manipulate the numbers in conceptually palatable ways to account for teaming situations. For example, blasters could have the offensive advantage that their damage doesn't drop as much when they have "attention" than tankers do, to account for their offensive focus (they are just better at scoring good hits even if you focus on them and try not to get hit). That would allow you to still give blasters enough of an advantage that their offense tended to be superior overall in most circumstances.


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Originally Posted by LunarKnight View Post
Generally I think ideas like reverse bodyguard aren't all that popular simply because they don't animate well. They work mechanically, but they don't appear in an easy to understand manner.
In general, maybe. But City of Heroes already makes the concession that Super Reflexes, and dodging in general, has no consistent animated effects associated with the damage evasion mechanic.

Ironically, the one situation where reverse bodyguard has the best opportunity for visual effect is for the one kind of tanker we don't have: the force field tanker. And I have to believe that the reason we don't have FF tankers is because it would be extremely difficult to make FF tankers that wouldn't stomp all over FF defenders.


Its worth noting that my original suggestion for "reverse-bodyguard" had an extra catch: it would have a relatively low radius. The idea was that right now with the current aggro rules, its counter-intuitively dangerous to stand anywhere near the tanker, because they are drawing all the fire (including AoE fire). I wanted reverse-bodyguard to reverse that, and make the *safest* place to stand be next to the tanker, where reverse bodyguard's effects were strongest. And if players are standing relatively near the tanker, one way to animate RB's effects is to tell the animation system to send visual attacks intended for players under RB to the tanker, so that they "hit" the tanker instead of the player, and then either deflect off or are absorbed by the tanker (as an aside, I wish there was better deflection and absorption animations as well).


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